Manual Steering Box 24:1, 20:1, 16:1

[2Luke2]

So we are moving to a manual steering box, but we are unsure if going all the way to the 16:1 box would be the right choice. 

We have lightened up the front end a bit and think it might not be a big deal, but wanted to get some others opinions on the matter. So far we have aluminum heads, aluminum intake, aluminum radiator, moved the battery to the trunk, replaced the stock manifolds with long tube headers, removed the A/C compressor and all the hoses and radiator that went with it, QA1 tubular LCAs, QA1 tubular K frame(not sure if this is actually lighter than the stock K), removed the power steering reservoir/pump and hoses, and of course the power steering box is 39lbs and the manual is 14-16lbs I think? We think that's a pretty good amount of weight in our opinion. We aren't sure of the exact amount though. We are using a 15" steering wheel currently though could go bigger. The garage is cold or I would get the exact tire size, but I think it's a 225 something r15 on the front; might be a 245.

Anyway do you guys and gals think that's enough weight to not see a huge difference for the 20:1 vs the 16:1 ratio? I'm not a pencil thin guy, but I'm also not 6' 225lb. haha.. So I expect some slow moving to be a bit difficult. I've also ignored enough wise people and have gotten burned in the past; so I've started to take to heart some wisdom that is bestowed upon me from those with more experience.

[Kern Dog]

Too bad the only way to know for sure is to either take the plunge or to drive another manual trans equipped car built the same way.
The 24 ratio is an easy drive. That ratio was chosen by the engineers because it allowed easy steering for the target buyers. The low speed manuvers such as parking lots are no problem. The steering response will be pretty slow as a result. Forget any autocross type action. At over 5 1/2 turns lock to lock, there is just too many turns needed to react quickly. On the other end is the 16 ratio. To compare how it might feel, you could remove the belt from your P/S pump and drive the car. The power steering gear has a 15.7 ratio which is very close. The non assisted power unit will steer a little harder than a similar manual box but it does give you some idea for no $$$ to spend.

Personally, I am considering an upgrade to the Borgeson steering chuck. I currently have a Firm Feel Stage 3 box and am not 100% happy with it. I don't blame the FF guys, its more of an issue with the engineering within the chuck itself. The Borgeson unit is supposed to be much more responsive with greater feel to it. My issue is that "feel" is so directly related to ones own preference. What one guy likes, another may not. It is an expensive change and before I spend the $$$, I'd want to drive a car with the Borgeson box to make sure I like it enough to shell out the cash.

[Mike DC]

    
If you buy a Borgeson box & don't like it, I would take it off your hands for 2/3rds of what you paid.    


But seriously, are you sure it's really a steering box issue that you are trying to solve?  No improved steering box is gonna increase the caster or tighten the pot coupler or bushings, etc.    

[1974dodgecharger]

I drive a manual steering and yeah slow parking its a pain your arse unless your pretty strong.  Im able to do it its not bad and Im not a big guy, but doable.  The downfall is trying to park the big boat charger with its bad turning radius and you have a recipe for multiple tries trying to back up to park somewhere or turn into somewhere to park lets say a parking lot with lots of cars of some sort.

What you described is what I have manual steering, manual tranny, 15inch steering wheel, but my tires are fronts 245 and 295s in rears. 


Personally I would not get a bigger steering it will just get in the way trying to turn it at 15 I think its great go smaller you will keep turning over and over lol...

If I could I would get a 16:1 ratio, but from what I read I cant due to my headers or something?

[Kern Dog]

The ratio is related to the guts inside the steering chuck. All the manual boxes are the same external dimensions. It is the longer idler and pitman arms that cause interference sometimes.

[2Luke2]

Maybe he's referring to the fast ratio idler/pitman arm?

Thanks to everyone for your responses.  We still need to consider it a bit longer, but we will probably got with a 16:1.

[1974dodgecharger]

Maybe he's referring to the fast ratio idler/pitman arm?

Thanks to everyone for your responses.  We still need to consider it a bit longer, but we will probably got with a 16:1.

my bad, yeah I was referring to that I wanted the fast ratio idler/pitman arm setup or something like that hotchkis sells this kit and my headers get in the way or something like that.  Its one of the last things on my list like bottom of the list of things I want to do to the car.

[Highbanked Hauler]

Too bad the only way to know for sure is to either take the plunge or to drive another manual trans equipped car built the same way.
The 24 ratio is an easy drive. That ratio was chosen by the engineers because it allowed easy steering for the target buyers. The low speed manuvers such as parking lots are no problem. The steering response will be pretty slow as a result. Forget any autocross type action. At over 5 1/2 turns lock to lock, there is just too many turns needed to react quickly. On the other end is the 16 ratio. To compare how it might feel, you could remove the belt from your P/S pump and drive the car. The power steering gear has a 15.7 ratio which is very close. The non assisted power unit will steer a little harder than a similar manual box but it does give you some idea for no $$$ to spend.

Personally, I am considering an upgrade to the Borgeson steering chuck. I currently have a Firm Feel Stage 3 box and am not 100% happy with it. I don't blame the FF guys, its more of an issue with the engineering within the chuck itself. The Borgeson unit is supposed to be much more responsive with greater feel to it. My issue is that "feel" is so directly related to ones own preference. What one guy likes, another may not. It is an expensive change and before I spend the $$$, I'd want to drive a car with the Borgeson box to make sure I like it enough to shell out the cash.

  When  you say engineering  of the chuck itself do you mean the speed ratio that it turns or do you mean the feel that comes back through the steering wheel ? I have manual  steering with 275's on my car and the two problems I have are maneuvering in a tight place and the steering ratio in turns. To make a particular turn in our PT is a  quarter turn, The Charger takes a full turn and 3/4 on the same corner. I was figuring on getting a FF stage three box and fast ratio  steering arms. Is the Borgeson box that much faster or is it the feel ?

[Kern Dog]

I was referring to the actual limitations that the "circa 1957" Chrysler Power Steering boxes are saddled with. They are fine for 93% of us Mopar guys but they have their limitations. One of them is that no matter how much work you put into them, you may still have some vague/numb feelings a few degrees off of center. Rack and Pinion steering is a more precise design but not a cheap and easy conversion. My 186,000 Ram 1500 has R&P and still responds like new. A Mopar P/S chuck with 80,000 miles on it is often ready for a full rebuild.
The Borgeson unit is a converted Jeep chuck. If nothing else, at the very least it is NOT a rebuilt 45 year old unit based on 57 year old technology. Not to bash anything here, I'm just trying to explain.

[Highbanked Hauler]

 Is that loose feeling still there with a stage three box that you have now ?

[Mike DC]

     
I've had a couple of Cherokees & Grands from the 1990s.  I remember that box feeling pretty tight.  (Boy, does that sound like an innuendo!) 

[RallyeMike]

Tire size, car weight, and caster have everything to do with this:

My 68 Dart with 24:1, big block, 3100lb car, and 195 tires up front was no problem to drive or even turn sitting still. Caster was set dead stock.

My 72 Charger, 20:1, (car weight unknown, but guess = 3500lb) big block with aluminum heads, water pump housing, intake, lightweight headers, aluminum case 833, and 255 tires is fine when moving, but still a bit of a bear in a parking lot. If it wasnt dialed in to maximum caster to enhance straight line stability, it would be much more drivable at low speeds.

I started out with a stock 24:1 which was ok to drive, but too unresponsive for cornering maneuvers. Given my experience, I would never go with 16:1 on a heavy, fat tire car.

My vote all things considered is 20:1 and caster it slightly more negative than the stock setting to allow easier turning.



PS, don't forget to count losing the PS pump in your weight loss number! I think the overall savings is 60+lbs!

[2Luke2]

Thanks! We forgot to say we have an aluminum water pump/housing as well. What we don't want to do is to go to a 20:1 and then say "I wonder what 16:1 feels like?" haha...

[RallyeMike]

Both my mopar chassis and circle track book talk about upgrading to 20:1. They don't even mention 16:1 manual steerring. I'm not sure if that's becasue the books are outdated, or what (?).

Good luck.

[Kern Dog]

I thought that I read somewhere that the 16-1 wasn't a common option. The story WAS that the parts to convert a 24 or a 20-1 box to a 16-1 was available from the Mopar parts dept.

[RallyeMike]

My books list the 20:1 part number. No mention of 16:1. Maybe it was later or short-lived. I'd never bother to try it, so it's a moot point for me.

[2Luke2]

Well it seems that everywhere we look they are only selling the 16:1 ratio boxes. So that's really why we brought it up here. We are thinking of a steer and gear box since they do sell a 20:1 box.

[2Luke2]

We called Steer and Gear today and they were out of their manual boxes. So we gave Firmfeel a call and ended up ordered a 20:1 box. Should be here in a couple weeks. We have to send our QA1 k-frame back for the 4th time so we are in no hurry I suppose. Thanks every for the help and suggestions.

[myk]

I would've thought you were looking for a quicker ratio box, since you're going with aftermarket suspension parts?

[2Luke2]

I would've thought you were looking for a quicker ratio box, since you're going with aftermarket suspension parts?

True, but what we don't want is a car the wife can't drive without hiring someone to park it for her. She's not weak by any means, but she also isn't a body builder lol. Since this car is a daily driver I felt the middle ground was a good choice.

The suspension upgrades were not for any racing application,  but just for the car to handle a bit better.

[1974dodgecharger]

Its still hard to steer to park her 20:1 or not.....it takes me 3 turns to one side .