bleeding manual drum brakes, how far should pedal go down?

[WH23G3G]

Ok I got this 65 Valiant with manual drum brakes that I went through and replaced everything on. I did all Right Stuff Detailing OEM lines, new hoses, wheel cylinders, hardware, adjusters, shoes, drums, and 100% new master cylinder. I had trouble with the fitting to the master cylinder that kept dribbling fluid out and so I swapped it out for 100% new master cylinder not rebuilt. It did the same thing in the same spot. So I didn't know if it was ok but I wrapped some teflon tape around the fitting and installed it and it quit leaking. So then I pumped the brakes and bled each cylinder, between opening the valves I pumped the pedal a few times. I did it until I didn't see any bubbles come out and I don't see anymore seepage at the line fittings. I was just wondering how far should the pedal go down? I press the pedal down and it goes down about halfway and doesn't go any further. Should the pedal go halfway or should it not even barely move down at all when you press it in? Since there is no brake booster shouldn't it be the same firmness all the time?

[adauto]

Seems as far as my E body when I still had drums all the way round. I think you should be fine.

[A383Wing]

half way is too far...on manual brakes, it should go maybe 1" to 2" max....you either need adjustment or you still got some air inside the line somewhere

my 66 is very firm and solid maybe 1" down from top

[Mopar Nut]

half way is too far...on manual brakes, it should go maybe 1" to 2" max....you either need adjustment or you still got some air inside the line somewhere

my 66 is very firm and solid maybe 1" down from top

I agree, I have Motive power bleeder for mine, works great, you can use it to check for leaks.

[WH23G3G]

I checked very well for leaks and didn't find anymore. I checked front and rear brake shoe adjustment to make sure they are equal and tight. The rear drums can be wiggled on without a lot of trouble but not too easy and each adjuster is matched showing 1 thread out on the adjuster screw. The fronts might need more adjustment. The front drums go on very easy and I've got each adjuster screw set a 6 threads showing. It says in the 65 service manual to be sure all 4 adjusters are equal so it doesn't go sideways when you hit the brakes so I matched number of threads showing in correlation to how easy or difficult it is to get the drums on and off. I expanded the shoes until I could not get the drum on and then backed it off one at a time and checked to see if the drum would go on with each turn of the screw. I can't ever do the procedure where you're suppose to hear the shoes just touching, I can't ever gauge it right. 

[charge69]

Are you serious about counting the number of threads on the adjusters to start AND adjusting the brakes with the drums off the car? That's close to being the craziest thing I have heard about adjusting brakes! You just cannot get them right without the drums being installed and the shoes being allowed to settle in their desired and proper position. I might try to get the shoes close to tight when putting new shoes on a car but, I do not worry about the number of threads I can count that are showing on the adjusters.
I have had my manual drum brake Charger since the mid-seventies and have adjusted the brakes many times, including after everything new was installed during the restoration and always have done it the same way and it has always worked for me!
First, get the wheel off the ground and proper jackstands under the car. Get a brake spoon from the auto parts store or, if you have to, use a large flat-bladed screwdriver and adjust the brakes from the adjusting slot on the rear of the backing plate until the wheel is too tight to turn. Then, back off a little at a time until the wheel freely spins and you can barely hear the shoes rubbing against the drum. Repeat on the same tire a couple of times if you are a little OCD like me!
Do this on each corner (the Valiant probably does not have a suregrip so, no need to get both rear wheels off the ground) and the brake pedal should not have more than 1 to 1 1/2" of movement before becoming firm and unable to go any further down.
Expect to have to adjust them pretty soon after driving with new shoes but, after the initial wear-in, the need for adjusting them should be less frequent.
I am still dumbfounded by your trying to adjust the brakes without the drums and wheels/tires already installed!

[WH23G3G]

Apparently the mechanics at all different shops don't get how to adjust drums with the wheels on either. My daily driver work truck is a Ford Ranger and I can't tell you how many and how quickly I go through rear brake drums on it because no matter which shop I try they always tighten the rear shoes too tight. It go so bad with that I was having to buy new drums once a year finally I got tired of doing it and I still have the warped drums on my work truck. I tried five different shops five different sets of shoes and drums each time and I finally gave up. I even went as far as ordering the recommended Ford tool for measuring the brake drum inside diameter and then transferring to the brake shoes and then moving the adjusters out to the same diameter. That didn't work either because once you matched the drum would no longer go on. So I know how to do it the way your saying but I've never had a car with all drums I didn't know how out of control it would get it if one is adjusted out a few notches more.

[fy469rtse]

Put the wheels up in the air , adjust them until the start bind , then just back them off a bit, I think trial and error here will be the best way ,
You will know if one side especially on the front is tighter then the other side, take it for a drive and get on the brakes , flat road no camber to surface, don't let the wheel go just hold it to see if it pulls to one side, and readjust  needed
By the time your done you will be an expert at this

[charge69]

Just give what fy469rtse and I have given you a try! It sounds like "fy", and I know, I, have adjusted manual brakes many times and it becomes almost second-nature. Actually power drum brakes are done pretty much the same way.

Do not try anymore to adjust the brakes with the drum off the shoe. You just cannot get it right like that.

Then, come back and tell us how you finally got them adjusted properly using our suggested technique!

Carl

[Steve P.]

WOAH!!!!! Going back to the Teflon tape. In NO WAY would I use it on a brake system. If you are leaking without it there is good reason..

Your brakes are THE MOST IMPORTANT part of your car.. LIVES DEPEND on them..... Not only yours.

If you have a leak at the master you probably do not have a good flare on the end of the line. Check your book to see if your master is supposed to have an additional fitting between the master and the outlet line. It has been many years since I had the factory style "JELLY JAR" on any of my cars, but I believe there is supposed to be a brass fitting that goes either from one size to another or from a pipe type thread to a flare. ESPECIALLY with a jelly jar, (Single pot) master, this is of huge importance. Make sure you are using the proper fittings for a sealed system.

I have never seen any book say to adjust the adjusters to the same amount of threads. What ever book that is, throw it out!! In a perfect World you might get away with all adjusters at close to equal turns, but we are talking about cars from the 60's. All manufacturers have a spec with a certain amount of leeway or tolerance.  The adjusters are to both make up for that tolerance and allow your brakes to be adjusted with wear.

So what the others have said is pretty much it. I would only add that when I adjust each corner I like to have someone inside the car to depress the brake peddle slightly while I am turning the wheel and adjusting. All shoes and pads have to be seated. Finish seating is done after a burn in on the road, but doing it this way brings it all closer to complete.

Let us know...