512 Stroker Build based on Joflaig/Ron in the archives into a '73 charger w/ 400

[Rmetzger93]

Guys,
I have a 73 that came with a 400 in it, the block was cracked and I am getting my hands on a '69? 440 block (was told it was a '69, but I will have my eyes on it soon and post some info on it. Help on where the stamps and info will be? It's from an old guy that has forgotten more than I know.) My car and its vin are in storage, but I will post that ASAP as well. I just wanted to start my own bible on where I want to go with this car. The 440 is just the block, absolutely nothing else on it, so after the machine shop takes a look at it the build will be 100% ground up and at my discretion. I have time to acquire parts and with enough time I have a good enough budget.

I would like to have a max build on pump gas that is still street worthy, but posts a good 1/4 mile. I won't put any numbers on it, rather I will leave my request at "near max on pump gas" from what I know that entails around 500HP and multiple combinations of parts to get there.

My main questions being:

What info do you need out of me for informed posts (I will work to post whatever you need) Rear end, transmission, and the like?

What would you look for in the 440 specifically or would any 440 block do, assuming decent condition?

Step by boring step: Chronologically, how would you go about dealing with the machine shop, accumulation of parts, and all the stuff before I'm actually wrenching on the new block? For example: Should I get the block to a machine shop and have them clean it up and bore if necessary or accumulate some basic parts first etc. What would you do in my shoes for the first steps? (I hope that question is kind of clear)

Anybody do the 400 to 440 swap before? What do I need to replace, what stays the same, what pitfalls?

Overall, what is your dream build for my goals as stated above. A full parts list would be adored and then I will make a master list based on what parts are most agreed upon by you guys. Again, I have ZERO parts for this build, so whatever you guys recommend I will buy!

Anything else really helps.

This is my first go at a motor build up and working on a muscle car. I am decent at wrenching and all that, but I'm coming from a Cummins diesel background, assume the worst of my knowledge, it's a whole new world. I am researching and reading two MOPAR build books to get caught up, but again, assume the worst.

I know much of this has been covered in other threads (I have read as much as I could and I will continue to read up on other builds), but I wanted to start a thread that is a manual of sorts that I can refer to over the next year or so of a build that is for my car exactly. I hope that it isn't too much of a repeat for you guys and I hope this can be fun for you all too!

Thanks in advance, I really appreciate anything that will come in and I will have MANY questions!

Also, anything I'm mistaken on or ignorant about. PLEASE, call me out! This is a learning experience for me, and I'm very excited.

[Cooter]

Most all this has been covered here. Try a search first.

[Rmetzger93]

Like I said, I have done the search and learned a lot, but I know that new members join all the time, and I want their opinions too. And if I have specific questions I didn't want to A) post on an old and closed thread or B) have to start a new thread for each of my questions because then it would blow up the board and be hard for me to track. Also, each of those old threads were for different applications and different people. I have more than enough resources to piece this project together, this was just supposed to be another. But, if you and other veterans of the board prefer that I ask a bunch of questions that pertain to my build rather than consolidate it, I can do that too. But someone might get uppity about that too.

I understand the information is out there. In fact, probably everything you and I know is on the internet, that's the glory of it. I thought the purpose of this board was to get feedback and help on piecing together my specific build. So I'll restate to make it clear. The above questions stand, but the main point of my thread is as follows:

I have free reign on this build and given all of your experience as a collective group how would you do the build and what parts would you use given my very basic goal of having the most bang I can on pump gas. Essentially, if you were me, what would your parts list be?

I ask this because other than a bare block I have nothing on it (Rockers, heads, pistons. NOTHING), and can buy any recommended part. I know that some trial and error is unavoidable, but I want to avoid as much as possible.

Again, I understand a bunch of build plans are out there, but I don't want to ask them questions on a dead thread. Also, I was hoping you guys would argue this part vs that part and help me create a master list for my build. Also, I know - or think I know - the answer to a few of these questions, but nothing beats direct feedback from an experienced member. If there is no interest in what I'm hoping for out of this, then I apologize and will post specific questions instead.

Also, I'm a board veteran on the diesel sites. I know where you're coming from, but for every one of you that just wants me to hit a search function there are others that would love to go through a hypothetical build with me and help me piece my own build together. (At least on the sites I frequent) I mean no disrespect, I just hope that clears some stuff up and my goals for the thread.

[Cooter]

Well, expense will be a factor with only a block.
I'd hold out for a more complete 440.

That way, you have poss. The correct PS bracketry, A/C, kickdown linkages, etc.
however, if your dead bent on that block, I'd build a stroker. Even if it took me a little longer to purchase
you can try to source all the brackets, or try and fab the 400 ones to the taller 440.
if your 400 is an external balance motor (cast crank), you will need to swap it for one that is NOT weighted.
other than a few issues, it's a bolt in deal

[Rmetzger93]

Thanks, Cooter.
Do you think that sourcing the brackets would be a huge pain? Also, considering that time isn't an issue and my budget is only limited by time I like the idea of building the block from the ground up with whatever parts I get recommended to me. Does that seem like a decent way to go about it with this block or do you think I should wait for a more complete one, still? You said you would do a stroker. If you were to build it and keep it on pump gas, how would you go about it if the blank block were yours?
Thanks again

[ACUDANUT]

Well, expense will be a factor with only a block.
I'd hold out for a more complete 440.

X2

[Cooter]

Thanks, Cooter.
Do you think that sourcing the brackets would be a huge pain? Also, considering that time isn't an issue and my budget is only limited by time I like the idea of building the block from the ground up with whatever parts I get recommended to me. Does that seem like a decent way to go about it with this block or do you think I should wait for a more complete one, still? You said you would do a stroker. If you were to build it and keep it on pump gas, how would you go about it if the blank block were yours?
Thanks again

For what your gonna spend on stock internals, I'd opt for a good 10.0:1 street 496 C.I. motor.
if you look on eBay and here, you could source all the needed brackets that can't be used from the 400.

I'd also go with aluminum heads. Maybe Stealths, with a little reworking. From what you say, 500-575 hp would do.
cam would be based on what you really can put up with. Myself? Id be looking into the Voo Doo series, or Comp. Cams Extreme energy line of hydraulic flat tapped cams. Roller is bigger power, but bigger money too. Your choice.
Intake would be the Edelbrock Performer RPM. Carb would be an 850 Proform carb, with some tuning.

Headers would be 1 7/8"- 2" primaries with an "X" piped 3" exhaust and your muffler of choice.

[Rmetzger93]

Thanks so much, that gives me a bunch of parts to look at. I will post what my machine shop says and what they bore it over at. Then from there, I will work up a template of parts and check back with you.

[cudaken]

First, welcome to the site! 

First thing I suggest is set a goal! What is your idea of a good 1/4 mile ET? Second is do a lot of reading, Mopars can be tricky. Third, find a machine shop that knows Mopars! Like I said, Mopars can be tricky. Raced a guy that 74 440 Powered Cuda with my 383 70 Cuda. On paper (parts) his 440 should have walked on me, it was a tie!  He was so depressed when he saw my mainly stock 383. His engine was built by a Chevy shop! 

See if you can find a old Mopar Direct Connection Racing Manual, mine is from 1978. It is 700 pages of knowledge about back in the day. It covers suspension, rear gears, bracket racing, hood scoops, casting numbers, car weight and on and on. While a lot of the information is antiquated it is a good starting point! Much of the information is still applies to the questions you are asking.     

Good luck and keep posting!

Cuda Ken

[Rmetzger93]

Thanks for the welcome! I have been perusing the forums non-stop and a couple of my MOPAR books are in the mail as we speak! I have already learned a lot and defined my goals quite a bit better. This same thread really took off on Moparts, but I would love to get everyone's opinions from here too.

My goal:
I want a pump gas car that is still streetable and has the street comforts like enough vacuum for power brakes etc. Yet, will blow some rubber off at the push of the happy pedal. I want a car that runs in the high 11's/low 12's with growing room into the high 10's/low 11's without a crazy amount of changing (Heads, cam, and carb are what I expect to change). I know there are many ways to get these basic goals, but I've locked onto a build from the archives here. I will post about that below. From what I've seen, I like the idea of a 512 stroker for the ability to access torque at nearly all RPM's making for a fun drive around town, but it will still have the gumption to hit the track. If there are any other questions please, ask away!

[Rmetzger93]

Ok, guys after some more research I think I have found the build I'm going after. I found this in the archives of

Dodgecharger.com and I will post the link, but the final list ended up being:

Compression Ratio: 10 - 10.5:1

512ci Stroker Kit from 440 Source (4.25" stroke/7.100" rod), balanced crank, -17 CC dished pistons, 1.480" Compression Height (Considering 528/543 if someone convinces me that it won't change too much of the build and would still accomplish my street manners/pump gas goals.)
440 Source Billet Steel Main Caps
ARP studs
ATI Super Damper Harmonic Balancer (elastomer style)
Holley Street Dominator Intake Manifold (low rise single plane) - Part# HLY-300-14
Fel-Pro 1215 intake gasket, valley pan
ARP bolts
Machining: gasket match intake porting
Edelbrock Performer RPM Heads 84cc (Considering Indy EZ's here or porting the Eddy's, help?)
Comp Cams Pro Magnum Shaft Mount Roller Rocker Arms - Part# CCA-1321-16
Comp Cams 3/8 .080 Wall Pushrod set
Comp Cams "stock" springs
Comp Cams Pro Magnum Hydraulic Lifters - Part# CCA-867-16
Fel-Pro 1009 head gaskets
Fel-Pro valve cover gaskets
ARP head bolt, washer set
Machining: push rod hump, bowl blending, intake "cleanup"
ProForm 950hp Carburetor - Part# PRO-67202
Dual Feed Line
20-7 Bracket Adapter
Carb insulating Gasket (3/8in)
Summit Phenolic 1" Carburetor Spacer - Part# SUM-G1405
K&N X-Stream Air Flow Assembly, 1.25" drop base, 14 in. diameter, 3" filter height - Part#  66-3040
MOPAR Hemi Oil Pan - Part# DCC-4529884
3/8 pickup (Considering 1/2" pickup here)
Enlarged oil passage
Fel-Pro 1834 gasket
MOPAR 4.150 in. Stroker / 500ci Windage Tray - Part# DCC-5007345
Engle Hydraulic Cam (k62 intake lobe/ k64 exhaust) (Considering a solid cam, I'm not put off by the yearly adjustment like Joflaig, but I don't know what cam I would use)
294/298 advertised running duration
244/250 duration @ .050
.540/.557 valve lift
110* lsa
3 bolt flank
Dura-Bond PDP-17 Cam Bearing set
ARP Cam bolt kit

180 Thermostat
3 Bolt Double Roller Timing Chain
Billet Gears w/ Torrington Bearing
Edelbrock Victor Series Mechanical Water Pump – Part# EDL-8814
Carter Hemi Fuel Pump
Melling High Volume Oil Pump – Part# M63HV
MOPAR Oil Pump Driveshaft Part # DCC-3571071
MOPAR Oil Pump Pickup Part # DCC-5249817
MOPAR Hemi Oil Dipstick (modified)
Fel-Pro R.A.C.E. Gasket Set 2716
Indy Billet Rear Seal Retainer
Brass Block Plugs

Ignition:
MSD Pro Billet Distributor
MSD 6al Ignition (6000 RPM rev limiter) Part # MSD-6420
MSD Blaster Coil 2 Part # MSD-8202
Autolite 3924 Spark Plugs
Taylor Spark plug wires

Exhaust:
2" TTI ceramic coated, polished headers w/ thermal barrier
3" TTI X pipe front and rear exhaust
DynoMax Ultra Flo straight-though, offset-center mufflers - Part# WLK-17221 (2)

Transmission:
727 Torqueflite, 1966 casting
10" Street "S-800" Series Turbo Action Torque Converter (Tight) Part #17805ST
(2800 stall - 3400 stall range)
Heavy duty B&M Flex Plate (holes must be for 7/16 bolts with flat heads to work with convertor) Part #10230
A&A Ultimate Rear Sprag gear
A&A Rollerized Rear Governor Support w/ Bearings
Red lined clutches
Speedometer Gear (3.54 gears, rear tires = 27.5" diameter)
ARP hardware

Misc:
18* initial timing at idle, 18* swing, 36* total advance, the total in by 2800 rpm
Brad Penn 20w 50 motor oil (after break-in)
26" Be Cool Aluminum Radiator Kit w/duel 11" Spal Fans - Part # BCI-82270
[/list]

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,36197.175.html

I have put in bold the items I'm considering in its place. Also, here is the list of upgrades he made after catching the racing bug:

OLD Cam:
Engle Hydraulic Cam (k62 intake lobe/ k64 exhaust)
-244/250 duration @ .050
-.540/.557 valve lift
-110* lsa

NEW Cam:
COMP solid flat tappet, custom grind - Part# 23-000-5
-256/262 duration @ .050
-.567/.585 valve lift
-112* lsa
-nitrided

OLD Intake:
stock Holley Street Dominator (low rise single plane) - Part# HLY-300-14

NEW Intake:
Indy 440-2D, opened to Max Wedge size, plenum divider reduced

OLD Heads:
stock Edelbrock Performer RPM Heads 84cc
-Comp Cams Pro Magnum Shaft Mount Roller Rocker Arms - Part# CCA-1321-16
-Comp Cams 3/8 .080 Wall Pushrod set
-Comp Cams "stock" springs
-Comp Cams Pro Magnum Hydraulic Lifters - Part# CCA-867-16

NEW Heads:
Indy EZ heads (opened to Max Wedge - EZ-1)
-Harland Sharp rocker kit, 1.6 ratio
-Smith Bros. Pushrod set
-Comp dual springs (pressure about 160 on the seat and 400 open)
-Comp steel retainers
-Comp 10deg locks
-Viton seals
-ARP head bolts

PERFOMANCE SUMMARY:

The old setup peaked out at 543hp at 5200rpm vs 658hp at 5600rpm with the new, and 612 fpt at 4200rpm vs 667 fpt at 4400rpm. So I gained 115hp and 55fpt.

OLD setup at 3500rpm: 385hp / 578fpt
NEW setup at 3500rpm: 425hp / 637fpt

OLD setup at 6000rpm: 512hp / 448fpt
NEW setup at 6000rpm: 644hp / 564fpt

The dyno testing for the new and old were both done on the same machine and with 110 octane race gas each time. Dwyane Porter mentioned that the higher octane gas (vs 93) would likely have had only a very marginal effect on the numbers.

Total timing on the ignition during dyno testing was 35 degrees. I'm going to switch the RPM limiter chip to 6800. I will take the car back to the speed shop when the engine is back in order to get the tuning tweaked (hopefully sometime in the next couple of weeks). They said to expect 500hp at the rear wheels.

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,62316.25.html

Should I consider any of the upgrades that he did later on the first go around? For instance the EZ's over the Eddy's or the intake etc. without them throwing off the original build too much. I like the essence of the first build, and I think it fits what I want for street use and strip (He ran the first set up at 12.17 second at 112) but I think his second build got a little too far from the "streetiness" that I liked. Any comments are more than welcome! Thanks!

I am still waiting to get my block to the machine shop, but I thought I would do some research in my down time.

I hope that's enough meat and potatoes for you guys to chew over. Tear the build apart! From my limited experience, it seems like one that fits my purposes, but I'm asking you guys for a reason! THANKS!

[Cooter]

High tens and daily driven don't even belong in the same sentence.
it can be done, but a cam with 250 duration @.050 will need a vacuum reservior to keep power brakes IMO.

[Rmetzger93]

Sorry, I thought I made it clear that I meant for the car to have growing room to high 10's and the current build was high 11's low 12's. The more I'm looking into it, I'm finding that growing room isn't going to happen anyways. I would have to change everything to get high 10's and that's fine. I'm happy with the low 12's build plan. Do you have any comments on the build I was actually planning?

[Rmetzger93]

Update: Settled on and contacted a machine shop. Wayne Calvert's in Denton, TX. They're getting me a quote on sonic check, magnaflux, and overbore/hone/clean. Exciting stuff!

Guys, I'm still on the fence of the Edelbrock RPM's vs the Indy EZ's and whether or not to get either one ported when I buy them. Also, I'm still debating the cam. I don't have another in mind yet, but I don't think I would mind going solid if the right one presented itself. Any ideas on heads or cam? Or any other parts? Also, I'm considering 528/543 if someone convinces me that it won't change too much of the build and would still accomplish my street manners/pump gas goals.

[firefighter3931]

Welcome to the site 

I would go right to the EZ's and ICH dual plane and have Dwayne open up the heads to MW port and spec out a solid flat tappet for your combo. Having the same machinist prep your heads and spec out the cam has it's advantages. Dwayne has been at it for a long time and knows BB mopar very well ! 

There are better options for the ignition system too. 


Ron

[Challenger340]

Just to be clear, if you do all the upgrades at the start... you are looking at a $15K plus Engine when finished ?
and,
it will require  quite of bit of upgrades done to the car as well to be operational and street compatible ?

* Fuel System... you will have to supply it far beyond just adding an electric pump here ? Complete fuel line back to tank ? Pickup ?
* Cooling System... that is ALOT more heat, maybe even more than the 36" be cool and fans ?
* Exhaust System... that big an Engine needs 2"primary Headers on the EZ Heads AND a 3" Exhaust System ?

IMO,
If all you want is low 12's, High 11's ? That is easily attainable with a far more inexpensive std 440 inch build, leaving PLENTY of CASH for the rest of the compatible car upgrades /
NO,
it will NOT upgrade to 10's... but something that is ACTUALLY capable of 10's N/A... IMO, is just NOT really streetable anyways ? At least NOT on a regular basis.

[Rmetzger93]

Challenger340,
I knew I was getting really high into bucks, but this is going to be an over time build so I hope I can handle it. I like the idea of a stroker for the torque being there whenever I need it, and I have a bare block anyways and need crank, pistons, and all that. What build would you do in my shoes? I'm more than interested in saving some $$$! Thanks so much!

Ron,
Thanks for your comment! I was hoping you would see this since you were instrumental in John's build. What ignition system would you go with? And on the note of Challenger340, am I going astray? Do you know of a more efficient build for a stroker for my (and John's) goals? Although, I'm not as wary of extra maintenance as he is.
Thanks!

I contacted Dwayne to talk to him about heads and ran my recipe by him, we'll see if he answers! Thanks guys, I really want to nail down a parts list so I can start buying something, I need my baby up and running again. So all input is appreciated and needed!

[heyoldguy]

I would search no further than one of these two builds for your purposes.

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,106687.0.html

[Rmetzger93]

I would search no further than one of these two builds for your purposes.

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,106687.0.html

I had to kinda blow over the builds, I'm in class. But I saw the numbers and got the gist, nice builds! I was originally considering not going stroked, but my reading and interaction from a few guys was pretty clear in the, "You don't have a crank shaft or pistons, go stroked!" I was persuaded, what do I gain by not stroking it, then? I know I pocket a few dollars, but are they dollars I wish I dropped anyways? Thanks for the info. guys! I agree, I want an efficient build, but I also want to "do it right the first time" how do I balance that? Also, I know that you ask 10 car guys how to do it and you get 10 answers, but I am trying to soak it all up like a sponge. Every post helps!

[ACUDANUT]

"Just to be clear, if you do all the upgrades at the start... you are looking at a $15K plus Engine when finished ?
  You could buy a 426 Hemi for that price.

[Rmetzger93]

Well, that puts perspective on it! However, I'm not certain that's true as far as the final bill, but I haven't run the numbers either. Also, this is going to be pieced together over the course of a year or more. And, the learning experience of building my own beast is totally different than buying a crate motor. I'm not about to hop on Amazon and buy all this stuff guys. I'm just coming up with a shopping list and making sure I have a list of stuff I actually want, then piecing it together and learning along the way (I'm doing all the assembly, just not machining). Now, all that said, I still want an efficiently put together and high power motor. So, if I'm making mistakes on the shopping list, let me know specifically what to do better, but this is a garage experiment that isn't ending any time soon. If I were about to buy all the stuff right now, I would do the 426 and call it a day, but that's not what's happening and I don't have a pile of 15g's to drop. Now a grand here and there, that's different to my college student budget. I hope that makes sense. Don't get me wrong though, I am not tied down to this build! I just wanted to make it clear that this was going to take time. And is as much for the result as the journey. I really value the opinions being shared and am considering other routes! I just need to be persuaded one way or the other!

[heyoldguy]

I have built normally aspirated engines for myself of 300-900HP. Not one of them was ever perfect and I wanted to change them all when finished. Some I wanted less horsepower and others I wanted more (928 HP was not enough).

I built a man a pump gas 496 engine from which he wanted 600HP. It dyno'd 642HP. He danced around the dyno room pumping his fist in the air, stopped, looked at me and said, "Wadda we have to do to get seven hundred horsepower?"

Dad built a 600 HP 440 for a gentleman. He took it around a corner and slid it into a retaining wall. Brought the engine back to Pop and said, "Take some horspower out!"

Yours is going to be too much or too little, it will never be right. This is your first engine, pick something from all the builds that someone has already done, within your budget, and run it. Then make modifications to it until you get a feeling for what you want to build next. This is a never ending process. If you take too long you will become discouraged and sell the unfinished engine parts to someone else at a loss.

500 HP/TQ is a wild killer on the street. Make sure you have it pointed in the direction you wish to go when you pull the trigger.

[Rmetzger93]

You're right. I look at my cummins every day and think of what she needs. Still want to avoid rookie mistakes with the buying process, though!

[heyoldguy]

It's my opinion that you already are making the major rookie mistake, getting too many opinions from too many sources. Go to one good engine builder and pay him to design you an engine for your purpose. Or do what you are doing, put a frog and a pineapple in a blender and turn it on to make dinner.

I already got enough problems working with the guy that told me I was too expensive to build his engine and when he brought his BB Chevy to me to dyno he had the roller lifters twisted in the lifter bores and they were running caddywampus on the cam lobes. He had flipped the lifters over on the tie-bar and then installed cam followers. We found those before we fired it because we pulled the head to fix the cylinder that had 90% leakdown.

Yeah Bob, me too........me.........too!

[Rmetzger93]

Haha, good luck with that. Well, I'm trying to get ahold of a couple, but I want to be armed with an idea at least. Thanks for your opinion.