do you believe in sorcery/witchcraft ?

[Chargerguy74]

 
IMHO it's not just a question of whether or not our current theories about evolution have holes.  Does creation have so few holes as to rank MORE likely?  Putting the entire burden-of-proof on evolution is just as biased as putting it on creation.  


And IMHO the idea of some kind of creation process that was more planned than evolution is one thing.  The idea of a conscious, intelligent, moral overseer of the world who still pays close attention today, that is something else.  I personally don't think evidence for the former qualifies as evidence for the latter.  That's just me.



Along the same lines, IMHO disqualifying evolution on the whole because of certain holes in current theory/understanding is not so different from DQ'ing the entire creation side of the debate because of specific holes in that side.  The evolution side was criticized for being unable explain things earlier in the theory's development which were subsequently explained better.  Are details about the specific mechanisms of evolution more important than the larger picture?  

The bible doesn't even agree on the names of the 12 disciples or which/how many days Jesus was on the cross.  But I wouldn't point to that kind of stuff and say it proves that all of creation theory is fiction.  There is a lot of room for interpretation about what is a critical damaging hole in a theory and what isn't.  

Nobody on either side can be truly 100% without bias.  Nobody on either side evaluates things as fact-only as they think they do.

I agree with you. But I think the Bible is fairly clear on the points you bring up, not as clear as it can be sometimes. It definitely helps to understand Jewish tradition. I don't blindly follow anything, and have become a Christian after analyzing the religion. I just set out to find answers for myself and after a couple years of researching I became a believer. When I started I basically was seeing nothing but evidence against Christianity, but I was glad I kept looking. I really don't think science can disprove a creator. But whatever you believe requires faith, as we don't have all the answers.

[polywideblock]

wow has this got off topic       do you believe in sorcery/witchcraft ?


while we're so far off topic a quick question ,over here we are having a royal commission into sexual abuse in the church and  church run institutions .one orphanage even prostituted the kids out to "needy old men" on weekends (how Christian of them)      anyway the "church" is claiming that ALL their property /assets is community owned or charitable organisations so therefor  they can't be sold off to pay the millions (could be billions yet )in compensation to the thousands of "buggered boys"(priest fodder)  . they are crying poor while they own property all over Australia . if they were really Christian wouldn't they be  doing  anything to relieve the suffering of these boys/men    

what happened to vows of poverty and chastity ?

[twodko]

Righto Poly. I'll put us back on track. How many of us would like to know Elvira in a biblical way? 

[polywideblock]

 

[fy469rtse]

I believe, I have had to work with them regularly, sometimes there's three of them , just waiting for the day that they have there cauldron cooking up some spells, I know they regularly put curses and hexs on fellow workers

[moparsr2fast]

I believe, I have had to work with them regularly, sometimes there's three of them , just waiting for the day that they have there cauldron cooking up some spells, I know they regularly put curses and hexs on fellow workers

   Sorcery/witchcraft are indeed real. They are even referenced in the Bible. Isreal was forbidden to practice it. Why? Because it's basis and power are derived from evil. There are countless people who may not believe in God, and even more so who don't believe in Christ as the son of God, but many of those same people will believe in the Devil. If the Bible tells us that Lucifer was God's greatest creation, why can people believe in one but not the other? 
 
  So why is religion relevent to this thread?  Because Scripture tells us that Jesus Christ is head over all principalities and powers. It also tells us that as belevers, we are indwelt with the Holy Spirit.True believers are in fact, the body of Christ here on Earth. As such, we have power over sorceries and witchcraft. I personally have seen this play out on several occasions

  As far as priests doing those things which are against God's word, they are deceiving themselves thinking they are in the service of God. They shall have their "reward ".

[Dino]

The problem with evolution is it is a belief as well. There isn't that much evidence to support it, not like most think.

How many thousands of pages of evidence would you like?  There's plenty for all of us.

Darwin was extremely angry with God for the loss of his daughter at an early age and set out to deceive many.  This coming from his personal letters.

He was also dearly in love with his wife who was a believer.  Darwin shelved the entire project until he was forced to publish when Wallace came to the same conclusions. 
Both men were scientist and nobody set out to deceive anyone.  Darwin risked everything he had to show people that we were the ones being deceived.

Now I understand natural selection and adaptation, but evolving from the primordial ooze I can't fathom.

We didn't evolve DIRECTLY from that primordial ooze, there's a few billions years of stuff going on between then and now.  If you understand natural selection and adaptation then you're a rare breed, most people miss the ball completely so kudos.

Even Albert Einstein believed there was a creator and hated being misquoted as an atheist. And in regards to the big bang theory, out of nothing, nothing comes.

Einstein always fought with the idea and for the time it is definitely understandable.  Einstein, genius as he was, is also not the benchmark for scientists.  It's not because he believed in something that others followed.  Sceptics you know, weird bunch.    

On another note, look at things like Taylor Trail, we have evidence of man living with dinosaurs. We have ancient hieroglyphs of dinosaurs. Are we to just ignore this, or write it off? Dinosaurs are referenced in the old testament.

The Taylor Trail case has been proven over and over that the footprints did not belong to humans.  Unfortunately some creationists tried to get their way anyway and destroyed the site by trying to add prints.

Atheist scholars agree it's indisputable that Jesus of Nazareth existed and died as a result of crucifixion.

Very likely, not sure about the indisputability but yes, there is ample support to show the man did live and was on a cross, not 100% positive on the dying on the cross thing but he might have.

So we have a man, claiming to be God, performing miracles, who was tried and no fault found in him, then crucified for our transgression as prophesied 600 years before him by the prophet Isaiah. The apostle Paul interviewed many of the eye witnesses in the following decades after the death of Christ. To me, one can draw two conclusions. Either Jesus was a man who thought himself God, or he truly was God in the flesh. That's where I think the belief takes over.

To me, many more can be drawn, but without support it's a bit futile.

In regards to the flat earth, God told Job that the Earth is a sphere.

Not sure where that came from but okay.

We can go round and round on this but it stays the same, it's fact vs belief.  I don't like all the facts out there either and I'd rather belief other things, but it doesn't work that way.  Truth is still the important thing here.

[Dino]

I want to add one last thing, I got called away while typing the last post.

I want to stress once more that despite my own beliefs, you have as much right as anyone else to believe whatever you want.  My standpoint on this should be clear.

When I reply to a post like this, I do not do so to attack you or belittle you or any of that juvenile stuff.  I do so because I want to show people that if something is hard or impossible to explain then you do one thing:  you try to find an explanation, and if you succeed then great!  Mystery solved.  However when you cannot find any explanation then that is exactly what needs to be accepted, that you do not know.  What you do NOT do is make up stuff to rationalize it. 

No matter if you are a believer or non-believer, you need to ask questions and figure out what the source is.  If you believe something simply because it's stated in a book, then you need to have the support to back it up.  "Because it's in the Bible" is not an explanation. 

The only real way to do this is question everything (for those of you know thinking about the stuff I say, yes you absolutely should question it).  When you try to refute a claim and you cannot then you are on to something.  And if you cannot find support nor reason to dismiss, then you cannot claim anything except we do not know, and there is no shame in that.



Now, onto more serious matter:  in a fight who would kick butt.  Gandalf or Merlin?

[Chargerguy74]

I want to add one last thing, I got called away while typing the last post.

I want to stress once more that despite my own beliefs, you have as much right as anyone else to believe whatever you want.  My standpoint on this should be clear.

When I reply to a post like this, I do not do so to attack you or belittle you or any of that juvenile stuff.  I do so because I want to show people that if something is hard or impossible to explain then you do one thing:  you try to find an explanation, and if you succeed then great!  Mystery solved.  However when you cannot find any explanation then that is exactly what needs to be accepted, that you do not know.  What you do NOT do is make up stuff to rationalize it. 

No matter if you are a believer or non-believer, you need to ask questions and figure out what the source is.  If you believe something simply because it's stated in a book, then you need to have the support to back it up.  "Because it's in the Bible" is not an explanation. 

The only real way to do this is question everything (for those of you know thinking about the stuff I say, yes you absolutely should question it).  When you try to refute a claim and you cannot then you are on to something.  And if you cannot find support nor reason to dismiss, then you cannot claim anything except we do not know, and there is no shame in that.



Now, onto more serious matter:  in a fight who would kick butt.  Gandalf or Merlin?

[ACUDANUT]

 I have never heard of an atheist in a foxhole.  Some of you yellow belly's that have never been in the Military and never felt hopeless and alone can't grip true life.  Those of us in harms way have a different and stronger believe than you all green peace tree hugging liberal types.

[Chargerguy74]

For anyone interested, I've started reading a book called "There is a God" by Antony Flew. Flew was philosopher and former atheist who contributed a lot to modern atheism but ended up changing his mind and position on the topic. So far it's a really good read.

[Dino]

For anyone interested, I've started reading a book called "There is a God" by Antony Flew. Flew was philosopher and former atheist who contributed a lot to modern atheism but ended up changing his mind and position on the topic. So far it's a really good read.

I have yet to read it, it has been on my list for a very long time so I'll have to bump it up a bit.

The title of the book is a big clue to what he was trying to say:  A God, not THE God.  If I recall, he found something in DNA or RNA that lead him to intelligent design.  This does not correlate with the existing theologies though.  I for one would like to know more about it, unfortunately I'm not there yet.  I hope it's a good book!   

I have never heard of an atheist in a foxhole.  Some of you yellow belly's that have never been in the Military and never felt hopeless and alone can't grip true life.  Those of us in harms way have a different and stronger believe than you all green peace tree hugging liberal types.

You have really no clue who I am or what my life has been like up to this point yet you seem to know it all.  That is, all there is to know with 2 barely functioning brain cells.

Time after time you post the most aggressive, bigoted, extremist views.  Do you think only those in the military are real men?  Anything wrong with piece or do you enjoy seeing people suffer?

You're a sick bastard who knows nothing and acts on emotion without a thought.  What about the atheists trying to fight for their country but who get worked out, sometimes in serious violence, by their 'brothers' because they don't believe the same?  That's okay with you? 

You can drag your fat ass over here if you want to meet my yellow belly.  Bring help.

[Chargerguy74]

Yeah Dino, I kind of skipped through to find out, but I don't believe he came to Christ, or any theology (even though the book is touted as a winner of the Christianity today book award).

Dino, if you'll read it, I'll send you a copy. Just send me a PM with your info if you're game. Open offer.

[A383Wing]

Time after time you post the most aggressive, bigoted, extremist views. 

I'm with Dino on this one...I'm glad someone else has noticed this as well.....he never has anything nice to say to anyone or about anything here or on other forums...

even if someone offered him a hug, I bet he would complain about it

[Old Moparz]

I have never heard of an atheist in a foxhole.  Some of you yellow belly's that have never been in the Military and never felt hopeless and alone can't grip true life.  Those of us in harms way have a different and stronger believe than you all green peace tree hugging liberal types.

You have really no clue who I am or what my life has been like up to this point yet you seem to know it all.  That is, all there is to know with 2 barely functioning brain cells.

Time after time you post the most aggressive, bigoted, extremist views.  Do you think only those in the military are real men?  Anything wrong with piece or do you enjoy seeing people suffer?

You're a sick bastard who knows nothing and acts on emotion without a thought.  What about the atheists trying to fight for their country but who get worked out, sometimes in serious violence, by their 'brothers' because they don't believe the same?  That's okay with you? 

You can drag your fat ass over here if you want to meet my yellow belly.  Bring help.

It does get tiring, doesn't it? 

[4cruzin]

We can't believe this is still going?      I figured it was over as soon as We hit the religion topic?   

Let's try to play nice here guys!   

[moparsr2fast]

Now, onto more serious matter:  in a fight who would kick butt.  Gandalf or Merlin?

  I believe i will go with Merlin here...

[ws23rt]

Rut Ro--Is it not  predictable that a conflict would arise from a topic that led to religion?

This has been a hallmark of religious groups.  They fight each other.  Perhaps a method of checking the population?  Nature has odd and various ways to return to equilibrium.

[Dino]

I know I know, we are not supposed to talk about religion or politics so we don't fight...yet that is all we do as a society, is fight over those things.  I say to hell with that and let's talk dammit!   

But seriously, we tried converting the other side which led to more other sides so don't we started killing each other, but we're like bunnies and we multiply faster than we die, so that didn't work either.  What's wrong with talk?

Anyone can get emotional but grown people do have the capability to wake up, smell the roses and say we need to sit down and work this out.  That's not bound to happen in any type of government I've ever heard of, but we the foot folk sure can.

Take it or continue to annihilate yourself because you read different books.

Now, onto more serious matter:  in a fight who would kick butt.  Gandalf or Merlin?

  I believe i will go with Merlin here...

Yup, that's what I'm thinking.   

Yeah Dino, I kind of skipped through to find out, but I don't believe he came to Christ, or any theology (even though the book is touted as a winner of the Christianity today book award).

Dino, if you'll read it, I'll send you a copy. Just send me a PM with your info if you're game. Open offer.

That is very generous of you but I politely decline as I simply cannot see a time where I will be reading anything but college text books.  I have to many books collecting dust as it is.

Still, I thank you kindly for the offer.   

[twodko]

I have never heard of an atheist in a foxhole.  Some of you yellow belly's that have never been in the Military and never felt hopeless and alone can't grip true life.  Those of us in harms way have a different and stronger believe than you all green peace tree hugging liberal types.

WORD.

[twodko]

Merlin fo sho'. Gandalf is good but the MerlMan wrote the book.

[71green go]

Righto Poly. I'll put us back on track. How many of us would like to know Elvira in a biblical way?  

I believe in God   as he helped me bump into Elvira at Performance world car show into Toronto years ago....she was walking up the aisle with body guards , I didn't see her coming and we collided ...yes they felt great...and yes the body guards were all over me...in the end I got a hug

I truly believe man kind needs something to believe in to make it through tragedies in their lives or through terrifying ordeals such as war....some can make it through on their own while others need to believe in something
I think the world would be a terrible place if those who believe stopped believing......I think fear of what happens after life keeps most people in check...

[polywideblock]

Now, onto more serious matter:  in a fight who would kick butt.  Gandalf or Merlin?

 I believe i will go with Merlin here...

has anyone read "magician"   by Raymond e feist   very good read and if you have you'll agree milamber /pug would kick all their asses at once  


 

[Dino]

Righto Poly. I'll put us back on track. How many of us would like to know Elvira in a biblical way?  

I believe in God   as he helped me bump into Elvira at Performance world car show into Toronto years ago....she was walking up the aisle with body guards , I didn't see her coming and we collided ...yes they felt great...and yes the body guards were all over me...in the end I got a hug


That is hysterical!  And I'm really jealous  right now!   


I truly believe man kind needs something to believe in to make it through tragedies in their lives or through terrifying ordeals such as war....some can make it through on their own while others need to believe in something
I think the world would be a terrible place if those who believe stopped believing......I think fear of what happens after life keeps most people in check...

You make very valid points.  I agree we all need something, or at least it would help.  We all cope in a different way and I too would much rather want that somehow we live on and somehow the loved ones we lost are still out there.  But I need to recognize we are no different than other animals, we just want to be.

I think there are plenty people that are not ready for that big of a change.  Especially those whose entire lives revolve around religion.  We can find all the evidence to support science and refute theology, many will simply refute the evidence.  Happens all the time.  I can't always blame them either.  It sucks big time to find out the real world is not like the one you imagined it was.  I just flashed back to a few moments in my past myself!  I'm not sure why it's so horrible to let go of religion for the most of us though.  Is it because of fear of the unknown?  Fear of life wasted?  Would it feel as betrayal towards the parents and family?  Good people are good people, no reason to think life will fall apart.  Maybe it's the dying thing, I dunno.
Whatever it is, as a society we take into account the individual but as a species we cannot.  The better progress is that one that benefits all of us, not a few of us. 

Elvira...maaaaaaan!    

[Mike DC]

  
This life isn't very fair.  It's not much fun believing there are no consequences for anyone's good & bad actions beyond it.