Charger Build Questions/Updates

[ajay716]

hey guys its been awhile since i posted here, just wanted to post some pics and some progress of my charger.
just to recap its a 73 dodge charger se with the 400 2 barrel with an auto tranny. 40somethin thousand miles, runs and drives pretty good, tranny shifts smooth, power steering went out during storage.


ive spent about 3500 dollars so far on various parts and all of these listed i have some are installed and some are about to be(please scroll to the end to see my questions and purpose of the thread), including:
Oil filter wix
Pcv Valve
Spark Plugs - Ngk XR5
Fuel Filter  wix
Performance Distributor Cap and Rotor
Denso Spark Plug Wires(getting firecore)
Transmission Fluid and Filter Change -Dextron w/ Wix #FT1039 $30 (Rock Auto) Ö
Slotted and Drilled Rotors and new outer bearings and brake partsÖ  done
Hawk pads
Vapor Canister Filter Element wix
Crankcase Breather Element wix
Valve Covers Chrome and gaskets
Timing Covers Chrome and gaskets
Drum Brake Shoes and Hardware Kit
Lower Control Arm Bushings MOOG
Front End Ball Joints MOOG
Front End Tie Rods MOOG
KYB Shocks in rear Monroe in front for comfort
Edlebrock 7186 Performer Intake
EDELBROCK 800 THUNDER AVS
Hedman 78038 Elite Headers
New Tires/Wheels- MB old school wheels 18x8 w hankook ventus 245 45 18 + 275 40 18
Carb Rebuild Kit Holley 2210
Factory Service Manual
Battery
K&N air filter
New battery grounds/connections
MSD Ignition Coil
Summit X-Pipe Stainless Exhaust System


So just a couple of questions, first, is this all of the "cheap" ways i can get more power/compression up?(or quickness) if not, can you guys tell me what i need? i dont want to spend more than 600 more on this for now, but if something that i can get and use during the install of the intake manifold and timing chain or something that doesnt require taking the whole engine apart, please let me know(cam/gears?). Next, with since my stock setup is for a 2 barrel and im switching to a 4 barrel 800 will the stock engine work with that or will i have to change something like the camshaft or something internally?Third, will the vapor storage canister hook up to the new carb? and if not, can i just toss the whole system and not look back or wil i need to plug the holes? Fourth, when i put the new wheels on, i noticed both sides have a little play, like if you grab the top and bottom and push forward? the wheel moves outward toward the top a little? is that normal? Fifth, the window defroster front and back wont work, whatre the best places to check first? and thats all the questions i have for now, the main concern if the 800 avs will be too much, i dont think so being its very adjustable for a eddy the engines a  400 and i have the intake manifold, hiflow airfilter, headers and xpipe.. along with the timing adjustment and xr-5 plugs instead of xr-4. And the main other thing is if i got pretty much everything little that will up the power and general quickness or if anything wont work with my combo(except heads and a stroker kit im saving for the 440source heads and the 470 stroker kit... are those good are there any known problems?)  thanks for taking the time to read, ill be posting just a few pics of what the car looks like and a few things ive done so far as soon as i get the pics resized....also if i have a 12 bolt cover what rear end do i have? ill post a pic of that too, thanks again!!!


ajay

[Cooter]

Before messin with too much on the engine, if you wanna spend a little and get instant gratification, I'd be looking at a rearend upgrade for when you do the bigger engine. Something like an 8 3/4" rear out of say a 1971-73. With like a set of 3.55-4.10 gears.

Of course swap the intake and carb, but I think you'll find that car has some 'airplane' gears under it.
like maybe 2.76:1. That rear sounds like the weaker unit. Maybe the 9 1/4"?

[ajay716]

But what good would that do me as far as power or quickness except gears? I won't need that until I stroke the motor, I appreciate your advise but don't I have a point? lol I'm looking to spend like 600 and get a cam for my low comp. motor and can I just buy new gears? And what do you think about the other questions? Anyone else? Thanks cooter

[Dino]

I 'think'  the cam is different on 2bbl engines.  If you're thinking of a stroker then don't spend money on anything else now, the car will run just fine as is.  The 880 is big but you can play with jets if it is a problem, probably not though.

Are we talking defrosters or defoggers.  Find a wiring diagram for your car and follow the wires, see where power needs to come from and get the multimeter out.  Always start with the most obvious and play the elimination game.

The vapor canister runs between your lines so it works with any carb.  You can omit it but unless it's giving you grief I wouldn't.  I actually added one on my car.

No you should not be able to move the wheel like that by hand so you have some slop.  Replace your wheel bearings (likely culprit) which is not a luxury anyway. Also grab a small crowbar, get under the car and gently move each part of the suspension.  You should only see slight movement on the bushings, if one moves a bit too easy and you can see play on the bushings then replace ALL of them, not just the one.

Welcome to the MB old school club.  I think you are member #3.  

Edit:  the 12 bolt is indeed the 9-1/4 unit.  I would probably swap that with an 8-3/4 before anything else.  You'll need it eventually.

[Ghoste]

How soon are you hoping to do the stroker?

[ajay716]

so do you think i will need to replace the cam or anything else or am i good now with the other stuff i have? if the cam is cheap and will make it run better and give me more power for around 300 i will do that...and about gears can i readily buy a set of gears and put them in the rear end or is it more involved than that? i dont really have the money for a new rear end right now, let alone the time to find one cheap thats good    i will do it eventually though. the stroker kit and heads arent coming till next summer or the next, whenever i have the extra funds. ill keeep the vapor canister check the wires and check the suspension. i have a bunch of parts that i havent put on yet as far as that goes. but is there anything else that i am missing as far as getting more power for under 600? thats why im thinking cam and gears but honestly im not sure how involved those are. thanks

[RallyeMike]

i dont want to spend more than 600 more 

$597.97.

3 cents left over  


http://www.summitracing.com/parts/zex-82040b/overview/

[Dino]

i dont want to spend more than 600 more 

$597.97.

3 cents left over  


http://www.summitracing.com/parts/zex-82040b/overview/

   

[firefighter3931]

Before messin with too much on the engine, if you wanna spend a little and get instant gratification, I'd be looking at a rearend upgrade for when you do the bigger engine. Something like an 8 3/4" rear out of say a 1971-73. With like a set of 3.55-4.10 gears.

Of course swap the intake and carb, but I think you'll find that car has some 'airplane' gears under it.
like maybe 2.76:1. That rear sounds like the weaker unit. Maybe the 9 1/4"?

Gears are going to make a huge improvement....going from a 2.76 to a 3.55 will make it feel like you picked up 100hp ! 


Ron

[Hard Charger]

But what good would that do me as far as power or quickness except gears? I won't need that until I stroke the motor, I appreciate your advise but don't I have a point? lol I'm looking to spend like 600 and get a cam for my low comp. motor and can I just buy new gears? And what do you think about the other questions? Anyone else? Thanks cooter

the right gearing is everything.

European sports cars and newer cars scream with the right gears, not the high HP's.

[BSB67]

But what good would that do me as far as power or quickness except gears? I won't need that until I stroke the motor, I appreciate your advise but don't I have a point? lol I'm looking to spend like 600 and get a cam for my low comp. motor and can I just buy new gears? And what do you think about the other questions? Anyone else? Thanks cooter

Gears do not add any hp to the car.  The car becomes slightly quicker from 0 to about 30 mph at WOT.  The car will feel a little more snappy, because it will be as if you are in a lower transmission gear.  This is because at any given car speed, the engine will be spinning at a higher rpm, which equates to more power available when you squeeze the gas pedal. As an example if you drive along at 40 mph in second gear, and you snap the throttle, the car will respond more sharply than if you did the same thing in 3rd gear.  That is how the feel of the car changes with a gear change, depending on how large of a gear change is made.

But let's be clear what it will not do.  From any speed above 30 mph the car will be no faster at WOT.  So if your buddy's car is faster when you race from a 30 roll, his car will still be faster from a 30 roll after you make a rear axle gear change.  This is why a gear change will normally make no change in a car's trap speed at the drag strip, only an et change because of the quicker 0 to 30 mph time.

[Challenger340]

Camshaft is different on the 2 bbl Engines, and has insufficient lift or duration, to utilize the extra airflow the 4 bbl offers, to any great advantage.

Just switching to the 4 bbl itself, without changing out the factory 2 bbl Camshaft, IMO, will be a dis-appointment.

Even a CompCams 268H Cam, will make a very noticeable difference in power with the 4 bbl.

[ajay716]

thanks for the replies guys i know that gears wouldnt actually give me hp lol, i was under the car the other day and i dont know what i was thinking...the car has a ten bolt rear end with no fill cap on it...so im thinking its a 8 3/4. i also found out that i dont have a lsd. so im going to get the  3.73's and a lsd, what is the new replacement lsd for suregrip or is there a cheaper one of similiar quality? and as far as the camshaft, are you saying i wont see any improvement with the 4 barrel because of it or id just see full results if i switched cams? and how what is involved with changing the cam?

[Cooter]

LSD ......trippy.

[BSB67]

...are you saying i wont see any improvement with the 4 barrel because of it or id just see full results if i switched cams? and how what is involved with changing the cam?

Going form a 2 bbl and single exhaust to a 4bb/dual exhaust was a common thing to do back in the day.  You will see an improvement, but will still be short of the performance of the factory original 4bbl performance (headers and other enhancements aside).  

A friend of mine had a 390 Ford Fairlane w/ 2bbl and single exhaust, I had a '68 Charger w/ 383 2bbl/single exhaust.  The cars ran just about dead even in the high 15s at the track.  We both switched over to factory 4 bbl/dual exhaust.  Cars were still about dead even, and ran 15.20-30s at 90 mph.

So you can look at it in one of two ways,  1) The performance increase will be very noticeable, or, 2) the car will still be slower than a mini van.

IMO, what you are planning to do is the natural progression in learning to work on your car while making it a little better/faster.  Install what you have now and have fun.  You can always install a cam later.

[ajay716]

BUMP. would more people reply please? also, what case rear end do you think i have so i can get new gears? 489 or  741 case?  and also is the cam plug and play basically? or is it fairly easy to do when im doing the timing chain? or do i have to take apart the engine past the heads?like i said its a 73 400 auto  the rear end is 10 bolt with no fill cap, thanks

[Kern Dog]

Hello Ajay,
If the car has its original rear axle, it is likely to be a 8 1/4" or a 9 1/4". Neither of these has an easily removeable gearset. The only one that does is the 8 3/4". The gears are mounted in a removeable assembly that has several nicknames: Chuck, chunk, pig, pumpkin, 3rd member, etc. It is the most popular Mopar axle design due to its strength and ease of gear ratio changes. Picture this: You have a deep set of 4.10 gears for drag racing but have a road trip planned. In about an hour with basic tools, you can swap the 4.10 member out for a seperate chunk with different gears in it. I personally have 8-10 sets here with different ratios. The 71 Charger is a similar style to yours and it was available with this axle. Who knows, you may actually have one already. Ma Mopar did screw together some strange combinations after all...
Regarding your financial limitations as well as your inexperience, internal engine work will yield the best results but also require the most expertise. This is why some guys here suggested the gear swap. It is the easiest way to "leverage" your existing engine power into getting more performance. Someone wrote that "after 30 mph, the effects of gearing doesn't mean much" (Or something similar to that.) I don't agree in the slightest. Run your car at 40 in 2nd and try to speed up. NEXT, upshift to 3rd and try again. Notice how the car feels stronger in 2nd? THAT is the effect of the gearing & mechanical leverage.
The '73 400 2 barrel is a low compression engine but can still perform better with better flowing exhaust. Adding a dual 2 1/2" system with good mufflers will add about 20 to 25 HP. A cam swap isn't something that is an easy task for the guy that hasn't done it before. Not trying to discourage you, its just that in this case, a few wrong moves and you've spent $300 or more and have to start over. The intake and carb swap will help a little. An Edelbrock Performer will allow the use of a ThermoQuad carb. This is a decent combo for a fairly stock engine. Otherwise, a Holley or Edelbrock 600 or 650 would be fine. Do NOT use a mechanical secondary carburetor. These are fine for lighter cars with more power.
Feel free to respond with other questions.

[Kern Dog]

Also, the easiest way to determine the type of axle you have is to look at the center section from behind. If it has a removeable cover, it is NOT the desireable 8 3/4" unit. Not to worry. If the axle isn't giving you any trouble now, you may be able to keep it while you make other changes. If it is the smallest one that was available, that would be the 8 1/4". While not anyones favorite, it will hold up for awhile in stock form.

[ajay716]

thanks for the quick replies, heres a pic of the rear. i think its an 8 3/4 but let me know

[ajay716]

also, im not trying to be rude here but can you guys who are reading actually reply? this thing has been read over 300 times and not even ten people have replied? and can you guys actually answer my questions? thanks to those who have already. i will be getting 3.73 gears, a sure grip of some sort, heads and a stroker in the future, so please dont suggest those unless it is a certain type for my combo. what im looking for is something that i missed that would be beneficial to my build and something i would notice as far as power and quickness go, not something thats already been mentioned or that i have on the list. i also want to know what is involved with changing the cam. i have people who can help me but i need an answer on to how hard it is...i thought it basically just slid in around where the timing chain is. If its something that i can do while doing that, i wouldnt mind taking a stab at it. let me know how the procedure goes somewhat and what else i can get to make the charger faster, thanks again guys.

[XH29N0G]

I believe Red R/T493 is correct with the point that if you mess up the cam install, you stand to mess up a lot.  At the same time, when faced with the same issue I thought I needed to start somewhere.  I don't have a sense of your level of mechanical experience, but if you haven't done this, you will need to start somewhere and the experience might help when you rebuild as a stroker.

For me, it would have been better to have someone there who had done it before the first time I did a swap.  Nevertheless, I was happy I decided to do it, learned a lot, and know that I would do a much better job if I had to do it again.  (My issues: I nicked at least one of the bearings removing the old cam because I did not expect it to be as unwieldy as it was.  I also had the timing 180 out when I completed it and did not set it fast enough on initial start and break in.  Others here will be able to tell me what could have gone wrong.  I did not notice problems with the install though.)

With the timing cover and intake off,  to swap the timing chain, you will practically be at the stage of the cam.  You will need lifters, and will want to inspect the valvetrain.  You will want to do your research and I would look for someone who can help if I were doing it.

The rear does not look like an 8 3/4 (no bolts on the back of the 8 3/4) look at http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/wiki/Mopar_rear_axle_spotter's_guide

[ajay716]

thanks, i didnt think he meant it had no bolts on the cover...but i see that now..what do you guys think it is a 8 1/4? i need to know to get the new gears and lsd. im disappointed its not the 8 3/4 but ive heard the 8 1/4 arent too bad i guess. so you think i have everything down as far as getting the most power before digging into compression?

[c00nhunterjoe]

I love the 400. They are such an underdog from the factory. You can do alot with the stock bottom end and still go fast. If you dont do alot of highway driving then i say put 4.10's in it. 275/60/15's on the rear. Put a racer brown cam in it. (Im a huge fan and supporter) a set of 1 3/4 headers and dual 2.5's and you will have a really fun car.

[XH29N0G]

From my perspective, it looks like a start and is not much different from the way I would approach the issue, but the other people who have already replied have much more experience than I do.  I am not the one to pay attention to about this list. I piped in because I thought it would be valuable to reiterate what Red R/T 493 wrote from the perspective of someone who dove in to try it and had an imperfect install.  I enjoy learning, but basically have worked from bolt ons (carb, intake, heads, cam, transmission, etc....)  The other folks who have replied know these engines inside and out and can/will provide more detailed information when they see it being necessary.  If you want detailed information about something in particular other than what has been written, ask it in a very specific way, and hopefully a response will come.

[Cooter]

also, im not trying to be rude here but can you guys who are reading actually reply? this thing has been read over 300 times and not even ten people have replied? and can you guys actually answer my questions?

I was wondering if you'd catch that. Can't speak for everybody, only myself. You sound kinda young by the "LSD" comment that many younger people refer to a sure grip rear as. I felt that you are not willing to listen to sound advice, so like many, I offered good advice, you seem to be hell bent on going Into that boat anchor (as far as money and bolt ons go) 400. You mentioned a budget, yet when offered the cheapest bang for the buck, it seemed as though that wasn't what you wanted to hear. so I stopped attempting after that.

One more time. If you only have $600.00 to spend, you WILL NOT get very much by way of hp out of that 400 in stock form by buying bolt ons.
no sense in buying a brand new intake and carb for a low compression, smog 400 that WILL WORK on THAT engine, when your gonna upgrade all that come stroker time. You WILL however need to get rid of that turd rear you have under it now. That IS NOT an 8 3/4" rear...please don't take offense to my reply here. I'm NOT a baker. I don't sugar coat things.