Four speed conversion kits - Passon or Brewer?

[Ghoste]

Anyone have useful opinions as to which is the better kit?

[polywideblock]

now they have started shipping the 855 5speed why go with 4 speed

[Ghoste]

Thats the transmission I would use but for the sake of conversion both companies list the kit as a four speed one.  Its just a name in this case and irrespective of the actual trans.

[polywideblock]

  write up in mopar muscle  gives glowing reports

[Ghoste]

Doesn't help me with who has the better conversion though.   

[polywideblock]

right ,  my bad   

[c00nhunterjoe]

I have used brewers many times. Excellent customer support. Very knowledged. Always answered the phone and was willing to talk.

[metallicareload99]

I am happy with Brewer's service, over the course of a few orders.  Went from 318/727 to 440 and a A-833.  Although I would like to get the Passon 5-Speed which is apparently finally shipping?

[Ghoste]

My understanding as well and I do want to use that trans so the idea of one stop shopping appeals to me but not if the conversion part of their business is lacking in any way.

[Troy]

To be clear...

Both offer 4-speed conversion kits. Both use stock parts. If going to an 18-spline 4-speed with factory correct parts you can basically expect identical components. Shop by price.

If you want a Passon 5-speed put yourself on the list and wait a year or so. The 5-speed uses a different shifter so if you purchase a 4-speed "kit" you're going to end up with extra parts in the end.

I live 45 minutes from Brewer's and they have always been helpful. Jamie Passon is a real good guy and I have bought stuff from him before as well. For me, it's cheaper to make a run up to Brewer's if I need something heavy because tax is less than than shipping. Passon's prices tend to be lower overall though.

Troy

[Ghoste]

Thanks Troy, that I think is more the kind of answer I was looking for.  The swap would be a year out so I guess that part works out too.
BTW, do you know if the Passon five speed is 23 spline or 18?

[Cooter]

5speed. Stupid money just like the hack job kits with TKO trannies.
I'd stick with the 4 speed and run higher gears.

[Ghoste]

Except that I don't want higher gears.

[red79]

Passon 5 speed is 18 spline. It's rated for 700hp... I guess they saw no reason to make a weaker 23 spline version 

[Cooter]

Except that I don't want higher gears.

got enough motor, you don't need deep gears tgat require an OD that will have you smoking pinion hearings, vibrating horribly, and causing you to take out a second mortgage to afford. But, I'd go with Brewer's given a chance.

[Ghoste]

Thats okay, its my money to spend and my car.  75% of my driving is local with occasional trips to the dragstrip so I want deeper gears and thats pretty much all there is to it.  I've had them in most every car I've had and learned to live with them quite happily.  I just want the overdrive for the occasional time I do that 5 or 6 hour freeway drive.

[Cooter]

Passon 5 speed is 18 spline. It's rated for 700hp... I guess they saw no reason to make a weaker 23 spline version  

You got any idea how many 'weaker' (typical brand X remark until I sell them a 23 spline unit to replace their badass 'Rock crusher Muncie) trannies I've broken with bonzai runs???
One.

Only reason they offered it in the 18 spline unit is for the uninformed who think they just have To have the 18 spline unit cause it's gotta be somehow, better. When the whole time, Passon coulda used the 23 spline input and manufactured it with the helical cut of the 18 spline....now, you have to pay three prices for a HEMI' clutch in order to run it. STUPID. But, that's what sells today.

[Troy]

The 23 spline input shaft is considerably weaker than the 18. There was no point in tooling up for both when the bulk of the market would demand the 18 spline. Tooling costs money so build what people will buy. Business 101.

Besides, a large portion of the market for the 5-speed are guys who already have a 4-speed and want a "drop in" replacement (ie NOT a full "conversion") to avoid modifying anything on the car. Most have an 18 spline already.

Troy

[1974dodgecharger]

Like cooter saids most only want 18 spline cause it came with hemi and Troy saids they will tool only for 18 since its what consumers will want.

[madmike]

I have purchased many items from Brewer's, and I rebuilt an 'A' body four speed last month (my first one).  I had a few questions, and Wayne was very helpful and provided good advice.  Service, parts availability, and quick shipping have always been top notch.

I have not bought anything from Passon, but like everyone else, I would like one of those A855's!

Mike

[Ghoste]

I'd have to count myself as one of the ones who prefers it in an 18 spline.  Overkill?  Maybe but I like that a whole helluva lot better than replacing broken parts.

[Cooter]

Again, I've only broken one A833 23 spline trans. I'll admit, it WAS NOT due to the engines torque. I let the input bearing get a little loose and crushed the input/cluster gears.

I have seen 600 hp 477 big block Chevies break Muncie's, but A833's live.

[Ghoste]

I broke one.  It was a long time ago but I don't care to do it again.

[Mike DC]

 
Now that Passon's 5spd is being made, does anyone know the fate of his earlier offering, the improved OD 4spd gearset for the A-833?  (It drops right into an existing 4spd case but is better built than the 1970s factory deal.)  Is that still going to be available?  I actually prefer fewer gears on a big torque motor.

[Cooter]

Big torque motor really doesn't need a 3.09 first gear of  the early units, if they are still being produced that way.

[Troy]

Now that Passon's 5spd is being made, does anyone know the fate of his earlier offering, the improved OD 4spd gearset for the A-833?  (It drops right into an existing 4spd case but is better built than the 1970s factory deal.)  Is that still going to be available?  I actually prefer fewer gears on a big torque motor.

They still have both. It's significantly cheaper to replace the gearset than to buy the 5-speed. Of course, if you buy the aluminum case and parts to match you may just be better off buying the 5-speed. Jamie apparently builds a lot of those for road racers (SCCA maybe?).

Troy

[JB400]

Only problems with the 833's that I've heard of is twisting the splines on the tail shafts.

[Mike DC]

Big torque motor really doesn't need a 3.09 first gear of  the early units, if they are still being produced that way.

Put tall gears in the axle and you've got a drivable street car with a very low cruising RPM in overdrive, even though the OD ratio is only like .80 or something.  It's natural that the ratios are widely spread down low and get closer together as they go up.    

 

[Cooter]

3.35 in first,  with T5 in GL. 3.23 gear. Shakes so bad in OD @75 mph you could churn butter on the dash.
first gear useless. I take off in second most times. OD @.68, I have to downshift on hills with 440..

Maybe I screwed up somewhere.

[Troy]

Why are you running 3.23s with an OD? How fast do you plan on going?

With the stock 26" tires and a non-OD trans the engine should be turning at 2,504 RPM at 60 mph. With 28" tires that drops to 2,326 RPM. Factor in the .68 OD and those fall to 1,702 and 1,581. Can you say "lugging the engine"?

Changing to 3.90 rear gears gives 3,024/2,056 OD RPM with stock tires and 2,808/1,909 OD RPM with 28" tires.

FYI - The "go to" rear tire for a second gen Charger is a 275/60-15 which is approximately 28" tall.

Troy

[Mike DC]

 
I don't know what in the hell the OEMs are thinking with some of the ratios they use.   My (5spd 318) Dakota's 1st gear is so low that you literally don't even roll forward the entire length of the vehicle before you start wanting to shift up.  WTF is with that?  And it's not like the gearing is just low in general, the jump to 2nd is so dramatic that it practically demands double-clutching. 

Yeah there's something to be said for a low 1st in a truck, but this is TOO low.   And this spacing seems to be typical for practically everything anymore, truck or car. 

[Cooter]

Why are you running 3.23s with an OD? How fast do you plan on going?

Not very 'fast' at all. Have you seen the price tag on 3.91 8 3/4 chunks today? I can convert a Dana 60 cheaper.
if it vibrates terribly now, with drive shaft speeds in the "sane" area....I can just bet how bad it will vibrate when drive shaft speeds are in the "insane" area...btw: that response was a tongue in cheek reply to OP post.

[darkside]

Has anyone on here ever got a  4 speed from passon?  I'm about ready to buy a hemi 4 speed from either brewers or passon ? Brewers is 6 weeks behind on orders.

[Troy]

Has anyone on here ever got a  4 speed from passon?  I'm about ready to buy a hemi 4 speed from either brewers or passon ? Brewers is 6 weeks behind on orders.

Brewer's is closer to me (only 45 minutes away) so I tend to use them for heavy stuff but I'd have absolutely no problem buying a rebuilt 4-speed from Passon. Pretty much anything at all really.

Troy

[fy469rtse]

Cooter you missed the point , Jamie at passons is like you , he doesn't like hack jobs, his five speed is a stock looking modern internals, fith gear is in the tail section, of unless you had two cars side by side, you wouldn't know, one friend of mine has one in one of his chargers , worth the wait, order it early, the only problem is speedo cable moved to the wrong side to make room for overdrive, he was working on a gear elbow to link speedo cable , otherwise you have to use a C body cable,
If I was doing a manual this is the one I would buy order now to have sitting here for when needed
Light weight machined case
All cnc machining
Overdrive
Stock fitting
I think you don't have mess with your tail shaft length,
My friend hooked up a seqential ratchet shifter, you can't engage reverse only from first, you can't miss a gear, mounted in stock location , he modified linkages to suit, I had a drive and it's great , no noise , smooth feels strong,

[Cooter]

Fy469rose, I think you missed MY point. Drive shaft speeds and vibrations go up once someone decides to dump 3.55-4.10 gears and run an OD trans. I cannot believe this is so hard to grasp that people will spend over 5k to only to find out their stuff vibrates anyway. Even with Passon's bolt in unit.

But you guys go ahead. I'll stick with my $300.00 OD vibrating like hell.

[fy469rtse]

Didn't mean to offend you cooter, great modern retro 5 speed is all that I was getting at , modern internals to get rid of a lot of those vibrations in the original units , especially when older and worn
Passons extra gear and shafts in tail section with all the needed bearings shafts etc to surport those gears sets, thus eliminating slop in out put shaft,
I drove it and it was so smooth , no vibrations , almost like a modern car

[Ghoste]

And 4:10's are precisely why I want one.

[Cooter]

No offense taken. Btw: vibrations have nothing to do with "slop" in gears. Has to do with trying to do the impossible in a car that was never designed to travel at speeds in excess of 90 mph for more than a few seconds.
once the drivetrain begins to turn INSANE  RPMs, poor machining/balancing of stock parts shows up quickly. But, you guys keep trying. I'd be interested in hearing from the one who finally pays out the ass for the latest thing only to find out it shakes horribly like my ole $300.00 swap, and gets it To stop vibrating..

Drive shaft speeds are crazy in OD with 4.10 gears. Not to mention, pinion bearings catch hell. But ya'll keep trying.

[Ghoste]

I'm going to, thanks.

[Cooter]

I'm going to, thanks.

See ya on here whinning bout vibrations.....

[Ghoste]

Wanna bet?  And not only am I going to do it anyway but I'm not going to do it with a 300 pos, I'm going to spend the huge money on the Passon one. 

[66FBCharger]

Did the guys who put the Keisler five speeds into cars with 4.10s have vibration problems? How about the Gear Vendors units? I never read any complaints.

[Ghoste]

I have 4:10's in my 67 right now and I don't have overdrive in it.  How many rpm do you think that driveshaft is turning?  And it doesn't vibrate.  The same rearend ratio at the same speed will turn the same rpm with with or without the overdrive.  The overdrive will mean the engine turns fewer rpm to get the rest spinning at the same speed as before so how do you figure just adding an overdrive will cause vibration?  How fast do y ou think I plan on going?  I'll tell you how fast.  The same speed as before but now at a lower engine rpm and therefore easier on fuel and the engine.

[Cooter]

I don't get it. Why hasn't anybody figured out lower the first three or four gears like many are today to keep drive shaft speeds down?
Doug Nash 5 speed non of comes to mind.

[Cooter]

Wanna bet?  And not only am I going to do it anyway but I'm not going to do it with a 300 pos, I'm going to spend the huge money on the Passon one.  

I hope so, but if what you say is true, I believe his screen name here is 'Paul G' spent 'the big bucks' and has at least one thread on vibrations..... $300.00, or $4k both still vibrate.

[Ghoste]

How fast do you think I plan to go?

[Cooter]

How fast do you think I plan to go?

Lemme see.....$5500.00 for an overdrive. And you plan on driving around town? Most of the stories/threads i see are from driving what's considered 'normal' today @75-85 mph.  Only two reasons people go with OD trans.
1. Lower rpms at higher speeds
2. Better mpg

[Ghoste]

Then you've made assumptions in my case that are wrong.

[Cooter]

Ok Ghoste, whatever. I'll be sure to bring the ketchup AND Mustard for my words.....

[Ghoste]

 

[Troy]

Lots of cars are running overdrive transmissions yet I don't see an overabundance of threads complaining about vibrations. I see them more from Gear Vendors conversions mainly because it changes the driveline angle. I'd assume a T-5 would (could) be similar. Considering how my car is built, there's very little of it that will act like it did when it was new.

Troy

[Cooter]

Just got my last issue of MM  mag rag, and they got their hands on one of these Pass on units.
I guess Pass on had to put the word out 4 years out to keep Kessler/American Pederson from doing their own version.
ok, bidness is bidness, but wonder when these will be out? A body was the first. I also remember thinking "damn thats alotta money for a Tremec that we broke it with a Fox body Mustang" when the problematic kits came out. Everybody jumped on em thinking they were gonna be awesome. Now look. Outta business because nobody wants a "hack job" conversion cause we have a bolt in deal now for same money....Wonder why the Tremec trans wasn't $5k? I think you can still get em for like $2300.00...

Thing is, I don't think it was the transmissions that vibrated cause I've run numerous versions in fox body's with no vibrations.
wonder what caused that trans to vibrate when installed in a different car? Things that make me go hmmmm.
wonder if those same Gremlins will plague this $5500.00 bolt in 5 speed......

I wonder why G.V. doesn't make a unit that will go behind a  4 speed long as we's dreamin.

[Troy]

Do you read? Just wondering. The Passon 5-speeds have been shipping for a few months. Trouble is, they have a small shop and a HUGE backlog. Additionally, they are NOT Tremec transmissions. Tremec cranks out millions of them so their "price per unit" will certainly be lower than a "boutique", custom built piece. The Passon trans is built to handle much more power AND be a direct "bolt-in" to a Mopar. The market gets a lot smaller in that case. Basic economics says they can't sell their product for the same price as a mass produced product. Not to mention, it's not even close to an "apples to apples" comparison. Do you also wonder why you can't buy a Viper for the same price as a Neon? And it's not $5,500 or $5,000 either.

According to Keisler, Tremec refused to sell them transmissions. Hard to sell product if you can't actually get parts. There was plenty of competition from other vendors selling T-5 swap kits but I seriously doubt the Passon unit put any sort of dent in their sales.

Troy

[Cooter]

Do you read? Just wondering. The Passon 5-speeds have been shipping for a few months.

I'm still working with the hooked on phonics. I ain't quite got the hang of it yet, but preciate the update.

[bill440rt]

I have zero vibration problems with my O.D. setup. This is with 3:91 gears. At 85mph on the freeway it is smooth as silk. We're talking a GM-based Keisler auto OD vs a 5-spd manual, though.
I think the vibration problem arises when retrofitting a kit in a car that may have a slight vibration problem to begin with. The OD just amplifies the problem because everything drivetrain related is spinning faster. A very slight vibration that is barely felt at 60mph now becomes a huge problem with the O.D.
The driveline angle as Troy mentioned is another factor.

[fy469rtse]

How do modern cars get around vibration issues, my friends car copied late model and incorporated CV joint to centre, this helped pinion angle problems ,

[Cooter]

How do modern cars get around vibration issues, my friends car copied late model and incorporated CV joint to centre, this helped pinion angle problems ,

Ever looked under one? There's little vibration dampers hanging off the front of diffs, rearends, etc.
some even have harmonic dampers on the front of driveshafts.