do you believe in sorcery/witchcraft ?

[ws23rt]

We know quite a bit of how things work, more than you know.  But before you get your panties in a twist, there is indeed a ton of stuff we cannot explain.      And I'm not one to explain it with magic, there's no point.

If you need faith in your life then by all means have at it.  I work with people from all backgrounds and religions, or lack thereof, and we can all work together just fine.  Be ethical, be good to your fellow man and everything else will work out.  I really don't care how you see the world, I care how you treat it.

Don't get in my face with your beliefs and I will return the favor.  Don't attack John for his belief, he merely commented on what is really severely annoying.  You are not a better person because you believe in a deity, you're the same as me: an insignificant life form like the other few billion.

And don't ask for proof if you can't deliver it yourself, if there was proof of any of these thousands of Gods we have had throughout history then we'd all be believers.  Proving a negative is still impossible despite numerous feeble attempts to do just that.  Prove to me there are no invisible time travelers, not easy is it?

Why is it that every time the subject even leans towards politics or religion you guys go all haywire?  Nothing is completely right or wrong, good or bad, black or white so why fight over it?  Don't we all want the same?  A bit of peace and quiet, someone to share life with and enjoy this short existence?  Isn't that why we put all this energy in our cars?  For the fun of it?

Just be nice and try to show some understanding, it's really not that hard.

Peace

Well done Dino

[ws23rt]

Topics like this will stir conflicting opinions forever because there is no way to put any of it to rest.

I have been one that accepts things that I see and feel as being real and not those that I felt to be questionable.  It is what I do to avoid being wrong or foolish.

One of many examples of what made me back up on knowing stuff is this tid bit.

We are made of atoms.---Our best study of atoms is that the vast volume they occupy it empty space.  Nucleus (very small) surrounded by electrons (smaller yet then very small ).  They are kinda like little solar systems---(99.999999etc.) empty space. So we are atoms and that makes us empty space. We are without real substance. Only odd forces that are little understood.

Another example of what makes me hold my (understanding) opinion of us and stuff in general is gravity.

Gravity is one of the most influential yet least understood forces that we deal with. Who among us would deny gravity?  Our best description of gravity is it is a bending of empty space caused by things like us that are made of empty space that makes things seem to fall toward each other.

As for dreams  ----So who is the one that knows all about this?   They seem to be storys created by the brain using bits and pieces of recent and old memories.   People invent stories as part of our nature.  We (seem) to live and feel things and then we fix what we don't like that may not have been real in the first place

Lets all stop telling each other how they are and enjoy what we think we are. Please grow up to our amoeba level and make a living.

[Chargerguy74]

  While I believe in the deity of Christ, and the fact that He was an atonement for our sins, I would have to agree with Poly that a very hi percentage of " organized religion " just doesn't get it. I am not saying that i know everything, or even much, but I do know that true Christianity  is based solely on God's Word, and not what some denomination, parish, or whatever chooses to interpet for you.

  As far as ghosts, I myself believe that those manifestations are actually part of Satan's group that followed him over God. Some people would call them demons, fallen angels etc... but i believe they mimic a person who has passed in order to be more effective in a given circumstance. 

I agree with this.

[Old Moparz]

We know quite a bit of how things work, more than you know.  But before you get your panties in a twist, there is indeed a ton of stuff we cannot explain.      And I'm not one to explain it with magic, there's no point.

If you need faith in your life then by all means have at it.  I work with people from all backgrounds and religions, or lack thereof, and we can all work together just fine.  Be ethical, be good to your fellow man and everything else will work out.  I really don't care how you see the world, I care how you treat it.

Don't get in my face with your beliefs and I will return the favor.  Don't attack John for his belief, he merely commented on what is really severely annoying.  You are not a better person because you believe in a deity, you're the same as me: an insignificant life form like the other few billion.

And don't ask for proof if you can't deliver it yourself, if there was proof of any of these thousands of Gods we have had throughout history then we'd all be believers.  Proving a negative is still impossible despite numerous feeble attempts to do just that.  Prove to me there are no invisible time travelers, not easy is it?

Why is it that every time the subject even leans towards politics or religion you guys go all haywire?  Nothing is completely right or wrong, good or bad, black or white so why fight over it?  Don't we all want the same?  A bit of peace and quiet, someone to share life with and enjoy this short existence?  Isn't that why we put all this energy in our cars?  For the fun of it?

Just be nice and try to show some understanding, it's really not that hard.

Peace

Internet Trolls Really Are Horrible People

[John_Kunkel]

John_Kunkel.....Reading your previous posts it's too bad you Atheists have to begrudge everyone that does not hold your same viewpoint,

Not true at all, I believe that everybody has a right to their opinion as long as they don't try to force that opinion on others. The Bible tasks all Christians to do just that.

Do you have proof God does not exist? .....Yeah that's what I thought...

You don't understand the concept of proof, the one making the claim bears the burden of proof....if you claim God exists it's up to you to prove it. "People of faith" are called that because they can't prove the existence of a diety, they only have "faith" that their beliefs are true.

[moparsr2fast]

John_Kunkel.....Reading your previous posts it's too bad you Atheists have to begrudge everyone that does not hold your same viewpoint,

Not true at all, I believe that everybody has a right to their opinion as long as they don't try to force that opinion on others. The Bible tasks all Christians to do just that.

  We are to go forth preaching the word unto all the world, but.... if you and I happen to be working together on one of our chargers, and I do not bring the subject up, the Bible says that even how I act should be a testimony. You should be able to tell something is different about me... perhaps i am silent when you tell me of the chick you brought home a few nights back for example. Eventually, it will come up over time why i react to a given stimulus differently then the majority of people. At that point, you may tell me that you absolutely do not believe in God, whereareas, my whole life is based on my beliefs. I have fulfilled my Christian " task " as it pertains to you. My beliefs have not been forced upon you any more then yours have been forced upon me.

The problem here is, when people lump, say Jehovas Witnesses for example, with Christianity, then what a person who is not familiar with scripture sees, is a group of " Christians " forcing their opinions on others. That would not be an accurate observation, but happens on a consistent basis

[Chad L. Magee]

Topics like this will stir conflicting opinions forever because there is no way to put any of it to rest.

I have been one that accepts things that I see and feel as being real and not those that I felt to be questionable.  It is what I do to avoid being wrong or foolish.

One of many examples of what made me back up on knowing stuff is this tid bit.

We are made of atoms.---Our best study of atoms is that the vast volume they occupy it empty space.  Nucleus (very small) surrounded by electrons (smaller yet then very small ).  They are kinda like little solar systems---(99.999999etc.) empty space. So we are atoms and that makes us empty space. We are without real substance. Only odd forces that are little understood.

Another example of what makes me hold my (understanding) opinion of us and stuff in general is gravity.

Gravity is one of the most influential yet least understood forces that we deal with. Who among us would deny gravity?  Our best description of gravity is it is a bending of empty space caused by things like us that are made of empty space that makes things seem to fall toward each other.

As for dreams  ----So who is the one that knows all about this?   They seem to be storys created by the brain using bits and pieces of recent and old memories.   People invent stories as part of our nature.  We (seem) to live and feel things and then we fix what we don't like that may not have been real in the first place

Lets all stop telling each other how they are and enjoy what we think we are. Please grow up to our amoeba level and make a living.

As a chemist, I want to take your post a bit futher:

All matter (and antimatter) is composed of light energy.  That was proposed by Albert Einstein's Special Theory of Relativity (ie. E=mc^2 equation that most people know) and has been proven during nuclear processes.  How energy forms into matter is still a question that is being worked on to this day.  We can transform matter into energy (nuclear fission, fusion, or my favorite annihilation processes) but have yet to do the reverse.  I believe it can be done and in our lifetimes.  However, we will never know everything during our existance, so we are constantly on the hunt to explore for more knowledge to fill in the missing gaps.  How does this relate to science in general?  If you talk to physicists, they understand the physical world as a series of particles that become progressively smaller and smaller.  Their interactions lead to physical properties of matter.  Eventually there has to be a limit to define matter as even the EMS (electromagnetic spectrum) has a limit to the amount of energy that it can contain on the lower side of the spectrum.  Chemists see the same world, but tend to work with the larger particles (electrons, protons, neutrons combined into atoms) when dealing with our chemical world.  We see the relationships that atoms/molecules have with each other that leads to chemical properties during reactions.  Eventhough we see the situation differently in some ways, we do not think that the other side is better or worse, rather that they compliment each other.  A good chemist is one who can realize that other areas have just as much to offer (just in a different toolcase).  Sometimes, the hunt is the most important part of the whole scheme.  Case in point:  I spend much of my free time on weekends working on theories that I have on quantum mechanics that may lead to a possible solution to Einstein's great puzzle of relating gravity to electromagnetic forces.  This is how I relax.  It is a real challenge to solve, but fun to do so, even if I do not get the correct answer by the end of my time on earth.  If you ever see me out in a public place scribbling on papers, that is what I am likely working on.....

[moparsr2fast]

  I spent a whole day once doing nothing but trying to figure out a viable transwarp theory so the starship Voyager fron Star Trek series  could find their way home. And while this is purely speculative  fiction at best, it was still immensely  relaxing ..

[A383Wing]

Every 4 weeks, my wife turns evil....oh, wait.....

[Lord Warlock]

Do I believe? yes I do, do I practice? not really.  I just think along similar lines to what religion was in the days before Christianity.  Believe whatever you want, just don't preach it to me unless i ask you about it and we'll be fine.  Don't get too upset if you see me wandering around the yard under a full moon or during one of the major solstice.   

[bull]

IMO there's nothing logical to the idea of incidental existence. When I see a car I see design impetus. When I see a tree, an eyeball, a bug, I see something that was designed. It makes zero sense to me that a person can believe a mechanical device was designed and built and yet a biological entity came to be by an accidental conglomeration of atoms. Beyond that there are systems at work all around us that seem quite void of random chance. One moon that enables life's incredible balance on Earth. Just the right distance, just the right size, just the right orbit, etc. Accident? Happenstance? I don't see it.That's just one example. How many dozens of systems can you think of at work all around us? Ecology, hydrology, the food chain, the atmosphere, our magnetic field, etc. Intelligent design. To believe otherwise requires more faith than I am capable of.

Additionally, even if life were a random occurance where does personality come from? How is it everything is so individualized? Emotion, the ability to learn, intuition, thought patterns, humor, compassion, etc. Do we chaulk that up to a bazillion years of evolution too? Nah, I can't do that. Doesn't compute.

[moparsr2fast]

 

[Indygenerallee]

X2 Bull

[Cooter]

I think I remember somewhere in the bible, they wanted to see Jesus perform a miracle or two in order to believe.
spiritually speaking, some believe some need proof....
Earthly speaking,  some ALWAYS need proof.

[Dino]

IMO there's nothing logical to the idea of incidental existence. When I see a car I see design impetus. When I see a tree, an eyeball, a bug, I see something that was designed. It makes zero sense to me that a person can believe a mechanical device was designed and built and yet a biological entity came to be by an accidental conglomeration of atoms. Beyond that there are systems at work all around us that seem quite void of random chance. One moon that enables life's incredible balance on Earth. Just the right distance, just the right size, just the right orbit, etc. Accident? Happenstance? I don't see it.That's just one example. How many dozens of systems can you think of at work all around us? Ecology, hydrology, the food chain, the atmosphere, our magnetic field, etc. Intelligent design. To believe otherwise requires more faith than I am capable of.

Additionally, even if life were a random occurance where does personality come from? How is it everything is so individualized? Emotion, the ability to learn, intuition, thought patterns, humor, compassion, etc. Do we chaulk that up to a bazillion years of evolution too? Nah, I can't do that. Doesn't compute.

Bull I quote you here but please do not see this as a reply to you alone.  I am in no way trying to attack you.  I'm not going to turn this into a pissing contest, as I said you believe whatever you want.  However, all the things you mention can readily be explained, but it takes an effort on your part to want to learn.  And with you, again, I mean all of us.  I will also respect you by capitalizing God.

If cars and life forms were made the same way then intelligent design would the only explanation, but they have nothing in common.  Cars also do not evolve, not without more design.  Life does.  If someone does not agree with that statement, you're going to have a ball trying to refute the few million facts we have to support it.  It is all around us.  

If you knew biology and chemistry, then evolution becomes so in your face that it is really hard to ignore.  Life is not this flash bang, happened in 20 minutes, deal.  Our roots were laid down millions of years ago.  Emotions are chemical reactions, most life forms have it.  It's not that hard to induce an emotion in anyone with the right cocktail of chemicals.  

Science means knowing and you cannot know something without having support for a hypothesis.  Not proof, support.  As a scientist you set out to find something that will refute your hypothesis.  Only when you cannot do so, can you accept support.  Science does not willy nilly accept things, ever.  

In case anyone cares, I never decided to stop believing, I never WANTED to stop believing but I started asking questions at a young age and was pretty much forced out of religion.  

At this point in my life I can explain all hypotheses on how life (anaerobic) came to be on this planet, I can also explain how aerobic life formed and why.  And I can explain how life works, evolves and becomes extinct.  I can also explain the origin, size and role of the moon.  The moon does not just play a role in balancing life, the moon is WHY there is life in the first place.  Oh and we are aware of life in other solar systems, but not intelligent life.  We do not have the means to find out either, we can only see what comes raining down onto our planet every single day.  Life from out there.

I'll get flamed for this up the wazoo no doubt  so please accept my apologies if I offended you and try to think about how I feel when I am seen as a human that belongs somewhere between pond scum and arthritis, just because I know some of the beliefs don't hold up to any scrutiny.  I have never needed a God to be an ethical person, to do good rather than evil, to learn rather than assume.  And I will never apologize for it either.

I am a skeptic, I have to be.  As much as I WANT there to be a place for the good and another for the bad, as much as I WANT there to be fairness and justice, there isn't.  I know you hate hearing it but there is a lot of support to show man created God while there is none in the other direction.  Even the things we have support for are constantly under barrage by others to dismiss it and that is a very good thing.  If it is not true, it has no place in science and if someone tomorrow finds support for the existence of God then you can bet I will take that seriously.

It's easy to claim but not so much when you need to show for it.  I can back up mine so be aware of that if you feel the need to challenge me.

By the way, I believe the same as you do, but added one more God to the list.

So be a God person or not, doesn't really matter, but try to be a good person.



Once more: Peace

[Mike DC]

 
 


Wow Dino, you really nailed my position here.  Not only the final viewpoint, but also the framework of what led me to it and the way I feel about it.   

[John_Kunkel]

My beliefs have not been forced upon you any more then yours have been forced upon me.

Maybe not you specifically, but what about those who would love to turn the USA into a Christian theocracy? By passing laws that force one to adhere to certain moral doctrine under the threat of punishment, you (collectively) force your beliefs upon non-believers.

[John_Kunkel]

Accident? Happenstance? I don't see it.

It is possible to share that sentiment without accepting it as the work of a deity.

[Nacho-RT74]

aaand still I don't know... maybe my heart is weak, but sometimes I still think sometimes something goes suddenly wrong and you don't know how it happened

[ws23rt]

I hear stuff like things can't just happen by accident---the word accident seems inappropriate because it infers that an attempt was made and something went wrong.

Some say that things must have been created because the amazing complexity can't be. Just because what we see and feel appears complex is no reason to throw up ones hands and say it must have been created.   If so a creator would have to be even more complex and therefor harder to accept.

My mind wonders and wanders about what is reality like most of us.  I think about things like why would a creator make a universe with things like evolution in it. Are the clues that creatures evolve just a kind of humor?  To cause descent?

My interest in science is that it's a language to describe the simple nature of things and part of my nature is I am curious.  I use the word simple because all is made of simple things there are just a lot of them that work together and that is what is awesome.

Part of the trouble we have with understanding the nature of things is the size of it all.  When we start talking about the distances we can see and the time involved in seeing it our minds tend to choke up a bit.  When numbers for instance get very big they tend to blur in our minds. When we start talking about infinity our minds can't feel the size because our ability to grasp things is rather limited.  

Those that say such and such is so are really saying as far as I can see.   Like looking out to sea back in the day and knowing their must be an edge.

An interesting tid bit I heard today about a poll taken of teens and 20s that said 26% think the sun goes around the earth  We may be on our way back to the comfort of the flat earth

[Chargerguy74]

The problem with evolution is it is a belief as well. There isn't that much evidence to support it, not like most think. Darwin was extremely angry with God for the loss of his daughter at an early age and set out to deceive many.  This coming from his personal letters. Now I understand natural selection and adaptation, but evolving from the primordial ooze I can't fathom. Even Albert Einstein believed there was a creator and hated being misquoted as an atheist. And in regards to the big bang theory, out of nothing, nothing comes.

On another note, look at things like Taylor Trail, we have evidence of man living with dinosaurs. We have ancient hieroglyphs of dinosaurs. Are we to just ignore this, or write it off? Dinosaurs are referenced in the old testament.

Atheist scholars agree it's indisputable that Jesus of Nazareth existed and died as a result of crucifixion. So we have a man, claiming to be God, performing miracles, who was tried and no fault found in him, then crucified for our transgression as prophesied 600 years before him by the prophet Isaiah. The apostle Paul interviewed many of the eye witnesses in the following decades after the death of Christ. To me, one can draw two conclusions. Either Jesus was a man who thought himself God, or he truly was God in the flesh. That's where I think the belief takes over.

In regards to the flat earth, God told Job that the Earth is a sphere.

[ws23rt]

I may be wrong about what the word evolution means but it seems for most it is a progression from the simple to the complex.

I don't see it like that.  Natural selection is an observable. And all it does is show that what can reproduce will and those anomalies that don't will not.

That complicated creatures happen seems to be due to the vast size and stability of the environment combined with lots of time.

Evolution is an example I picked to use to illustrate a situation where clues and information abound to piece together the nature of where we live. These clues are of course a large part of the creation if that is what we have.  Or they are pieces of the description of reality.

I have long ago given up on saying how things are in a definitive way. I started using the term (apparent reality) in order to move on in a discussion.

I have no better in-site to the nature of things than anyone else.  In fact the more we learn about the universe the more questions arise. And I personally love that.

[twodko]

My beliefs have not been forced upon you any more then yours have been forced upon me.

Maybe not you specifically, but what about those who would love to turn the USA into a Christian theocracy? By passing laws that force one to adhere to certain moral doctrine under the threat of punishment, you (collectively) force your beliefs upon non-believers.

I prime example of this is Islamic Sharia Law. Nazis in turbans.

[Mike DC]

  
IMHO it's not just a question of whether or not our current theories about evolution have holes.  Does creation have so few holes as to rank MORE likely?  Putting the entire burden-of-proof on evolution is just as biased as putting it on creation.  


And IMHO the idea of some kind of creation process that was more planned than evolution is one thing.  The idea of a conscious, intelligent, moral overseer of the world who still pays close attention today, that is something else.  I personally don't think evidence for the former qualifies as evidence for the latter.  That's just me.



Along the same lines, IMHO disqualifying evolution on the whole because of certain holes in current theory/understanding is not so different from DQ'ing the entire creation side of the debate because of specific holes in that side.  The evolution side was criticized for being unable explain things earlier in the theory's development which were subsequently explained better.  Are details about the specific mechanisms of evolution more important than the larger picture?  

The bible doesn't even agree on the names of the 12 disciples or which/how many days Jesus was on the cross.  But I wouldn't point to that kind of stuff and say it proves that all of creation theory is fiction.  There is a lot of room for interpretation about what is a critical damaging hole in a theory and what isn't.  

Nobody on either side can be truly 100% without bias.  Nobody on either side evaluates things as fact-only as they think they do.

[Chad L. Magee]

My interest in science is that it's a language to describe the simple nature of things and part of my nature is I am curious.  I use the word simple because all is made of simple things there are just a lot of them that work together and that is what is awesome.

Part of the trouble we have with understanding the nature of things is the size of it all.  When we start talking about the distances we can see and the time involved in seeing it our minds tend to choke up a bit.  When numbers for instance get very big they tend to blur in our minds. When we start talking about infinity our minds can't feel the size because our ability to grasp things is rather limited.  

Those that say such and such is so are really saying as far as I can see.   Like looking out to sea back in the day and knowing their must be an edge.

An interesting tid bit I heard today about a poll taken of teens and 20s that said 26% think the sun goes around the earth  We may be on our way back to the comfort of the flat earth

This brought up a question that has been bugging me for a while now about large distances.  If you look at the estimated age of the known universe, it is nearly 14 billion years old.  So, based upon that fact, if light travels in a constant speed for that entire time from the point of the big bang, then the universe should have a radius equivalent to 14 billion light years and a diameter of double that.  But, it does not according to other information:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observable_universe

My take on this is that we do live in a universe that has many more dimensions for which light energy (and possibly matter) can travel through than just the ones we can see or measure.  If that is the case, then the known universe distance would bascially be next to impossible to accrately calculate, since distance may not equate equally through all dimensions, nor the speed of light remain a strict constant in those dimentions (much like a tunneling effect thru an object in 3-D space can equate to speeds faster than the known c).  I understand that there is a relationship with black holes and neutron stars, some of which involve these higher dimensionalities leading to the formation of dark energy and dark matter in theory.  Something to ponder over  ....