This world is going straight to hell...

[Tilar]

I hope Nacho is safe.

http://caracaschronicles.com/2014/02/20/the-game-changed/


EDIT: I saw he was just on. I wonder what the hell is happening?

[myk]

Why hasn't the world gone ga-ga over what's happening there? 

[twodko]

Same same in Kiev. The people just want to align with the west not the old eastern bloc way of life. Both governments are deathly afraid of losing their strangle hold over the citizenry. The fat cats want to keep their 1%.

The same oppression is building in the U.S. IMO

[bull]

This story emphasizes once again the need for protecting our 2nd Amendment rights. Some say the Founders' ideals were fine for the time but outmoded today, yet here it is 2014 and governments continue to rise and fall with the general population taking the brunt of the violence. I don't know about you all but I'm not giving an inch toward further gun control measures in any way, shape or form.

[twodko]

X2

[redmist]

x3

After watching video of protesters getting a successful mobility kill on an APC with nothing but gas and bottles...  Imagine if each of them was armed with an AR-15 as well.

The Government is afraid if it's citizenry.

[Mopar Nut]

This story emphasizes once again the need for protecting our 2nd Amendment rights. Some say the Founders' ideals were fine for the time but outmoded today, yet here it is 2014 and governments continue to rise and fall with the general population taking the brunt of the violence. I don't know about you all but I'm not giving an inch toward further gun control measures in any way, shape or form.

You need to move to Utah then, we are one of the last states protecting our 2nd Amendment rights.

[hawkeye]

"When governments fear the people, there is liberty, when the people fear the government, there is tyranny".  Thomas Jefferson

[Cooter]

From my cold, dead, fingers.......come and get me copper.....

[MoParJW]

I had no idea, the only thing I hear from the media is about Ukraine.

[myk]

This story emphasizes once again the need for protecting our 2nd Amendment rights. Some say the Founders' ideals were fine for the time but outmoded today, yet here it is 2014 and governments continue to rise and fall with the general population taking the brunt of the violence. I don't know about you all but I'm not giving an inch toward further gun control measures in any way, shape or form.

You need to move to Utah then, we are one of the last states protecting our 2nd Amendment rights.

I just might do that; I'm sick of looking at my neutered Colt AR-15 and matching Beretta 92F.  How's the snow over there? 

[skip68]

   x10.   stay safe Nacho.   

[Old Moparz]

You won't hear about it if you follow the major media corporations. (There's only about 6 anyway) Besides, relations between Venezuela & the US is in shambles. You want to see US media coverage or involvement? Wait until the chaos escalates & everything is even more unstable than it is now. The US will pay attention at that point because there is big profit for the media & the military contractors on the horizon.   

[Dino]

Nacho please tell us you're in Spain right now...

[myk]

Nacho please tell us you're in Spain right now...

I can't even fathom the idea of stepping out into the streets and facing the very real possibility of being beaten to death by your neighbors or the government that was supposed to protect and serve you; if there's a hell on earth it would be THAT situation...

[Tilar]

x3

After watching video of protesters getting a successful mobility kill on an APC with nothing but gas and bottles...  Imagine if each of them was armed with an AR-15 as well.

The Government is afraid if it's citizenry.

As it should be.

Same same in Kiev. The people just want to align with the west not the old eastern bloc way of life. Both governments are deathly afraid of losing their strangle hold over the citizenry. The fat cats want to keep their 1%.

The same oppression is building in the U.S. IMO

I agree. I really expected things to erupt a couple years ago. I just don't see another year going by without a serious uprising. All that would need to happen is organization and it would be on.

[Mike DC]

  
Would we worry about the US military's ability to handle a foreign nation, just because the citizens have widespread pistols & rifles?  Hell no.  So why would be radically different if the USA were the nation being "handled?"  It wouldn't.  Personal firearms won't do much.  Not against a reasonably well-funded modern military that is willing to inflict some collateral damage on noncombatants to get the job done.  Just ramp up the drone strikes on anything that even resembles trouble, send in the special op forces for specific jobs, keep the soldiers & tanks highly visible in the streets, and maintain it.


Now, other civilians?  Local & small time police/military activity?  
Yeah, that is a very legit reason to want personal firearms in a chaotic situation.  I'm as much in favor of gun rights as the next guy here.  

[Mopar Nut]

This story emphasizes once again the need for protecting our 2nd Amendment rights. Some say the Founders' ideals were fine for the time but outmoded today, yet here it is 2014 and governments continue to rise and fall with the general population taking the brunt of the violence. I don't know about you all but I'm not giving an inch toward further gun control measures in any way, shape or form.

You need to move to Utah then, we are one of the last states protecting our 2nd Amendment rights.

I just might do that; I'm sick of looking at my neutered Colt AR-15 and matching Beretta 92F.  How's the snow over there? 

It's almost gone here in Northern Utah.

[Old Moparz]

 
Would we worry about the US military's ability to handle a foreign nation, just because the citizens have widespread pistols & rifles?  Hell no.  So why would be radically different if the USA were the nation being "handled?"  It wouldn't.  Personal firearms won't do much.  Not against a reasonably well-funded modern military that is willing to inflict some collateral damage on noncombatants to get the job done.  Just ramp up the drone strikes on anything that even resembles trouble, send in the special op forces for specific jobs, keep the soldiers & tanks highly visible in the streets, and maintain it.


Now, other civilians?  Local & small time police/military activity?  
Yeah, that is a very legit reason to want personal firearms in a chaotic situation.  I'm as much in favor of gun rights as the next guy here.  

True, the 2nd Amendment won't mean much in regards to the current abilities of the US military. If anyone thinks otherwise, they may as well be living in a cave in Afghanistan.

[twodko]

All true Mike DC. There will be a large percentage of our armed forces, state and local LEO's that will refuse to take up arms against fellow Americans. It will still be a bloodbath that will decimate this country.
The hardcore military and political hawks will deploy what military resources that WILL kill the citizenry, use drones and turn lose the private security and/or corporate armies to kill us.

It won't be a race war either it will be a class war.

The idea of people moving to pro-freedom/2nd amendment friendly states will be seen as "containment" areas by the government especially in interior states. Corral us kill us. Seaboard areas would have to be taken and secured otherwise outside supply just won't happen.

[bull]

The 2nd Amendment was instrumental in preventing the Japanese from.launching an invasion on the  US mainland during WWII. Remember the "gun behind every blade of grass" quote? I don't believe the US military would walk over its populous as easily as some think. In addition to the mammoth number of weapons and ammo rounds in the hands of private citizens there's a huge number of ex-military who know exactly how it would go down. Also, how many short-timers will be willing to bomb the crap out of grandma's hometown?  Trying to maintain peace is one thing but all-out civil war is quite another. We are Americans and our military is not comprised of socialist yes-men (yet) so you can expect many orders to kill American citizens to be questioned or ignored. Even assuming that a tyrannjcal government could coax the military into killing US citizens the privat sector has got a huge advantage in numbers. And who supplies the military? The private sector does. The US military would face huge problems trying to defeat a domestic uprising and there would likely be few people left to govern if it could.

[Mike DC]

Yes, agreed.

[chargerboy69]

The 2nd Amendment was instrumental in preventing the Japanese from.launching an invasion on the  US mainland during WWII. Remember the "gun behind every blade of grass" quote? I don't believe the US military would walk over its populous as easily as some think. In addition to the mammoth number of weapons and ammo rounds in the hands of private citizens there's a huge number of ex-military who know exactly how it would go down. Also, how many short-timers will be willing to bomb the crap out of grandma's hometown?  Trying to maintain peace is one thing but all-out civil war is quite another. We are Americans and our military is not comprised of socialist yes-men (yet) so you can expect many orders to kill American citizens to be questioned or ignored. Even assuming that a tyrannjcal government could coax the military into killing US citizens the privat sector has got a huge advantage in numbers. And who supplies the military? The private sector does. The US military would face huge problems trying to defeat a domestic uprising and there would likely be few people left to govern if it could.

And Bull beat me to it.  Well said Curtis. . . beers and pizza sent to you. 

[Mopar Nut]

The 2nd Amendment was instrumental in preventing the Japanese from.launching an invasion on the  US mainland during WWII. Remember the "gun behind every blade of grass" quote? I don't believe the US military would walk over its populous as easily as some think. In addition to the mammoth number of weapons and ammo rounds in the hands of private citizens there's a huge number of ex-military who know exactly how it would go down. Also, how many short-timers will be willing to bomb the crap out of grandma's hometown?  Trying to maintain peace is one thing but all-out civil war is quite another. We are Americans and our military is not comprised of socialist yes-men (yet) so you can expect many orders to kill American citizens to be questioned or ignored. Even assuming that a tyrannjcal government could coax the military into killing US citizens the privat sector has got a huge advantage in numbers. And who supplies the military? The private sector does. The US military would face huge problems trying to defeat a domestic uprising and there would likely be few people left to govern if it could.

too.

And Bull beat me to it.  Well said Curtis. . . beers and pizza sent to you. 

[Mike DC]

                                         
Its true that invading the USA wouldn't work very well in the conventional sense, partly because we do have a lot of guns.   But that's not how modern warfare & occupations work.  Did the USA do a classic World-War-size invasion in any of the middle-eastern countries?  We do that kind of occupation much shorter on manpower and longer on weapons/vehicles/communications/cooperation with local govts/parties.  

20th century warfare is obsolete today.  Just like cavalry charges & smoothbore muskets were obsolete in the WWII.  It's not just that the weapons have changed, the entire set of priorities about when & where big countries go to war has changed.  



A large scale occupation of a place like the USA is not going to happen, not by some outsider nation.  Russia or China wouldn't do it to us for the same reasons we wouldn't do it to them - it's simply not an efficient way to control/steal resources from a large nation these days.  It's much easier to take over "legally" with economic efforts, as China is doing to us now.  

The only plausible scenario for serious domestic trouble today is major civil unrest at home being put down by our own forces, possibly with some outside help depending on the circumstances.  

[Tilar]

The only plausible scenario for serious domestic trouble today is major civil unrest at home being put down by our own forces, possibly with some outside help depending on the circumstances. 

You won't see that happen by our military or local police either one. The only ones that will even try are the generals that obama put in place this last year when he replaced the ones he knew might take his ass out of office, but even replacing those generals still leaves a lot of military personnel that will stand true to the oath they took.

[bull]

At some point troops would have to be put on the ground. It would be interesting to see some kind of study or report on how it might happen. Assuming our soldiers would agree to killing us would this hypothetical war be fought at a distance from other countries? Because with every fort being surrounded by civilians you'd think the military would be plagued by logistical problems and widespread guerrilla-style attacks. Seems to me it's been a long time since a country has been wildly successful in putting down a domestic uprising.

Sadly I think too many people in this country are too lazy, disconnected and in denial to concern themselves with protecting the ideals the Founders put in place. We have extremists on both ends of the spectrum who care about their agendas and the rest are caught in the middle feeling so helpless that their give-a-damn has broke. Meanwhile the governments work tirelessly to incrementally erode our freedoms under the guise of security. It seems like a no-win scenario.

[twodko]

All of our observations as to any scenario are moot because the government has Sats. There is little the population could do that would go unobserved. If you can see it, you can hit it. As to "outside" help I believe this would come from Cuba and Mexico.

In other news.....

I just brought home my new Mossberg SA 20 auto loader 20 gauge with a synthetic pistol grip stock. Getting tagged by 20 gauge steel shot or a slug is probably real unpleasant.

[myk]

I've met more than one policeman or military person who has stated that they would back the government regardless of how contraversial their orders would be.  I don't know if this is just local gun-shop macho-talk or what, and personally I don't see America's own troops turning on its civilians, however the idea that some men and women in this country would have no problem turning their weapons on another for the sake of the government is unnerving...

[ws23rt]

I've met more than one policeman or military person who has stated that they would back the government regardless of how contraversial their orders would be.  I don't know if this is just local gun-shop macho-talk or what, and personally I don't see America's own troops turning on its civilians, however the idea that some men and women in this country would have no problem turning their weapons on another for the sake of the government is unnerving...

The sad truth is people will turn on their own when told to. Even if it is just an experiment to test the notion.

I recall an experiment with students split into two groups---jailed and jailer--  This was an around the clock test and after a few days the experiment was called off due to over the top abuse of the jailed.  When one is given power the risk of abuse is tough to control and when all on the side of the power work together they tend to cover for each other to hide what they have done.

When power is given it must be independently monitored and checked as needed.  A persons vow or oath to do the right thing is not enough.

Remember the folks that engineered the production style of killing to maximize the productivity of it?  They were people given the power and the propaganda that allowed them to do their work and do it well.

BTW when someone takes an oath and is given power and they abuse that power and those that should check that power do nothing about it it makes sense that many will get angry enough to put their life on the line to fix the cancer.

[twodko]

Bottom line.......drink the coldest beer, enjoy the best BBQ, love your family and do others as you'd want them to do you.

[ws23rt]

Bottom line.......drink the coldest beer, enjoy the best BBQ, love your family and do others as you'd want them to do you.

 It is as simple as that.  Let's start voting for regular folks to do what us regular folks vote for them to do and if they misbehave spank them with a recall vote.

[bull]

Regardless of our odds at winning, if we hold.firm to our 2nd Amendent rights we'll be in a much better position than if we don't. I wouldn't necessarily fight knowing we would win but I would fight on principle hoping to win. I wouldn't just lay on my back and piss myself.

[twodko]

Ws, your heart is in the right place.......IMO. Recall means nothing as you know. "Spank them" must be a metaphor for disappearing them. I see little other choice. This speaks clearly to Bull's bottom line. Once committed it must be to win despite the futility of any such endeavor.

They are reading as we type. Please prepare my bail......if I'm given one.

[ws23rt]

Ws, your heart is in the right place.......IMO. Recall means nothing as you know. "Spank them" must be a metaphor for disappearing them. I see little other choice. This speaks clearly to Bull's bottom line. Once committed it must be to win despite the futility of any such endeavor.

They are reading as we type. Please prepare my bail......if I'm given one.

I agree that recall means--little-- but not nothing. It is the first step in expressing a point.  The spank them would be the result of a recall which is they are gone from power.  It is unfortunate that all of this is just symbolic but we the public have a tool box that is just a cresent wrench and a screw driver.  That we are individually weak does not mean inaction. Those in power bank on the weakness of the individual.  When we vote we are using the tools in our box. When we protest we are starting to use tools that make those given power nervous. When we start to die they get very nervous but still hang on.  It's a tough call when those in power abuse it. Our system is supposed to protect us from this.  It seems that it is not working like designed.

[twodko]

Proof of your words live in the hearts of the people of Kiev.

[Tilar]

I've met more than one policeman or military person who has stated that they would back the government regardless of how contraversial their orders would be.  I don't know if this is just local gun-shop macho-talk or what, and personally I don't see America's own troops turning on its civilians, however the idea that some men and women in this country would have no problem turning their weapons on another for the sake of the government is unnerving...

I believe that there will be some that will back government, but I'd put money on at best 25% might. That gives you roughly 250,000 that potentially would go against the citizens. There are probably 150 million Americans that would fight back. Odds are in Americas favor.

Besides, Even if it did come down to our military going against the citizens, Your goal would not be to beat the military; that would be futile and a waste of time because the people pushing their agenda are still there. The goal would be to get at and do away with those pushing this agenda.

[Mike DC]

  
Ultimately it's all more of a gun lover/survivalist fantasy than a real threat to happen.  The country has problems but this kind of civil unrest is not the shape things would take to manifest it.  Not in the foreseeable future.

[myk]

Regardless of our odds at winning, if we hold.firm to our 2nd Amendent rights we'll be in a much better position than if we don't. I wouldn't necessarily fight knowing we would win but I would fight on principle hoping to win. I wouldn't just lay on my back and piss myself.

Agreed.  Disarmament or any form of it to even the slightest degree is the biggest mistake any people can make.  Whenever people say that it wouldn't be so bad I ask them to think if disarmament was a great thing for the Jews of the 30's and 40's in Germany or anywhere else in the world.

I've met more than one policeman or military person who has stated that they would back the government regardless of how contraversial their orders would be.  I don't know if this is just local gun-shop macho-talk or what, and personally I don't see America's own troops turning on its civilians, however the idea that some men and women in this country would have no problem turning their weapons on another for the sake of the government is unnerving...

I believe that there will be some that will back government, but I'd put money on at best 25% might. That gives you roughly 250,000 that potentially would go against the citizens. There are probably 150 million Americans that would fight back. Odds are in Americas favor.

Besides, Even if it did come down to our military going against the citizens, Your goal would not be to beat the military; that would be futile and a waste of time because the people pushing their agenda are still there. The goal would be to get at and do away with those pushing this agenda.

I hope you're right.  Nevertheless, this topic brings up the equally unnerving conversations I've had with military and law-enforcement personnel who staunchly believe that citizens should not be able to bear arms of any sort.  Gives me the freaking shivers....

[bull]

 
Ultimately it's all more of a gun lover/survivalist fantasy than a real threat to happen.  The country has problems but this kind of civil unrest is not the shape things would take to manifest it.  Not in the foreseeable future.

Maybe. It may also be.that too many people are in denial or too proud to believe what's happening in Vevezuela and the Ukraine can happen here. It won't happen here? When it comes to liberty I think it best to err on the side of caution.

[Tilar]

   
Ultimately it's all more of a gun lover/survivalist fantasy than a real threat to happen.

Mike, I pray to God that you are right, but the realist in me says you're wrong.

[polywideblock]

the  Ukraine is free, opposition leader released from prison,  president has fled .but it not over yet

[Mike DC]

 
I'm not saying it's utterly impossible to happen in the USA.  I'm just saying it is not currently much of a threat.  Conditions are simply way too good right now and the inertia of world events probably wouldn't collapse them here in too rapid of a timeframe.  

People worry about the US dollar collapsing, being invaded by China, attacked by terrorists, etc. 
The people who actually could collapse our dollar are too far into bed with it to want that to happen in any rapid uncontrolled fashion.  Nobody is gonna invade us because nobody powerful enough to do would really be better off for trying.  Terrorists can be lethal but they are better at causing brief panics than genuinely threatening civilization.  

[Tilar]

 
I'm not saying it's utterly impossible to happen in the USA.  I'm just saying it is not currently much of a threat.  Conditions are simply way too good right now and the inertia of world events probably wouldn't collapse them here in too rapid of a timeframe. 

People worry about the US dollar collapsing, being invaded by China, attacked by terrorists, etc. 
The people who actually could collapse our dollar are too far into bed with it to want that to happen in any rapid uncontrolled fashion.  Nobody is gonna invade us because nobody powerful enough to do would really be better off for trying.  Terrorists can be lethal but they are better at causing brief panics than genuinely threatening civilization. 

  I hate to say it because of the potential to shut a good thread down, but you're messiah isn't on your side.

[twodko]

 
I'm not saying it's utterly impossible to happen in the USA.  I'm just saying it is not currently much of a threat.  Conditions are simply way too good right now and the inertia of world events probably wouldn't collapse them here in too rapid of a timeframe.  

People worry about the US dollar collapsing, being invaded by China, attacked by terrorists, etc. 
The people who actually could collapse our dollar are too far into bed with it to want that to happen in any rapid uncontrolled fashion.  Nobody is gonna invade us because nobody powerful enough to do would really be better off for trying.  Terrorists can be lethal but they are better at causing brief panics than genuinely threatening civilization.  

Precisely so. The global monetary system is just that....Global. If one country's financal system/stock market goes down, every country's stock market/financial system takes a similar hit. Our country is in dire financial straits because stupid people forgot what a costly mistake Vietnam was and used 911 to do it all over again......IN TWO COUNTRIES!

[Mike DC]

I hate to say it because of the potential to shut a good thread down, but you're messiah isn't on your side.

My Messiah?  

You mean that clown in the white house?  He's another useless career politician doing what they do best.  


I only ever defend BO because he scares me less than his predecessor and IMO he's constantly getting bashed for the wrong reasons.  I dislike biased viewpoints dominating the public discourse.  Far-biased viewpoints are fun but they aren't wise.  It leads to even worse decision making in the future.  

[moparsr2fast]

  Is it possible that there is an overall agenda to elminate the sovereignty  of this country in the long term, in order to evevtually set up a one world government?

[polywideblock]

Google   UN  Agenda 21   

[Tilar]

I hate to say it because of the potential to shut a good thread down, but you're messiah isn't on your side.

My Messiah? 

You mean that clown in the white house?  He's another useless career politician doing what they do best. 

I guess I took some of your posts as support for his actions, which is what brought on the above statement. Sorry for assuming.

 Is it possible that there is an overall agenda to elminate the sovereignty  of this country in the long term, in order to evevtually set up a one world government?

Not only is it possible, they are trying right now to make it happen without the masses going full tilt bozo all over them.

[twodko]

"I only ever defend BO because he scares me less than his predecessor and IMO he's constantly getting bashed for the wrong reasons.  I dislike biased viewpoints dominating the public discourse.  Far-biased viewpoints are fun but they aren't wise.  It leads to even worse decision making in the future."

Very well said Mike. My thoughts as well.

[twodko]

"Quote from: moparsr2fast on Today at 03:34:06 PM

Is it possible that there is an overall agenda to elminate the sovereignty  of this country in the long term, in order to evevtually set up a one world government?"

Of course that's the goal. I submit for your consideration:

The world bank

The Euro

I think all of us are debating this as thoughtful adults. As long as we continue respectful discourse I would be surprised if the mods lock the thread. 

[BigBlackDodge]

I've met more than one policeman or military person who has stated that they would back the government regardless of how contraversial their orders would be.  I don't know if this is just local gun-shop macho-talk or what, and personally I don't see America's own troops turning on its civilians, however the idea that some men and women in this country would have no problem turning their weapons on another for the sake of the government is unnerving...

Jeffrey Miller would say otherwise............


Who is Jeffrey Miller?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Miller




BBD

[ws23rt]

With communication and commerce connecting the world like never before the one place we live in has grown smaller.  To think that a few get together and conspire to make this happen is the nature of conspiracy thinking.  Getting more than a few people to agree on anything is a reach.

The world seems to be more like a group of states that maneuver to share their needs with those that have something to share.

Look at our gov.---they flounder trying to do stuff for the states and just muck things up and cause descent. The gov want's to be our mom and dad but forget that we are adults and the stupid things they tell us to do is much like telling us to brush our teeth.

Hey Gov guard our people from invaders and stop the criminals within.  You are not the brain that makes all happen you are the immune system that keeps us well and safe.

[twodko]

Maybe us MOPAR people should run things. 

[polywideblock]

does that mean we get our own lane   

[twodko]

Oh hell yes!

[moparsr2fast]

does that mean we get our own lane   

  You do realize that if you have an adequately powered Mopar, both lanes are often used... at the same time 

[bull]

Bottom line.......drink the coldest beer, enjoy the best BBQ, love your family and do others as you'd want them to do you.

In other words, eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die.

[redmist]

And if you don't have full auto, and RPG's and Tanks the day before the "Revolution"   You will have them the day after, that's a fact.

Lots of good old boys with keys to National Guard property that know how to use that equipment. The tanks in Boise Idaho won't be pointed in the direction of the civilians from all the people I know who drive them. 

For every person currently in the Military, you have three, four?? times as many Military trained people in the civilian sector that can still utilize that training.

[Tilar]

You're not the first one I've heard say that. People don't revoke the oath to protect the constitution when you retire from the service.

[bull]

You're not the first one I've heard say that. People don't revoke the oath to protect the constitution when you retire from the service.

Especially when those.in.power are not adhering to the Constitution.

[Mopar Nut]

Especially when those.in.power are not adhering to the Constitution.

Amen!

[twodko]

Roger that..........even 40+ years later.

I might not be as good as I once was but I'm still good once as I ever was.

[ws23rt]

Their is something about human nature that makes it tough to move ahead in our collective thinking. That is the stubborn resistance to alternate thinking.  It may be just a blind thought process that comes from thinking one has found an answer.

When we are young we know nothing. As we learn things and find out some of them are wrong we feel bad. As we get better at dealing with this (how to not feel bad) we tend to cover the fact that we were wrong and it's enough that no one else knows. But inside we know we were wrong.

When one steps into a position of power and influence and makes a big decision that turns out to be a blunder it's understandable that to admit to it would be humiliating. So what is the thought process in a case like this?  Do the right thing? Or gamble that it will go away?

Where I'm going with this is when some get a chance as a leader and it becomes clear that their ideas and moves don't match with their obligation what do they tend to do?  They cover up--they blame others--and they hang on hoping it will go away.  The position given to them intoxicates and blinds them.

The road these folks follow doesn't lead to a flattering place in history.