3d printing

[bulleteater]

Has anybody here thought of or tried the 3d printing for things like maybe the headlight doors? I know how hard those are to come by and I had this great idea haha just don't know if I'm thinking in the clouds or wishful thinking or what.. I've seen a few 3d printers online for a couple thousand dollars and I was thinking of investing in one.. I just don't want to waste the money if it won't work..

[held1823]

i've been wondering the same thing about nose cones

[Aero426]

3d printing will allow you to make a prototype or duplicate of something.   But the material will not be suitable as a replacement for an injection molded factory part. 

[E5 Charger]

I agree, but they can be used to make a mold of the part. Also a new 3D printer that uses carbon fibre will be available this summer.

[bulleteater]

Hmmm well I thought it was a good idea lol but.. A carbon fiber material would be a good alternative.. But I'll bet that would be really pricey But possible

[ACUDANUT]

 3d printing ? What does it print ? Do you need 3D glasses ?

[Indygenerallee]

http://youtu.be/G0EJmBoLq-g

[cudaken]

 I first learned about 3 D printing few years ago, pretty amazing stuff. Some of the folks at a model train site I go to have started making there own rolling stock and engine parts.

With the right plastic, I see no reason you could not make a Charger Grill.

Cuda Ken

[hawkeye]

I read an article the other day were they were using 3D printing to make exact pieces of skull bone.  Must be some of it is pretty durable.  http://singularityhub.com/2014/03/30/patients-cranium-replaced-with-custom-3d-printed-implant/

[E5 Charger]

There are different plastics available. One being ABS. Lego is made of ABS and is super durable. The printers have come down in price, I think about $2000 now, but can only be used to print small items. There are a lot of plans that can be downloaded free. Check out this link. http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:288322  You can download an app that lets you customize the plans. A few tweaks to the grommet and it can be used on our cars.
If you go to the Explore tab at the top of the site, then Categories, and finally tools, you will see a bunch of cool things.

[Indygenerallee]

You can buy 3D printers off Ebay for around $1000

[Dino]

Does anyone know any actual cost AFTER printer purchase?  I know there is a variety of media to use so lets assume we are trying to replicate a missing interior part or one of those plastic clips that holds the headlight vacuum hoses to the inner fender. 

The very first time I saw a 3D printer at work was when it printed, I believe, a water pump part for one of Leno's early cars.  I'm not sure what type of media to use on that but something tells me it wouldn't be cheap.

[68X426]

I've read that we are still 10 years away from practical and "affordable" production.  The momentum isn't there yet but when it happens it will be rapid.  Mostly tied to the cost of the media (very sophisticated and expensive plastics).  Sorry I don't know which plastics or how costly.

[John_Kunkel]

It's not all plastic anymore, metal 3D printers are now available.

[daveco]

3d printers for $1000 is sorta like saying cars cost $1000.
A "printed" headlight door that would pass as suitably durable and with acceptable aesthetics would cost more than a nice original.

[Indygenerallee]

daveco, better do some research before doing any typing.... Here is a cheaper one for $750.00..

http://www.ebay.com/itm/3D-printer-dual-extruder-New-Extruder-Dual-nozzle-W-2-Abs-or-Pla-Spools-/131116967431?pt=COMP_Printers&hash=item1e872e2607

[daveco]

I understand there are cheap printers out there, the capabilities of those printers are very limited.

[ACUDANUT]

They don't really "print", but produce a part.   You have to agree, 'printing" is misleading. They need a new name for it.    Maybe 3d part maker. 

[green69rt]

Just a few thoughts as I have looked around about 3D printing.

1. Yes, the printer cost is coming down but still pretty high for a printer that will handle a large object.
2. Printer cost is only part of the problem, print time for a complex part is long so that drives the cost up.
3. Finish is important, if you have to spend a lot of manhours to sand the part down it drives up costs.
4. You need a program to input to the printer.  Our grills are very complex and the manhours to generate the program are huge, (means more $$)

Things are getting better but are they there yet?   maybe, maybe not....

[ws23rt]

A proper scanner would bring the cost of generating a program down.  I recall reading about that as being in the infant stage as the printers are.

Surly they will improve together. 

[hatersaurusrex]

You guys have nothing to worry about.  There was a guy on the 'Mopars under $1500' page who said he had a dash guy who could make new dashes for anything for $200.   He also said you could have perfect restore from a stripped roller for 20K on a 69 Charger, and that after 2 years he would have had mine on the road in perfect shape.

I don't know about you guys, but I believe him, and I'm waiting with a pile of money for when he's available again.  Think how long I've been wasting money on this car!!!! Good thing I learned my lesson...

[Old Moparz]

Funny, I remember a similar topic to this a couple of years ago, it had a link to a video showing a wrench being made. I can't find the topic now, or remember if I started it, but I said making car parts was feasible & I think 99% of the people who commented said, "3D Printers will never make car parts or ever be afforable!"  

Build Your Own 3D Printer.


At my kid's high school there was a project in one of the science classes where they built a 3D printer. When I was there during an open house event, it was on display & in the process of actually printing an object.


Keeping it within the automotive topic, Jay Leno reproduces template parts he needs with his own 3D printer....

Jay's Printer.

[held1823]

my $$$ says the day is coming

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1zV8JMwrvs

[JB400]

The grille on this Camaro was "printed"

http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=37183&page=36


So, yes, it's possible.  How much coin  

[nihil]

Old thread, but I figure I can offer some input. I've been playing with 3D printers for a couple years now, and making parts for cars was one of the big motivators for me to get into it. It turns out, a 3D printer is something like the worlds most versatile hammer, and suddenly every situation starts looking like a nail. While I haven't yet printed anything for the Charger, I've printed parts for several other cars.

The cheapest method to start out with is FDM/Fused Deposition Modeling (squirting melted plastic in layers). This is the type I have and generally the easiest to get into on a hobby level. If you source your own parts and are adept at building stuff, you can turn out a fully functional printer for as little as $200. I have about 10x that in my machine, but I tend to go overboard on my toys. Print quality depends a lot more on build quality than it does cost. A well built $200 machine will outperform a halfassed $2000 machine any day of the week.

Materials cost has a pretty wide range. The two most common plastic filament types are ABS and PLA, and can be had from $20 to $40 per kilogram(2.2lbs) retail. There are more exotic filaments that can cost upwards $120 a pound. How much you spend for any given part depends on the size of the part and the density of the infill.

If you really want to drop some cash you can get into a SLS/SLM (Selective Laser Sintering/Selective Laser Melting) type machine that uses a high power laser to fuse layers of a powdered substrate to construct the part. You can fuse a wide variety of materials with this method, plastics, ceramics, glass, metal, or any other material that bonds to itself with a suitable application of heat. But the type of material you can work with is almost directionally proportional to how much you spend on your laser and optics. More power is more expensive.

There are other methods of additive manufacturing, but FDM and SL are by far the two most widely used. I'll try not to sound too preach'y, but it really is the proverbial "way of the future". It's not the end-all/be-all of manufacturing techniques, but it will play a huge part in the way consumers obtain goods in the future. My machine has already paid for itself and then some, and I get higher quality objects that were either tailored specifically to my application by designing them myself, or publicly available designs that are a lot more situation specific than the typical commercial "design for the lowest common denominator to maximize profit margin" approach.

If anyone has any questions or would like to know more, just say the word. I'm more than happy to talk about my toys.

[green69rt]

nihil,  how does the finish look on the end product?  I talked to a guy doing some car parts and one problem he had was getting the part ready for paint, it took considerabla sanding.  The other problem with our grills is the size of the parts, machines are getting bigger but that means more cost.  Just batting the idea around....

[nihil]

The finish varies depending on nozzle size, layer height, type of filament, temperature and speed you print at, and of course the quality of the mechanics moving the nozzle around. I typically print at a 0.2mm layer height, as it's a nice balance between speed and quality.

I recently did some tail light housings for the G, but due to their size I had to print them up on end. Since I used ABS, and the woman came home and opened the back door, it caused some asymmetric cooling of the part mid-print that resulted in some cracking/layer separation. I wasn't too bothered since I was going to finish them anyway. Sand it enough to give it a nice key, hit it with some sandable primer, and I ended up going with a spray on rubberized type coating. But pictures can show the difference a lot better than words will. Apologies for the large pictures, but it's the best way to see detail.

Before finishing:


And after finishing:


Cheapo DOT approved LED modules from HF, several hours in design, and several more hours printing, and I ended up with something I think looks a lot better than the $500+ aftermarket LED lights available for that truck. I prefer a more utilitarian look for a utilitarian vehicle, and the aftermarket stuff was "bling" and trashy looking.

There are other ways to finish parts, and for ABS you can achieve an interesting effect with an acetone vapor bath. Put the part in an enclosed container with some acetone, heat it, and let the evaporated acetone evenly eat away the outer layers of the part. Here's a good example of layer height vs. acetone vapor:


I generally prefer ABS or nylon for automotive use, as PLA (polylactic acid) is biodegradable and wont hold up to the elements as well.


Size is a definite concern. I have one of the larger hobby grade printers on the market, and if I were to print a grille for my Mopar, I would do it in multiple prints, then bond the pieces together using ABS as an adhesion agent. Instead of acting like a glue, it melts the plastic and evaporates, leaving the resulting joint stronger than the rest of the part. Careful application keeps it looking seamless. A full grille print would probably take a week or more. Those two tail light housings took around 24 hours, and I have my machine set up and tweaked to print faster than most.

[ws23rt]

  Thanks for your post.  This is something that will move faster as time passes.

[Windsor]

While I don't know much about the process, I do see a market for it in the future. Cars like my '40 are hard to find parts for, and a few guys that I know are missing dash trim. I looked into having a shop CNC some, using mine for measurements, then they quoted me $1300 per piece (gauge trim). That put an end to that idea.
I watched Jeff Dunham: Birth of a Dummy. He had a cool laser scanner that scanned a model and loaded it onto a computer which allowed for tweaking size and design. Something like that would be really cool to do custom work on the parts.

[nihil]

Thanks for your post.  This is something that will move faster as time passes.

It's gaining momentum at probably the most impressive pace of any new technology I've ever seen. I typically adopt new technologies early. Assuming patent trolls (*cough*makerbot,stratasys,3ds*cough*) don't ruin it, 3D printing will be a game changer.

While I don't know much about the process, I do see a market for it in the future. Cars like my '40 are hard to find parts for, and a few guys that I know are missing dash trim. I looked into having a shop CNC some, using mine for measurements, then they quoted me $1300 per piece (gauge trim). That put an end to that idea.
I watched Jeff Dunham: Birth of a Dummy. He had a cool laser scanner that scanned a model and loaded it onto a computer which allowed for tweaking size and design. Something like that would be really cool to do custom work on the parts.

I've built a couple laser scanners, and while they definitely have a cool factor, they can be a pain in the ass if you don't scan in a controlled environment. Unless of course you want to fork out a sizable amount of cash on the bleeding edge commercial hardware.

[cudaken]

If you watch Jay Leno Garage you will see what he has done with them. I am sure Jay has the highest end stuff that can be bought!

Cuda Ken

[meryan00]

I figured I should put my input into here as well, overall I agree very much with what nihil has said.  I run a 3d printing and laser cutting side business.  I run 2 printers right now, both from Makerstoolworks, with a 3rd being built from parts.  

While size is the immediate concern for most car parts simple because cars have so many large parts, the sheer number of options available you can print is staggering,  Material choice would of course depend on your application and what kind of temperatures or elements the material comes in contact with.  For example ABS is a ideal easy to print material that can be smoothed with vapor then clear matte sprayed for a smooth non gloss finish with minimal work, If however you need something for example to put in an engine bay then ABS and Nylon may not be able to hold up to the temp swing.  There is also a Polycarbonate material that can be printed and requires a 300C print temp which is over 570F so it is able to withstand those temps much better.

The scanning option is also a good in theory, I have built a Laser scanner and a projector based scanner to replicate parts.  Both can work well when done right, the main issue is that cars are lot of shiny surfaces and the scanners want a matte surface to reduce reflections and increase accuracy.  There are a few options to to that temporary but its never as good as actual spray paint.

Overall I love the 3dprinting community as there is a large sense of self-reliability and a huge acceptance of ideas from any member no matter the history.  For wanting to get into a new hobby it can be done for under $400, although that printer is only big enough to print toys really, takes more money to get one big enough to be useful in automotive.

[Windsor]

If you watch Jay Leno Garage you will see what he has done with them. I am sure Jay has the highest end stuff that can be bought!

Cuda Ken

He probably has stuff that can't be bought by anyone else.

[green69rt]

I figured I should put my input into here as well, overall I agree very much with what nihil has said.  I run a 3d printing and laser cutting side business.  I run 2 printers right now, both from Makerstoolworks, with a 3rd being built from parts.  

While size is the immediate concern for most car parts simple because cars have so many large parts, the sheer number of options available you can print is staggering,  Material choice would of course depend on your application and what kind of temperatures or elements the material comes in contact with.  For example ABS is a ideal easy to print material that can be smoothed with vapor then clear matte sprayed for a smooth non gloss finish with minimal work, If however you need something for example to put in an engine bay then ABS and Nylon may not be able to hold up to the temp swing.  There is also a Polycarbonate material that can be printed and requires a 300C print temp which is over 570F so it is able to withstand those temps much better.

The scanning option is also a good in theory, I have built a Laser scanner and a projector based scanner to replicate parts.  Both can work well when done right, the main issue is that cars are lot of shiny surfaces and the scanners want a matte surface to reduce reflections and increase accuracy.  There are a few options to to that temporary but its never as good as actual spray paint.

Overall I love the 3dprinting community as there is a large sense of self-reliability and a huge acceptance of ideas from any member no matter the history.  For wanting to get into a new hobby it can be done for under $400, although that printer is only big enough to print toys really, takes more money to get one big enough to be useful in automotive.

Interesting, I am only interested in the grills for a 69 Charger.  Center, headlight bezels headlight doors.  The center section seems the hardest to do so why not try for something simpler?  The headlight bezels are more simple, smallest of the parts.   Not a big demand but I bet a lot of folks would buy one if available??  How big would the printer need to be and would the final product be paint-able??? 

Yes, I have found out the print time counts, material counts, complexity counts...is a reproduction headlight bezel possible at a reasonable price???

[nihil]

If you watch Jay Leno Garage you will see what he has done with them. I am sure Jay has the highest end stuff that can be bought!

Cuda Ken

He probably has stuff that can't be bought by anyone else.

If I remember right, he's running a Dimension 1200 from Stratasys, then sends those parts out to be molded and cast. Same FDM process as mine and meryan00's printers, and probably only marginally better in quality, if even that. Cost, $30k or so.

[nihil]

Interesting, I am only interested in the grills for a 69 Charger.  Center, headlight bezels headlight doors.  The center section seems the hardest to do so why not try for something simpler?  The headlight bezels are more simple, smallest of the parts.   Not a big demand but I bet a lot of folks would buy one if available??  How big would the printer need to be and would the final product be paint-able??? 

Yes, I have found out the print time counts, material counts, complexity counts...is a reproduction headlight bezel possible at a reasonable price???

Depends on what you consider a reasonable price. Not sure what build area meryan00's machines have, but in my case I've got a build area that is a cylinder (delta configuration machine) of 300mm in diameter and about 330mm in height. If it can fit in that, it can be printed as a single piece.

Final product is entirely paint-able. With all the painted plastic on cars these days, finding someone who can properly prep it and choose the right paint should be easy.

[meryan00]

I figured I should put my input into here as well, overall I agree very much with what nihil has said.  I run a 3d printing and laser cutting side business.  I run 2 printers right now, both from Makerstoolworks, with a 3rd being built from parts.  

While size is the immediate concern for most car parts simple because cars have so many large parts, the sheer number of options available you can print is staggering,  Material choice would of course depend on your application and what kind of temperatures or elements the material comes in contact with.  For example ABS is a ideal easy to print material that can be smoothed with vapor then clear matte sprayed for a smooth non gloss finish with minimal work, If however you need something for example to put in an engine bay then ABS and Nylon may not be able to hold up to the temp swing.  There is also a Polycarbonate material that can be printed and requires a 300C print temp which is over 570F so it is able to withstand those temps much better.

The scanning option is also a good in theory, I have built a Laser scanner and a projector based scanner to replicate parts.  Both can work well when done right, the main issue is that cars are lot of shiny surfaces and the scanners want a matte surface to reduce reflections and increase accuracy.  There are a few options to to that temporary but its never as good as actual spray paint.

Overall I love the 3dprinting community as there is a large sense of self-reliability and a huge acceptance of ideas from any member no matter the history.  For wanting to get into a new hobby it can be done for under $400, although that printer is only big enough to print toys really, takes more money to get one big enough to be useful in automotive.

Interesting, I am only interested in the grills for a 69 Charger.  Center, headlight bezels headlight doors.  The center section seems the hardest to do so why not try for something simpler?  The headlight bezels are more simple, smallest of the parts.   Not a big demand but I bet a lot of folks would buy one if available??  How big would the printer need to be and would the final product be paint-able??? 

Yes, I have found out the print time counts, material counts, complexity counts...is a reproduction headlight bezel possible at a reasonable price???

I'm very familiar with the grill, and the headlight covers would be no to bad to do, but the center part is just to big to bdo in one piece.  Now for the main grill it could be designed to be printed in pieces and assembled strategically, so it is also possible.  The bezel finish might be the hardest to replicate, I would shave to look again to see.  

As for painting that works just fine on the plastic, or can be printed in a certain color. Honestly if I had one handy I could design it from measurements or scans, but just from the plastic cost I would assume that to be $200 not including finishing and painting so high, but not outrageous.  The one thing that is a benefit is if someone want to go custom instead of stock as with a printer you could change the slats to different direction, or perhaps embed a custom name or image. Basically lots of options then.

My big printer has a xyz print area of 225x325x220mm , so not really big enough to be used for to much in one part for the grill

[green69rt]

Interesting, I am only interested in the grills for a 69 Charger.  Center, headlight bezels headlight doors.  The center section seems the hardest to do so why not try for something simpler?  The headlight bezels are more simple, smallest of the parts.   Not a big demand but I bet a lot of folks would buy one if available??  How big would the printer need to be and would the final product be paint-able??? 

Yes, I have found out the print time counts, material counts, complexity counts...is a reproduction headlight bezel possible at a reasonable price???

Depends on what you consider a reasonable price. Not sure what build area meryan00's machines have, but in my case I've got a build area that is a cylinder (delta configuration machine) of 300mm in diameter and about 330mm in height. If it can fit in that, it can be printed as a single piece.

Final product is entirely paint-able. With all the painted plastic on cars these days, finding someone who can properly prep it and choose the right paint should be easy.

I don't know what the size is for a headlight bezel, but it seems to be the simplest to print.    A couple of hundred per side may be ok, really don't know.  My guess is 10 x 10 x 18 inches???