Rant about flippers

[Drache]

No not what you where to go scuba diving... the people who buy decently priced cars, polish them (if they do anything at all), then relist them for a $6,000 to $10,000 profit...

At least 3 or 4 of the mopars I've looked at were guys who openly admitting to do just that. I know it's a free country at all but it really makes it annoying when the cost of these cars are being inflated by guys trying to make a quick buck.

[cudaken]

You can only inflated the prices of something if someone is willing to pay the prices.

I understand where you are coming from but I have done it a few times. Bought a nice 68 Road Runner that I did not need for $500.00. (Long Time A Go) and sold it to a guy the next week for $1500.00.

Cuda Ken

[1970Moparmann]

Hate to say it.  This is how I built my 68 Charger.   If people get what they want when they sell a car, it is what it is in my book. 

[73rallye440magnum]

I've been on both sides of the fence.

Market price is market price. Just because a buyer got a good deal doesn't mean they need to 'pay it forward' no matter if their intention was to keep or sell.

Sucks when you're in the market to buy though. Gotta get to the deal first! The thrill of the chase...

[Drache]

I've been on both sides of the fence.

Market price is market price. Just because a buyer got a good deal doesn't mean they need to 'pay it forward' no matter if their intention was to keep or sell.

Sucks when you're in the market to buy though. Gotta get to the deal first! The thrill of the chase...

The problem was all the decently priced cars were bought last year and they are all for sale this year at least $5,000 more than what they were bought last year for. It sucks trying to be a buying recognizing all these cars that are now out of your budget. 

[crj1968]

I call it smart. Gotta feed the family and all.  I've been on both sides of it too, you gotta have cash and move fast.

I'd rather flip cars and houses than burgers.

[wingcar]

It's a by-product of "Supply and Demand", and as long as people are willing to pay Barrett-Jackson prices for these cars...it will continue.  It's a game investors pay, which unfortunately pushes a lot of little guys out of the hobby because they can't afford the high prices.   To many that nice Mopar (or whatever the Make) is merely a 401K or investment property...not something to be enjoyed.  Can't really brame someone for wanting to make money on a product that has a high preceded valve....just makes it more of a challenge for many "car guys" when it comes to buying something that has not half rusted to death...

[Aero426]

Some of these wheeler dealer guys just seem to have a knack for salesmanship and psychology.

A fellow found a running and driving Boss 429 Mustang locally, low miles and off the road for many years, but powered by a 385 wedge.     This was a car not actively for sale, but one of  those found through a friend of a friend.   A figure of $20k was discussed to buy the car.   But for some reason the deal was not ready to come together.    Some time passes and the car owner decided to shop the car around a little and got an offer of 32k from another wheeler dealer type.     So when the buyer #1 came back around, the owner told him about the higher offer.    Buyer #1 then lays the guilt trip on the seller about having a gentlemans agreement to buy the car at $20k.   The owner relented and did the deal.     New buyer rushed down and drove the car home in a snowstorm.   He flipped it in a couple of weeks for $130k.     True story.  

[Drache]

Most of the cars I've posted about and had you mopar guys tell me "that car is over priced compared to here" were flipped cars. The problem comes with every day sellers seeing these prices so they sell their cars in prices to match those of the flipper and not their actual worth would be if the flippers weren't there.

[Dino]

Since 'we' are the ones buying the cars, 'we' dictate the market value.  If 9 guys complain the price is too high but the 10th guy buys it then this game will go on and on and on.

There is nothing wrong with buying a car, making it better and selling it for a profit.  That's just business.  Those that do nothing to it but mark up the price AND sell it for that, are the smarter guys.  All profit!  Not fun if you want the car no but can you blame them?  As long as they are not scamming, it's just a way to make a living.

It's all business, try to not take it personally.

I saw your other threads and it looks like you'll have cash in hand to buy, but don't think this makes it easier to find the right car.  You need to think like a dealer and be prepared to jump on a car like they are.  You are looking for a car just for you, the dealers are looking for a car that makes money.  They do not procrastinate either.  I know some of these guys and they usually have bought 2-3 cars before I start thinking about lunch.

Do as I did, I gave up looking at cars so I started placing wanted ads.  That way I found a car that had not been for sale until I made the owner think about that option.

I was the only one who knew about this car and jumped on it.  If it had been for sale before I asked it would've been picked up by someone else.

[Homerr]

Sure, business is business.  And a hobby is a hobby.


Flippers mix business with a hobby and ruin the hobby.   It's that simple.

[Cooter]

Funny how I've been bitching bout this for YEARS, and nobody cared.

Guy above said it best. Flippers mix making money with the hobby and therefore ruin it.
used to be a time when people asked questions about the car because they liked the cars for the cars.
now, it seems the only question I get is how much is this thing worth. It kills me how many people are just mesmerized by the filthy rich and their ability to just piss away insane amounts of money. I guess it's like the lotto where the folks are hoping to strike it rich by finding one of these cars in a barn for peanuts and sell for $500k. I guess one can dream.

Only problem is, even farmer brown watches Fast and ludacris, car whores, Barrett Jackson, etc.
they just happened to own the car through the years when they were nothing but 15 year old used cars.

[ACUDANUT]

No not what you where to go scuba diving... the people who buy decently priced cars, polish them (if they do anything at all), then relist them for a $6,000 to $10,000 profit...

At least 3 or 4 of the mopars I've looked at were guys who openly admitting to do just that. I know it's a free country at all but it really makes it annoying when the cost of these cars are being inflated by guys trying to make a quick buck.

Not what you use, when you go scuba diving.

Fixed it for you crache.

[Mytur Binsdirti]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azEOeTX1LqM

[bill440rt]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqHZWdFVyyQ&noredirect=1

[TUFCAT]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqHZWdFVyyQ&noredirect=1

Now wait just a goddam minute!

What the hell is this?....

a 1977 Mercedes 450 SL for $24,000?!!  Well, that's just TOO F-ING HIGH~  

Yessir, we're just blowing the living sh*t outta high prices!  

[Indygenerallee]

  I sell cars everyday, granted not classics but I have flipped my share. I still have to live it's not like im rich, like those Ass Monkey guys!  

[ws23rt]

Ranting about flippers sounds a bit like envy.   Is it not true that good cars can be had for a lower than the going prices?  We all would jump at a good deal as they come buy if we could.

If we found and made one of those great deals but then found ourselves with no room for the car in our garage or lives selling it comes to mind.

So what's next?  Look for a flipper for quick cash?

[1974dodgecharger]

I would do it if I fund my car now that's broken down...so hell yeah!!!!

[Back N Black]

Every person that ever sold a car is a flipper, no one sell to lose money on the deal. I don't have to tell you how much i paid for it, if you view the car and think its worth the asking price, you buy it.

[ChargerST]

In Europe the Mopar scene is quite small compared to the US so many cars that come up for sale are already known to many people. There is a guy who purchased a 1965 Satellite for not much money (I remember reading that he told the seller a BS story about looking for this car for such a long time, his dream car blablabla) and as soon as he got it he turned around and put it on ebay for almost double what he paid. Well he's been trying to sell the car for months now..no luck so far.

[Aero426]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqHZWdFVyyQ&noredirect=1

Now wait just a goddam minute!

What the hell is this?....

a 1977 Mercedes 450 SL for $24,000?!!  Well, that's just TOO F-ING HIGH~  

Yessir, we're just blowing the living sh*t outta high prices!  

Good clip.

[ODZKing]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqHZWdFVyyQ&noredirect=1

Great Movie
Now wait just a goddam minute!

What the hell is this?....

a 1977 Mercedes 450 SL for $24,000?!!  Well, that's just TOO F-ING HIGH~  

Yessir, we're just blowing the living sh*t outta high prices!  

Good clip.

[ODZKing]

50 bucks never killed anybody!   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QC-R3YUy9Wg

[Homerr]

Envy of flippers has nothing to do with it, that's just way off base.  Disdain comes to mind however.


It's really that the prices of this hobby don't have to be so high, but flippers inflate everything.... I'll guess 30%.  I don't know exactly the total sum that the Mopar hobby is worth each year, so I'll look at $1m slice.  I would suggest that for every $1 million in activity in the hobby the reality is $700k of activity + $300k profits taken by flippers.  I'll further guess that $200k of that $300k profit leaves the hobby and never returns.  We all make up for it by paying a little more.  Basically, too much profit within a system causes inflation.

It's just like Wall Street traders making money every time your money moves around.  There is not really any care that they are skimming off the top of your retirement fund.  A little here, a little there.  Traders exercising 'profit taking' is a maneuver to take your investment and turn that money in to their profit.  They take that money out of the system.  They deserve to get paid, sure, but the scale that they push the system and their own egos is over the top.

The attitude of 'F U I got mine' seems to translate well between Wall Street and flippers.

I think, by definition, the hobbyists here earn money elsewhere and bring that money in to the hobby for the sake of doing it, for the love of craft, for sentimental value.  Not for the sake of profit.  Those expecting to make their money within the hobby are driving the price of everything related to the hobby up while financing their own projects.  And there are those that show up in this hobby realm and make a deal and get out - and that money is gone from the hobby forever.  Finally, as there are many hobbyists which bring a 'money pit' in to this hobby space and lose money - but not enough to balance out the prices going up.


And just to be clear - I would not define anything adding value to a car as flipping.  A $1000 car sitting in a barn that is found, negotiated, towed, cleaned up, advertised, and sold has had value added.  It's subjective, but maybe a seller listing it at $1800-2000 is okay if the car is brought to the market and added to the pool of cars in the hobby - that's between the buyer and seller to work out.  If you've garaged a $5,000 Hemi Charger for the last 30 years and now want to sell it for $100k - go for it, you were a caretaker of the car and deserve to get paid.  Not everyone that made a decent profit is a flipper.

'Flipping' to me implies intent to resell with a high markup without adding value.  

[Old Moparz]

Flippers don't bother me, it's the liars, scammers & scumbags that do.

I've bought a few cars & parts over the years that I was able to make a few bucks from. When I scrounged around in junkyards for things I've needed I would occasionally buy other things to resell if the price was right. I once needed a small block 4V linkage & bracket set up, & found a car that had it along with an aluminum intake manifold that I didn't need. I bought all of it for $35, used the linkage & bracket set up & resold the intake for $35. Nice to get what I needed for basically no out of pocket cost.

One time I was selling a rim blow steering wheel at a swap meet cheap, for $50. Someone I knew asked about it, made an offer of half, saying he was going to put it on his own car. Since I knew the guy I let it him have it cheap & still made some money from it. About 3 weeks later at another swap meet I saw the wheel I sold him at his vending space for $150. Was I mad? Sort of, but I was more disappointed in the fact that I was taken advantage of thinking I was doing someone a favor.    

[toocheaptosmoke]

Flippers don't bother me, it's the liars, scammers & scumbags that do.

I've bought a few cars & parts over the years that I was able to make a few bucks from. When I scrounged around in junkyards for things I've needed I would occasionally buy other things to resell if the price was right. I once needed a small block 4V linkage & bracket set up, & found a car that had it along with an aluminum intake manifold that I didn't need. I bought all of it for $35, used the linkage & bracket set up & resold the intake for $35. Nice to get what I needed for basically no out of pocket cost.

One time I was selling a rim blow steering wheel at a swap meet cheap, for $50. Someone I knew asked about it, made an offer of half, saying he was going to put it on his own car. Since I knew the guy I let it him have it cheap & still made some money from it. About 3 weeks later at another swap meet I saw the wheel I sold him at his vending space for $150. Was I mad? Sort of, but I was more disappointed in the fact that I was taken advantage of thinking I was doing someone a favor.    

That aspect of "flipping" is what seems to be the most infuriating.   In any hobby, if you're into something long enough parts sometimes start finding you.  Plenty of good guys find deals, re-sell to make a buck, sometimes just break even, or maybe give someone else a deal.   It's generally not done in a way to burn bridges.  It's the a-holes that canive and lie just to make a buck that do...

[Cooter]

Envy of flippers has nothing to do with it, that's just way off base.  Disdain comes to mind however.


It's really that the prices of this hobby don't have to be so high, but flippers inflate everything.... I'll guess 30%.  I don't know exactly the total sum that the Mopar hobby is worth each year, so I'll look at $1m slice.  I would suggest that for every $1 million in activity in the hobby the reality is $700k of activity + $300k profits taken by flippers.  I'll further guess that $200k of that $300k profit leaves the hobby and never returns.  We all make up for it by paying a little more.  Basically, too much profit within a system causes inflation.

It's just like Wall Street traders making money every time your money moves around.  There is not really any care that they are skimming off the top of your retirement fund.  A little here, a little there.  Traders exercising 'profit taking' is a maneuver to take your investment and turn that money in to their profit.  They take that money out of the system.  They deserve to get paid, sure, but the scale that they push the system and their own egos is over the top.

The attitude of 'F U I got mine' seems to translate well between Wall Street and flippers.

I think, by definition, the hobbyists here earn money elsewhere and bring that money in to the hobby for the sake of doing it, for the love of craft, for sentimental value.  Not for the sake of profit.  Those expecting to make their money within the hobby are driving the price of everything related to the hobby up while financing their own projects.  And there are those that show up in this hobby realm and make a deal and get out - and that money is gone from the hobby forever.  Finally, as there are many hobbyists which bring a 'money pit' in to this hobby space and lose money - but not enough to balance out the prices going up.


And just to be clear - I would not define anything adding value to a car as flipping.  A $1000 car sitting in a barn that is found, negotiated, towed, cleaned up, advertised, and sold has had value added.  It's subjective, but maybe a seller listing it at $1800-2000 is okay if the car is brought to the market and added to the pool of cars in the hobby - that's between the buyer and seller to work out.  If you've garaged a $5,000 Hemi Charger for the last 30 years and now want to sell it for $100k - go for it, you were a caretaker of the car and deserve to get paid.  Not everyone that made a decent profit is a flipper.

'Flipping' to me implies intent to resell with a high markup without adding value.  

Well said, but remember,it's a hard sell when many are closet flippers and want that new Viper.

[69charger2002]

Envy of flippers has nothing to do with it, that's just way off base.  Disdain comes to mind however.


It's really that the prices of this hobby don't have to be so high, but flippers inflate everything.... I'll guess 30%.  I don't know exactly the total sum that the Mopar hobby is worth each year, so I'll look at $1m slice.  I would suggest that for every $1 million in activity in the hobby the reality is $700k of activity + $300k profits taken by flippers.  I'll further guess that $200k of that $300k profit leaves the hobby and never returns.  We all make up for it by paying a little more.  Basically, too much profit within a system causes inflation.

It's just like Wall Street traders making money every time your money moves around.  There is not really any care that they are skimming off the top of your retirement fund.  A little here, a little there.  Traders exercising 'profit taking' is a maneuver to take your investment and turn that money in to their profit.  They take that money out of the system.  They deserve to get paid, sure, but the scale that they push the system and their own egos is over the top.

The attitude of 'F U I got mine' seems to translate well between Wall Street and flippers.

I think, by definition, the hobbyists here earn money elsewhere and bring that money in to the hobby for the sake of doing it, for the love of craft, for sentimental value.  Not for the sake of profit.  Those expecting to make their money within the hobby are driving the price of everything related to the hobby up while financing their own projects.  And there are those that show up in this hobby realm and make a deal and get out - and that money is gone from the hobby forever.  Finally, as there are many hobbyists which bring a 'money pit' in to this hobby space and lose money - but not enough to balance out the prices going up.


And just to be clear - I would not define anything adding value to a car as flipping.  A $1000 car sitting in a barn that is found, negotiated, towed, cleaned up, advertised, and sold has had value added.  It's subjective, but maybe a seller listing it at $1800-2000 is okay if the car is brought to the market and added to the pool of cars in the hobby - that's between the buyer and seller to work out.  If you've garaged a $5,000 Hemi Charger for the last 30 years and now want to sell it for $100k - go for it, you were a caretaker of the car and deserve to get paid.  Not everyone that made a decent profit is a flipper.

'Flipping' to me implies intent to resell with a high markup without adding value.  

Question for ya buddy.. Theoretically: If you found 5 1969 chargers all at a good price, let's say $4000 each to keep it easy($20,000).. And if you could sell 4 of them for $5000 each($20,000)..so now your 5th car becomes "free" and you get to keep it...essentially having nothing in it, does that make you a bad person? I know LOTS of people on this site, myself included, who basically use this formula(selling cars, parts, whatever)  to help pay for their (expensive) mopar hobby. Disdain or not, I wouldn't have nearly the stuff I have now if it had not been for some good deals coming along over the years. 

[bill440rt]

50 bucks never killed anybody!   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QC-R3YUy9Wg

Even Toby thinks this is the car for you!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REa2DDzChGM

[Drache]

Ok maybe I need to be clear.

Let's say that last summer the going price for a 2nd gen Charger in lets say 90% condition was $15,000 between the US and Canada. There were 20 of them for sale across Canada that summer.

Then a group gets together and buys 15 of those 2nd Gen Chargers and relists them the next summer with no work done to them for $20,000 or more. It's not that the market value has gone up at all due to the economy, they just decided they could sell the cars for more. The last 5 guys who didn't sell their cars see these 15 others for $20,000 and figure their cars are worth that.

So now comes along someone who last year saved up $15,000 to buy a nice 2nd Gen Charger and finds that no one is selling their cars for the amount he saved because a group of flippers raised the market value of their cars.

Now the prices of these cars went up because of a group of guys who did nothing and just wanted to make a straight profit. That is what bugs me.

[Dreamcar]

I tend to think that flippers are not the ones driving prices up, the demand is driving prices up. Lots of people are want an old mopar that's in great shape and driveable. Not everyone has the time, money, and skill to build their own car. But, they have the right to enjoy the "driving" side of the hobby. So, they are more than willing pay someone else who took the time and made the effort to improve a car that needs work. However, that guy or "flipper" needs to eat, so yes, he's going to charge someone what they are are willing to pay. The more the buyers are willing to pay, the more the prices go up.

If you are a seller, flipper or not, it's YOUR responsibility to research what the market is willing to pay, and if you sell too low, then that's your fault. If you're a buyer and can't find anything for the price you want to pay, maybe your expectations as to what a car is worth is wrong.

And, don't forget about location location location...some areas have lots of good old mopars, some don't. The more rare  they are in that area, the higher the price.

[69charger2002]

Ok maybe I need to be clear.

Let's say that last summer the going price for a 2nd gen Charger in lets say 90% condition was $15,000 between the US and Canada. There were 20 of them for sale across Canada that summer.

Then a group gets together and buys 15 of those 2nd Gen Chargers and relists them the next summer with no work done to them for $20,000 or more. It's not that the market value has gone up at all due to the economy, they just decided they could sell the cars for more. The last 5 guys who didn't sell their cars see these 15 others for $20,000 and figure their cars are worth that.

So now comes along someone who last year saved up $15,000 to buy a nice 2nd Gen Charger and finds that no one is selling their cars for the amount he saved because a group of flippers raised the market value of their cars.

Now the prices of these cars went up because of a group of guys who did nothing and just wanted to make a straight profit. That is what bugs me.

I see where you're coming from, but that's not really what's at work here. A year or 2 ago I thought 68-70 charger prices were  a bit down from previous years. In the last 6 months they have really rebounded to-in my opinion- higher than 2006 prices. This is not because a group of dealers or flippers ran out and bought them all last year at cheaper prices. Its simply that the demand is going up for them and the supply isn't getting any greater. I have kept a 68-70 charger ebay search saved for years on my laptop. These days hardly ever are there more than 20-25 68-70's for sale at a given time(there are only 14 right now). Couple years ago, there were many weeks with 40-50 at times for sale at once. This a huge factor in what current prices are reflecting. Of course there are a few that are "inflated" because a dealer bought it and marked it up. But a car is only worth what it sells for. As said before if 9 people think it's not a good deal at $20k, but one person comes along and buys it for $20k, well it's worth $20k today. It doesn't matter if it's a flipper that bought it or not. If the car is worth 20k, it's worth $20k. If a flipper buys it for $20k thinking he can squeeze $25k out of it, and does.. Well that just means the first 9 people missed the boat. Not that the flipper is ruining the hobby by falsely driving prices up. The market will only bear what the supply and demand allows, same with anything.

[ACUDANUT]

Every person that ever sold a car is a flipper, no one sell to lose money on the deal. I don't have to tell you how much i paid for it, if you view the car and think its worth the asking price, you buy it.

Really, so if I sell my old and tired 06 Uplander (that I bought new) I'm a flipper ?

[ODZKing]

You know ... Flipper

[cdr]

this should get this    if it does,, SORRY, we can just let the GOBMENT control the mark up prices the flippers want to sell a car for,that'll  fix the problem. 

[ws23rt]

I can't see flippers controlling the price of our cars unless they bought most of what is for sale and became that old hoarder.

Even then as they try to sell at a high price the cars would only move when the prices matched the demand.

There are many that want to own these cars and would when the price is right.

[RallyeMike]

Flipping = good old American can-do capitalism.

[Old Moparz]

Ok maybe I need to be clear.

Let's say that last summer the going price for a 2nd gen Charger in lets say 90% condition was $15,000 between the US and Canada. There were 20 of them for sale across Canada that summer.

Then a group gets together and buys 15 of those 2nd Gen Chargers and relists them the next summer with no work done to them for $20,000 or more. It's not that the market value has gone up at all due to the economy, they just decided they could sell the cars for more. The last 5 guys who didn't sell their cars see these 15 others for $20,000 and figure their cars are worth that.

So now comes along someone who last year saved up $15,000 to buy a nice 2nd Gen Charger and finds that no one is selling their cars for the amount he saved because a group of flippers raised the market value of their cars.

Now the prices of these cars went up because of a group of guys who did nothing and just wanted to make a straight profit. That is what bugs me.

Drache, if you actually think that groups of guys with lots of money who don't own hand tools to improve old cars are gathering in some back room with secret, collusive plans to buy clusters of old Chargers cheap just to drive up prices & make a huge profit, then you are more delusional than I thought possible.    (I'm kidding, so relax)

I have to agree, if people weren't willing to pay top dollar, sometimes sight unseen for junk & sometimes way more than they should, then there would be reasonably priced cars all over for hobbyists. The flippers would have to go find the next big investment to cash in on. 

[Drache]

Drache, if you actually think that groups of guys with lots of money who don't own hand tools to improve old cars are gathering in some back room with secret, collusive plans to buy clusters of old Chargers cheap just to drive up prices & make a huge profit, then you are more delusional than I thought possible.    (I'm kidding, so relax)

I met three of them. Friends who aren't just buying Chargers, but any mopar they can. All they do is polish the cars up with turtle wax and relist them for $5000 profit or more.

They aren't planning on driving up the costs, but they are certainly helping. I've given offers and a couple mopars in the past couple weeks and more than a couple point out mopars these three are selling stating their cars are in the same shape as those cars so they aren't going to lower their price.

[miller time]

i flipped a jeep from $1100 for a decent non running jeep and parts jeep, to about $2400, but i got 1 running and driving and scrapped the other, if you get a good deal, pass it on and make some jingle for you bill fold, but c'mon if you "rape" someone over a car they absolutely desire, i dont think you deserve to get a good deal on Anything again, especially something they "really realy want", ya know karmas a bi ch, especially on your wallet, but i bought my "basket case" charger because of a wanted add i put on craigslist saying i had $10k and the guy called wanting 8.5k (mabey he only wanted 5k before he saw my add), told him id throw another 1k in to have to mostly put back together, the right deals can make you richer then you wanted
but to this day i thank God my charger found me, even though its a dang money pit, ijs i flipped a coin to see if id sell it and the coin landed leaning against a wall, almost vertical, sometimes overpriced and destiny play the same tune

[ACUDANUT]

This whole world is about flipping something for a profit.  Look at our tv shows: Counting Cars, American Pickers, Pawn Stars, Storage Hunters ect. They buy cheap and triple their money.

[Homerr]

....

Question for ya buddy.. Theoretically: If you found 5 1969 chargers all at a good price, let's say $4000 each to keep it easy($20,000).. And if you could sell 4 of them for $5000 each($20,000)..so now your 5th car becomes "free" and you get to keep it...essentially having nothing in it, does that make you a bad person? I know LOTS of people on this site, myself included, who basically use this formula(selling cars, parts, whatever)  to help pay for their (expensive) mopar hobby. Disdain or not, I wouldn't have nearly the stuff I have now if it had not been for some good deals coming along over the years. 

I don't think this example is flipping.  There is profit being had, yes, but if they were relisted at $8k each I would call flipping.  Anywhere in between could be a gray area.

Also, this example addresses supply - 5 Chargers being owned by one person.  That's a decent amount of Chargers to be put out on the market.  Now, your example presumes that the 5 are going to separate owners each owning 1 Charger.  Those individuals are more likely to start restoring the cars and being part of the hobby vs. 1 owner with 5 cars to restore.  I'm presuming at this price point they are in need of restoration.  But even for drivers at a higher price point: more Chargers = more Charger love.


As for a conspiracy of Mopar flippers.... I'm more skeptical.  However, in the Northwest here there is the well known guy in Portland (Mike iirc, never met him but seen plenty of his ads) that has pretty much tried to lock up the Charger market (and any other Mopar I think) for anything within a few hundred miles in the sub-$10k market.  He's driven prices up locally here in Washington and Oregon all by himself by a few thousand dollars.


Also:

[Homerr]

i flipped a jeep from $1100 for a decent non running jeep and parts jeep, to about $2400, but i got 1 running and driving and scrapped the other, if you get a good deal, pass it on and make some jingle for you bill fold, but c'mon if you "rape" someone over a car they absolutely desire, i dont think you deserve to get a good deal on Anything again, especially something they "really realy want", ya know karmas a bi ch, especially on your wallet, but i bought my "basket case" charger because of a wanted add i put on craigslist saying i had $10k and the guy called wanting 8.5k (mabey he only wanted 5k before he saw my add), told him id throw another 1k in to have to mostly put back together, the right deals can make you richer then you wanted
but to this day i thank God my charger found me, even though its a dang money pit, ijs i flipped a coin to see if id sell it and the coin landed leaning against a wall, almost vertical, sometimes overpriced and destiny play the same tune

I wouldn't call your Jeep example flipping either.  A non-running car is worth way less than a runner, and anyone without a trailer pretty much isn't even a potential buyer so the market is that much smaller.  You added value and made it a runner.

[Ghoste]

Flippers don't set the price, the selling figure does.  When I think of the term "flipper" I think of the scumbags in the hobby.  The guy who maybe doesn't even like Mopars but knows where a good example is and lies to the family to get it as cheap as he can.  "I promise I'll restore it and keep it forever I just have no money and I've always wanted one so please have pity on me, I'm sure your grandfather who bought it new would want someone who loves it as much as me would tell you to sell it to me, I'll never ever sell it".  And the next day its listed.  Maybe even listed before he bought it in some cases.

[1974dodgecharger]

I once flipped my transmission.....

[Cooter]

A flipper imo, is one who as soon as a good deal hits em, instead of their first thought being "wow, can't believe I scored my dream car for this", thoughts of profit take hold.

[crj1968]

A flipper imo, is one who as soon as a good deal hits em, instead of their first thought being "wow, can't believe I scored my dream car for this", thoughts of profit take hold.

Yeah but who wouldn't do this?  I could care less about Chevelles but I know the market and if I can be the first one to show up with $10K on a $15k car then what's the problem?  If I was filthy rich I wouldn't waste my time, but since I'm not, should pass on picking up an honest 5 grand?

Every used car dealer in the country is a "flipper"

[Chad L. Magee]

....

Question for ya buddy.. Theoretically: If you found 5 1969 chargers all at a good price, let's say $4000 each to keep it easy($20,000).. And if you could sell 4 of them for $5000 each($20,000)..so now your 5th car becomes "free" and you get to keep it...essentially having nothing in it, does that make you a bad person? I know LOTS of people on this site, myself included, who basically use this formula(selling cars, parts, whatever)  to help pay for their (expensive) mopar hobby. Disdain or not, I wouldn't have nearly the stuff I have now if it had not been for some good deals coming along over the years. 

I don't think this example is flipping.  There is profit being had, yes, but if they were relisted at $8k each I would call flipping.  Anywhere in between could be a gray area.

Also, this example addresses supply - 5 Chargers being owned by one person.  That's a decent amount of Chargers to be put out on the market.  Now, your example presumes that the 5 are going to separate owners each owning 1 Charger.  Those individuals are more likely to start restoring the cars and being part of the hobby vs. 1 owner with 5 cars to restore.  I'm presuming at this price point they are in need of restoration.  But even for drivers at a higher price point: more Chargers = more Charger love.


As for a conspiracy of Mopar flippers.... I'm more skeptical.  However, in the Northwest here there is the well known guy in Portland (Mike iirc, never met him but seen plenty of his ads) that has pretty much tried to lock up the Charger market (and any other Mopar I think) for anything within a few hundred miles in the sub-$10k market.  He's driven prices up locally here in Washington and Oregon all by himself by a few thousand dollars.


Also:

Thirty years ago, there was a local guy very much like the one you mentioned (Jerry was his name).  He bought up almost every muscle Mopar car he could get his hands on in a 150+ mile radius around his home town.  Finding vintage Mopars in my area after he did that was looking for hens teeth.  He eventually sold out and crushed many of the parts cars when the market was down (2000).  I was lucking in finding the few "scraps" that escaped his grasp during that era.... 

[polywideblock]

I think its all about supply and demand, 6 months ago if you searched for a 70 charger  for example there were about 10 on ebay + others on "cars online" and "autabuy" . now there are 4 on ebay a couple  on "cars online" and a few in" autabuy ". it has gone from a choice from lets say 17 cars to a choice between 10 cars  ,demand for this model has pushed the prices up 2-3 K  in just 6 months  . on the other hand 3rd gen Plymouths seem to have stayed at the same price or dropped a bit   
you also have a lot of overseas buyers wanting to get into the hobby ,this is where the "undesirable element" comes into play  people like "American muscle cars"  listing a 71 gtx with a vin sticker off another car    someone that doesn't know how to do the homework will get burned 

still say we need a sticky  with bad dealers etc listed so that if someone has gone to the trouble of googleing their name (dealership) it will come up

[Dino]

I think its all about supply and demand, 6 months ago if you searched for a 70 charger  for example there were about 10 on ebay + others on "cars online" and "autabuy" . now there are 4 on ebay a couple  on "cars online" and a few in" autabuy ". it has gone from a choice from lets say 17 cars to a choice between 10 cars  ,demand for this model has pushed the prices up 2-3 K  in just 6 months  . on the other hand 3rd gen Plymouths seem to have stayed at the same price or dropped a bit   
you also have a lot of overseas buyers wanting to get into the hobby ,this is where the "undesirable element" comes into play  people like "American muscle cars"  listing a 71 gtx with a vin sticker off another car    someone that doesn't know how to do the homework will get burned 

still say we need a sticky  with bad dealers etc listed so that if someone has gone to the trouble of googleing their name (dealership) it will come up

[Cooter]

A flipper imo, is one who as soon as a good deal hits em, instead of their first thought being "wow, can't believe I scored my dream car for this", thoughts of profit take hold.

Yeah but who wouldn't do this?  I could care less about Chevelles but I know the market and if I can be the first one to show up with $10K on a $15k car then what's the problem?  If I was filthy rich I wouldn't waste my time, but since I'm not, should pass on picking up an honest 5 grand?

Every used car dealer in the country is a "flipper"

We all know how used car dealers are viewed. It'll just be sweet when flippers are trusted just the same.
almost everybody I meet today at shows only ask about my junk because they wanna hear how much potential money they "could" make.
sad day indeed. Instead of car shows/cruise nights, maybe they should call them what's it worth shows/nights??
Used to be a time when the CARS were the draw, not what some asshats said they are worth on TV.

[Ghoste]

The asshat part bugs me even more than the value part Cooter.  Most of the expert commentators on tv are no more an authority than anyone else and yet once their image is broadcast they become a "respected expert in the field".
One of the "reality" shows filmed several episodes at some of our auctions used to come in several days ahead of the actual auction to choose their cars and write a script.  Then filming would begin where they would walk around and "discover" these cars by chance and the expert would rattle off the script like he was an auto encyclopedia.  Then they would film two endings for the experts opinion of what the car would do on the block so that all that was left was to film the car and the follow with the expert going "exactly as I knew it would".  Edit the works and send it out and he looks like a respected authority.
Reality tv, sheesh. 

[Cooter]

True power lies not in the truth sadly, but the ability to spread misinformation and because you have an audience that agrees, it becomes "law".
That's how those two "Christine" clones got to be "official", the three or four that asked questions where simply discredited as "haters". As many times I have been here on certain subjects. Does it mean the lone one who disagrees is wrong automatically? Or does it mean there are a whole lot of stupid people willing to believe sh*t because it's what everybody else is doing??
Unfortunately, we live in a media driven society now. Common sense need not apply. Just believe cause everybody else is....

Sadly, I cannot believe how many people in this very hobby are just so enamored with the stupid rich and the dumbass spending habits of afore mentioned.  People are fascinated with insane money for musclecars.  Just today on FB, one guy was willing to buy a new Charger/Dart/whatever, simply due to over inflated musclecar prices.

[polywideblock]

The asshat part bugs me even more than the value part Cooter.  Most of the expert commentators on tv are no more an authority than anyone else and yet once their image is broadcast they become a "respected expert in the field".
One of the "reality" shows filmed several episodes at some of our auctions used to come in several days ahead of the actual auction to choose their cars and write a script.  Then filming would begin where they would walk around and "discover" these cars by chance and the expert would rattle off the script like he was an auto encyclopedia.  Then they would film two endings for the experts opinion of what the car would do on the block so that all that was left was to film the car and the follow with the expert going "exactly as I knew it would".  Edit the works and send it out and he looks like a respected authority.
Reality tv, sheesh. 

was that show "whats my car worth " by any chance   

[ACUDANUT]

The asshat part bugs me even more than the value part Cooter.  Most of the expert commentators on tv are no more an authority than anyone else and yet once their image is broadcast they become a "respected expert in the field".
One of the "reality" shows filmed several episodes at some of our auctions used to come in several days ahead of the actual auction to choose their cars and write a script.  Then filming would begin where they would walk around and "discover" these cars by chance and the expert would rattle off the script like he was an auto encyclopedia.  Then they would film two endings for the experts opinion of what the car would do on the block so that all that was left was to film the car and the follow with the expert going "exactly as I knew it would".  Edit the works and send it out and he looks like a respected authority.
Reality tv, sheesh. 

I agree !!

[Ghoste]

The asshat part bugs me even more than the value part Cooter.  Most of the expert commentators on tv are no more an authority than anyone else and yet once their image is broadcast they become a "respected expert in the field".
One of the "reality" shows filmed several episodes at some of our auctions used to come in several days ahead of the actual auction to choose their cars and write a script.  Then filming would begin where they would walk around and "discover" these cars by chance and the expert would rattle off the script like he was an auto encyclopedia.  Then they would film two endings for the experts opinion of what the car would do on the block so that all that was left was to film the car and the follow with the expert going "exactly as I knew it would".  Edit the works and send it out and he looks like a respected authority.
Reality tv, sheesh. 

was that show "whats my car worth " by any chance   

It would be unethical for me to confirm that.

[polywideblock]

 Lorraine McKinley  is hot     

[Challenger340]

I can't see hating the "Flippers".... they are merely just participating in free market capitalism with supply and demand.
But if you do....
Get equally pissed off at the "maroons" PAYING those prices ?

[Troy]

There are lots of guys who buy a car and then sell to someone who offers them a much higher price than they paid. Are they "flippers"? Or is it all about intent? I have made money on almost every classic car I've sold (or I'd likely still have them in my garage). Of course, I have improved most of them while I owned them as well so I was smart about making improvements that would increase value more than they cost. I also generally only sell when I find something I want more. I know a lot of guys who buy poorly running cars, give them a tuneup, and make $1,000. Not classics but they use their mechanical skills and take advantage of opportunities. If the market wouldn't support the selling price then there'd be a lot of cars staying with their owners.

I believe the original rant is about people who buy, do nothing, then immediately sell for a profit. I see nothing wrong with it. Funny thing is, if the car were listed at a price higher than what you were willing to pay, but a "flipper" negotiates a better deal then sells it for your price then why would you be mad? You could still purchase the car at your price BUT also had the same opportunity to get it for less! Flippers, in general, are better negotiators and are more likely to make a profit. It's a LOT of work though! To sell at a higher price than normal the flipper needs to expand/change the market, be a great salesman, or buy low (likely all three). Flippers have do deal with buyers all the time - something I have a strong dislike of.

So, basically, I'm not entirely concerned with the money involved. Cars are expensive! I do have issues with people who tell sob stories (lies mostly) to negotiate a cheap price OR to pry a car/part away from an owner who is unwilling to sell. This is very common and very shady. We've all heard something similar to "I want this car because my dad had one just like it. Unfortunately I can't pay what you're asking." A few weeks later you see your pride and joy listed for $10-15k more than what you let it go for. When asked, there's always a sob story involved: "my wife lost her job" or something similar. If it were really an emergency the price wouldn't have gone up!

Thousands - probably hundreds of thousands - of businesses in this country make all their profits from the resale of used goods. While it may be a "hobby" for some, nearly all hobbies are supported by businesses. Unless you're whittling wood. Even then you likely bought a knife from someone - or a sharpening stone if you're using an heirloom.

If the prices of these cars hadn't risen significantly there would have never been a market for reproduction parts. It wasn't long ago that we were fighting over a dwindling supply of NOS and nice junkyard parts. So, while the cost to buy a car seems like it has gone up, the cost to build/finish a car has gone down drastically. Some girl ran a stop sign and crashed into my first 68 Charger in the mid 80s. Even then, I had to scour the junk yards for a fender and front bumper. The situation was certainly not any better 20 years later when I started buying old cars again!

Troy

[Mytur Binsdirti]

I have made money on almost every classic car I've sold

So, you're one of them.....

[ACUDANUT]

I always lose money on cars I sell. Does that make you feel better.? 

[Mytur Binsdirti]

The beef here seems to be mainly with hobbyists that flips classic cars, but any legitimate dealership that buys and sells cars would also fall under the same category. But back to the hobbyist..... What's the problem with a person who has enough money to buy a particular car and has the foresight to see an opportunity and make a few bucks from it? If all parties involved are happy with the transaction(s), what business is it of anyone else? 

[polywideblock]

think this is more about how much the costs of our "hobby" have risen in the last 12 months 

[bakerhillpins]

I always lose money on cars I sell. Does that make you feel better.?  

I suspect that's because you put money into them... not something that most flippers do.

Lorraine McKinley  is hot    

OMG you are not kidding.     But the outfits that they put her in on that show.  

[TUFCAT]

Lorraine's a true car chick who loves cars from what I hear, ....plus she owns/drives a Harley.

[myk]

Flipping may not be cool to us but in theory there's nothing wrong with it.  In fact, that's just business plain and simple.  For example; you don't really think that jack and coke costs $7 do you?  That establishment bought the jack daniels, cola and the glass for pennies; they turn around and "flip" it to the public for $7, a NICE profit.  That's not unethical, dirty, underhanded, it's just business.  Car dealers do the same thing; they buy cars en masse on the cheap and then sell it to "us" for considerably more.  Again, that's not evil or immoral, it's just business.  Yes, I think it's annoying but again, there's nothing wrong with it...

[Drache]

Flipping may not be cool to us but in theory there's nothing wrong with it.  In fact, that's just business plain and simple.  For example; you don't really think that jack and coke costs $7 do you?  That establishment bought the jack daniels, cola and the glass for pennies; they turn around and "flip" it to the public for $7, a NICE profit.  That's not unethical, dirty, underhanded, it's just business.  Car dealers do the same thing; they buy cars en masse on the cheap and then sell it to "us" for considerably more.  Again, that's not evil or immoral, it's just business.  Yes, I think it's annoying but again, there's nothing wrong with it...

That doesn't really work the same. A bar has overhead costs such as employees to pay, lights, heat, music, rent, etc.

But let's think of it a different way.

I go and buy up all bars, Jack Daniels and Coke in your entire state. Now I start selling your normally $7 Jack and Cokes, for $12 a glass. A new bar opens up owned by someone else who just happened to have had a stash of Jack and Coke in their warehouse hidden away. They see I'm selling my Jack and Cokes for $12 and figure that's the going rate so they charge $12. Now they could sell their for less but like you said, everyone wants to make a profit.

Didn't I just create an artificial inflation for the worth of that product?

[Old Moparz]

Flipping may not be cool to us but in theory there's nothing wrong with it.  In fact, that's just business plain and simple.  For example; you don't really think that jack and coke costs $7 do you?  That establishment bought the jack daniels, cola and the glass for pennies; they turn around and "flip" it to the public for $7, a NICE profit.  That's not unethical, dirty, underhanded, it's just business.  Car dealers do the same thing; they buy cars en masse on the cheap and then sell it to "us" for considerably more.  Again, that's not evil or immoral, it's just business.  Yes, I think it's annoying but again, there's nothing wrong with it...

That doesn't really work the same. A bar has overhead costs such as employees to pay, lights, heat, music, rent, etc.

But let's think of it a different way.

I go and buy up all bars, Jack Daniels and Coke in your entire state. Now I start selling your normally $7 Jack and Cokes, for $12 a glass. A new bar opens up owned by someone else who just happened to have had a stash of Jack and Coke in their warehouse hidden away. They see I'm selling my Jack and Cokes for $12 and figure that's the going rate so they charge $12. Now they could sell their for less but like you said, everyone wants to make a profit.

Didn't I just create an artificial inflation for the worth of that product?

No, you broke the law.

http://www.justice.gov/atr/public/guidelines/211578.htm

[myk]

Flipping may not be cool to us but in theory there's nothing wrong with it.  In fact, that's just business plain and simple.  For example; you don't really think that jack and coke costs $7 do you?  That establishment bought the jack daniels, cola and the glass for pennies; they turn around and "flip" it to the public for $7, a NICE profit.  That's not unethical, dirty, underhanded, it's just business.  Car dealers do the same thing; they buy cars en masse on the cheap and then sell it to "us" for considerably more.  Again, that's not evil or immoral, it's just business.  Yes, I think it's annoying but again, there's nothing wrong with it...

That doesn't really work the same. A bar has overhead costs such as employees to pay, lights, heat, music, rent, etc.

But let's think of it a different way.

I go and buy up all bars, Jack Daniels and Coke in your entire state. Now I start selling your normally $7 Jack and Cokes, for $12 a glass. A new bar opens up owned by someone else who just happened to have had a stash of Jack and Coke in their warehouse hidden away. They see I'm selling my Jack and Cokes for $12 and figure that's the going rate so they charge $12. Now they could sell their for less but like you said, everyone wants to make a profit.

Didn't I just create an artificial inflation for the worth of that product?

If any "one" person or company could be held accountable for buying "all" or "most" of the classic cars in the market and then selling these cars for an inflated value then "maybe" something unethical could be indicated, but until then all we have are private sellers and small businesses that are trying to make a profit buy purchasing a car, maybe two or three at a time and then selling it for a profit.  That's not criminal, that's just the free market system.

As for my jack and coke example, yes I have overhead costs but it doesn't change the fact that I procure those products for pennies on the dollar compared to what I sell it for.  Now, if I were to hoard all of the jack and coke and THEN inflate the prices that would/should be considered unethical, but frankly I don't see Coca Cola and Jack Daniels just selling to me.  Again, I'm just another entity in a sea of entities that is buying and selling with the intention of making as much profit as I can, just like with classic cars and their flippers.

Now do "I" personally wish the craziness with classic cars would die out?  Sure I do.  I don't like the idea of paying any more for these cars and their over-priced parts any more than you do, but that's just selfishness on my part; the market is what it is....

[Drache]

No, you broke the law.

http://www.justice.gov/atr/public/guidelines/211578.htm

How so? If I OWN the stores I'm not Price Fixing with competitors.

[bakerhillpins]

No, you broke the law.

http://www.justice.gov/atr/public/guidelines/211578.htm

How so? If I OWN the stores I'm not Price Fixing with competitors.

Actually, at first you owned a monopoly, and then well, if they are charging the same then that's probably the market unless you guys are colluding or can't sell it and it goes flat. Then you got nothing for your money. Kinda like letting them rot in a field. 

[1974dodgecharger]

I want to FLIP cars myself.....where do I start?

[Cooter]

Nobody seems to mind until they see a roach of a Charger selling for $4k.
I hear screaming and ranting about how there's nothing there, how can people be so crazy, not worth it, etc.

Wonder how/when a rust bucket 68 4speed car became so valuable, when just 20 short years ago they were barely worth crush money/time.....
I don't think anybody has a problem with selling for more than you paid....everybody has done it. I think the real problem is that being tge entire reason your in the hobby at all. Your driving up prices and setting markets because one idiot was willing to overpay.
all of a sudden that's the new 'market'?

It should be about the cars and not about the money.
no problem, as I was here before the flippers, I was here while they raped the hobby, and I'll be here picking up tge pieces long after the greedy have moved on to the next best thing.

[Ghoste]

There is the point to consider that if the cars were still worthless, the reproduction and aftermarket parts industry would never have given us the support they do.

[TUFCAT]

There is the point to consider that if the cars were still worthless, the reproduction and aftermarket parts industry would never have given us the support they do.

TRUE THAT!!