Torqueflite 727 vs TKO 600

[shone190]

Hi guys,

   I was wondering what is your opinion regarding these two transmissions?

How much more power 727 rob comparing to TKO 600?  Is it possible to feel it behind 440 (or bigger engine) in Charger?

Right now, I have 727 and have a plan to build up the 440 engine (to 512 stroker, about 550-600HP). As I see, it is very expensive to convert auto to manual (about $5000 for TKO600 kit), plus shipping cost to Europe where I live, plus customs fees...

So, is it worth to buy TKO600 or it is enough to stay on 727 (at first I mean on 0-60mph and 1/4 mile time)?

[b5blue]

For what it's worth to ya my car was a drag race only car for about 8 years. The guy I bought it from has his own transmission shop and he is the one who raced it. He installed and raced a 4 speed for one season after pretty much maxing out the 440 at that time. The stick could not out perform the 727 so he swapped back. 

[Troy]

Would you rather shift for yourself or not? To me, I'd rather shift - no matter how much power the automatic will hold. The manual transmission should have much less power loss than the auto. I *think* most people expect 20% drive line loss from the 727. I'm not sure what it is for a TKO 600. It will be hard to compare how it "feels" because the manual will feel faster in any case (unless you absolutely suck at shifting!).

If cost is a factor then remember that a 727 will need some pretty significant mods to hold that kind of power. Be sure to include that into the comparison of the TKO. However, the automatic with that much power will still be a LOT of fun and probably well less than half the cost.

If racing, the 727 should be more consistent. It's not about fastest time or MPH any more. Consistency wins!

Troy

[cudaken]

 I just looked at my dyno sheet and it showed the 727 lost 15% power from the back of the flywheel to the rear wheels. I can live with that if it is true.

My self, I am a 727 person. I have only broke one and had beaten on it pretty darn hard for 80,000 miles. Heck, when I was 17 I shifted into reverse at 80 MPH and the 727 did not go boom! Now that is a tuff transmission

Cuda Ken

[Cooter]

As long as you don't try to speed shift that TKO, you'll be fine.

Can't tell you how many times I've outrun somebody, only to hear "I missed third, let's go again"

As far as parasitic loss, it all depends on how much stall speed you have, and if the trans oou s stock, or rollerized, with light parts inside.

[XH29N0G]

As long as you don't try to speed shift that TKO, you'll be fine.

Can't tell you how many times I've outrun somebody, only to hear "I missed third, let's go again"

As far as parasitic loss, it all depends on how much stall speed you have, and if the trans oou s stock, or rollerized, with light parts inside.

Cooter has a point.  It is also funny that I was just contemplating this.  I recently started with a TKO and a stronger engine.  It certainly seems there is a learning curve with both.  I am still learning the 2-3 shift and don't race.  I could shift my old 4 speed stock 383 much faster.  I wouldn't go back though.  I am looking forward to learning.

[Cooter]

I read (fact?) Somewhere that Kiesler was experimenting with a new shift gate to allow faster 2nd to 3rd shifts.
however, I guess all that is  .  For nothin now.

[Challenger340]

A properly setup 727 Auto & Convertor is EXTREMELY tough to beat, with ANY stick(TKO included), simply because parasitic losses to "Horsepower"(the most mis-understood word on the planet BTW), that have nothing to do with Torque "Multiplication" providing best "average" applied power, over "time", to the Auto.

One need look no further than your local Dragstrip... where Autos outnumber Sticks 100 to 1 in B-Body Mopar BB's ?
there is a reason for that...
A properly setup Auto/Convertor deal.... is not only more consistent... but far cheaper to run with way less initial outlay, and a lot less parts breakage/maintenance over time.

For a street car with 550-600hp, IMO, no question a properly set up Auto/Convertor has the advantage to limited co-efficient of Friction on Road Asphalt over the stick... ANY stick !

[ws23rt]

As long as you don't try to speed shift that TKO, you'll be fine.

Can't tell you how many times I've outrun somebody, only to hear "I missed third, let's go again"

As far as parasitic loss, it all depends on how much stall speed you have, and if the trans oou s stock, or rollerized, with light parts inside.

I agree-- the term parasitic loss can mean a wide range of losses. If one is racing than this is an issue.

For those that want to play with their cars on the street the more important issue is your preference. To shift with clutch or not.

[flyinlow]

Manuals are fun sometimes and of course drive what you like. Keeping busy shifting gears and the car rocking around on its suspension makes  a manual car  feel fast.
Automatics are tough to beat at putting the power to the pavement.

20 %  power loss ( at wide open throttle) thru the drivetrain and accessory seams to be about the norm. That 90* power turn in the rear axle eats its share.
If you are going to spend weekends at the track and just occasional cruising my choice would be the 727.

If it is supposed to be a performance car, any transmission without an overdrive is leaving too much performance on the table.   

[c00nhunterjoe]

I still dont u derstand how you miss gears in a tremec..... driven plenty of t-5's and 3550's and the latter. I broke countless t5's... even ripped the shifter off the housing of one..... they are so short and smooth compared to an old 833..... it takes talent to make an 833 sound like an auto.

[Cooter]

Speed ( read: BONZAI) shifting a Tremec from 2nd to 3rd. You just might have got the one, ot two that was smooth.

As for the rest, countless folks have had trouble at high RPM speed shifting the Tremec.

[c00nhunterjoe]

Speed ( read: BONZAI) shifting a Tremec from 2nd to 3rd. You just might have got the one, ot two that was smooth.

As for the rest, countless folks have had trouble at high RPM speed shifting the Tremec.

I went through quite a few tremec's in my mustang. I usually scattered 3rd and or the cluster shaft on the 2-3 shift. Its one of the reasons i wont do the tko conversion on my big block. It couldnt hold up behind my 11 second mustang that is considerably lighter then my charger so why spend the money on a conversion?  i broke 2nd gear in one of them. Friends always said it was impressive to watch me scatter them.

[Mike DC]

If you want 10% more power from your engine there are probably much cheaper ways to get it than a manual conversion. 

Swapping to a manual is something people do because it's fun to drive, regardless of its effect on the track numbers either way. 

[shone190]

Thanks a lot guys for so much answers

My car won't be a race car, I just asked for 0-60 and 1/4 mile times because I wanted to know is there some difference there too. I know that none auto tranny can't replace feeling of a manual shift and every car feels stronger with manual tranny.

Does anybody know what is happening with http://www.keislerauto.com/? Their web page doesn't work for a few days. I asked for a price for complete kit on some other places, and here is what i got as answer

http://www.hurst-drivelines.com/  

The Hurst Driveline Conversions ELITE Tremec TKO kits include the following components:

Transmission. All new Tremec TKO-500 or TKO-600 transmission modified by Hurst Driveline Conversions specifically for your E-Body or B-Body Mopar. Includes custom engineered Hurst Sidewinder side-mount shifter for stock shifter location and appearance. No console modifications required! Hurst Sidewinder side mount sifter exclusively available from Hurst Driveline Conversions.
Crossmember. Custom crossmember. Direct bolt in - no modifications required.
Driveshaft. 3 1/2" steel driveshaft complete with premium Spicer u-joints and Spicer slip yoke, custom built for your car. All driveshafts are balanced using state-of-the-art equipment. Aluminum driveshafts also available for an additional charge.
Speedometer cable/adapter. Custom mechanical speedometer cable with integrated adapter and gear. Electric speedometer kits are also available.
Pilot bearing. Custom made needle roller pilot bearing.
Transmission mount. Energy Suspension polyurethane transmission mount for long life and durability.
Bellhousing. Custom engineered Husrt Driveline Conversions small block aluminum bellhousing designed for the Tremec TKO-to-Mopar engine block application. Big block scattershields also available.
Clutch kit. High Performance mid-shifter clutch kit - 550HP. Complete with disc, diaphragm pressure plate, clutch alignment tool and hardware.
Flywheel. Billet steel flywheel. Includes grade 8 flywheel bolt set.
Shift bezel. Mopar 5-speed shift bezel.
Shift stick. Reproduction pistol grip shifter handle.
Reverse light switch connector. Convenient pigtail connector.
Tunnel patch. Pre-formed tunnel patch. Includes cutting template.
Hardware Kit. Complete specialty hardware kit for a hassle free installation.
Installation instructions/information. Step-by-step, illustrated car model specific instruction manual to answer your most detailed questions and help you with your installation.
Customer support. Unlimited, lifetime technical support. Rated #1 in customer support and service.
Extended warranty. Free one year extended warranty from Hurst Driveline Conversions on all kit components. Some restrictions apply.
KIT PRICE: $4,820
Optional components:

Big block scattershield. SFI approved steel scattershield with block saver plate, clutch fork pivot bracket and all hardware. Add $275
Strip Comp clutch kit - 650 HP. Complete with dual friction disc, diaphragm pressure plate, clutch alignment tool, and hardware. Add $100
Hydraulic clutch kit. Complete hydraulic clutch kit includes adjustable hydraulic release bearing, compact style master cylinder with remote mount reservoir, master cylinder firewall mounting bracket, custom fluid lines and fittings, hardware, and comprehensive installation instructions. $675 w/ bracket and $535 w/o bracket
Call for for information and pricing on additional components.
Available Tremec TKO transmission models and gear ratios:

Model   Part Number   1st   2nd   3rd   4th   5th   Torque Rating
TKO-500   5201   3.27   1.98   1.34   1.00   .68   500 ft/lbs.
TKO-600 (Street)   5008   2.87   1.89   1.28   1.00   .64   600 ft/lbs.
TKO-600 (Road Race)   4617   2.87   1.89   1.28   1.00   .82   600 ft/lbs

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http://americanpowertrain.com/

I received this pdf file I put in attachment.

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http://ampperformance.com/

On web site there is nothing for Charger 1973, but on E-bay they have this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/370619179050?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

I asked them for complete kit price and got this answer:

You'd be looking at $4100.

Now I asked what is included in this price and waiting for the answer.

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Does anybody know where else I can look for this manual conversion kit and asked for a price?

Thanks a lot guys

[XS29L]

You might want to take a look at the new 5 speed that passion performance is selling. That would be my choice for a manual swap.

[Cooter]

Is passon offering B/E body kits now? Or are they still A body kits?

[XS29L]

From what I've seen it will fit were a 833 will I'd bet they have an install kit to go with the trans.

[1974dodgecharger]

I enjoy my manual its more forgiving than a 727 even though a 727 is faster (than I am) in shifting....

[Cooter]

Imo, real muscle cars had an "H" pattern.

[XH29N0G]

Imo, real muscle cars had an "H" pattern.

My 3 on the floor definitely did.   


Oh, you must mean an H pattern for forward gears 

[Cooter]

Some even had an "I" pattern.

[flyinlow]

Some of my most satisfying experiences have involved a fluid coupling.   

[dyslexic teddybear]

Some of my most satisfying experiences have involved a fluid coupling.   

[John_Kunkel]

Does anybody know what is happening with http://www.keislerauto.com/? Their web page doesn't work for a few days.

Keisler is no more...kaput.

http://www.hurst-drivelines.com/

IMO, this is the place to buy from. 

http://americanpowertrain.com/

Avoid like the plague; worst buying experience I've had in many years.