Sticking with cast heads for build.

[Canadian1968]

I won't be ready for engine work for another year. Probably a good idea! As I can't decided what I want to do . I have an old thread on here where you guys helped me plan out a nice combo for a reliable 500hp motor. I am now thinking that I may want to stick with stock heads to keep some of the originality of the car ( it is a numbers matching r/t) .

If I choose the stock heads what would be a decent combo to go with. Looking for 475 hp if possible. I think the biggest pick would be which cam to go with that will work with cast heads

[BSB67]

Call Dwayne Porter.  I think that he just speced a hydraulic cam for a factory head, exhaust manifold car that made 450 or 475 on the pump.  It did have a six pack IIRC.

[Canadian1968]

I am going to put headers on the car , I already have them 1 3/4"

[Canadian1968]

I guess you probably want some more info.

Here is what I can give you .

The engine would be rebuilt to freshin' up all the seals and have everything balanced.

Holley street dominator intake
Holley 750 Dual Feed Vac Sec.
Stock heads.
Stock Rods.
1 3/4 Headers with 2.5 X pipe.
Stock 8 3/4 sure grip with 3.23 Gears

what i need help with

Cam
Valve train upgrades?
Piston  ( would like to stay at 10:1 )
and what Stall to go with

I can't tell you tire size yet as that would be a total guess at this point.

[ACUDANUT]

I would ask monitor "firefighter". He is one of our engine guru's.

[cudaken]

 I second Fire Fighter! With some work the 906's heads will flow well for a street engine. 440's where making 500 HP long before they came out with the Eddy heads.

Cuda Ken

[femtnmax]

Call Dwayne Porter. 

Have him port your iron heads.  He has an excellent rep.   and let me see them afterwords.

[BSB67]

440's where making 500 HP long before the came out with the Eddy heads.

People do seem to forget this

[Canadian1968]

440's where making 500 HP long before the came out with the Eddy heads.

People do seem to forget this

Exactly, There are hundreds of builds on this board, but 90% are using after market heads I am stil searching threw them to try and find a few that use some stock heads. !!

I would like to hear opinions , which would provide a better bang for your buck.  Have the heads ported, keeping stock valve size, or having bigger valves ( 2.14 - 1.88) installed.

[firefighter3931]

Sure, you can make 500hp with ported factory iron but you will spend a fair amount of money rebuilding/porting. In most cases it's not cost effective because the rebuild costs can exceed the cost of a brand new aluminum casting. 

The aluminum heads are 50 lbs lighter, have a nice closed chamber for tight quench and won't crack like an iron head can after it's been ported. The cost of rebuilding/porting factory castings has basicly made them obsolete. 

If you're looking for a true 500hp build, the aluminum head is going to be your easiest and most reliable path to that goal. 



Ron

[Canadian1968]

The only reason I have been rethinking the combo, is I don't think I really need 500HP.  Had the chance to ride in a few mid 13s cars last summer, and decided that is plenty fast for me.

That beening said, my goal isn't so much, 500HP I am looking at 13 sec flat.  Now if I am still gonna need 500HP to hit that goal I guess I am back at square one.

My Boss at work has a 440 in his 67 GTX . He lowered compression to 9:1 becuase he wanted to run 89 oct, stock heads,  has a set of headers and eddy intake.  3.55 gears  and I think 2500 stall.  I watched him run 14.2 last year, with horrible launch. He told me he had it dynoed wiht 290HP  to the rear wheels.

I know there are a lot of other factors, in reaching 13s.  But if I want to stick wiht a 3.23 gear, what would be a healthy motor that would be able to get me there.

[BSB67]

Sure, you can make 500hp with ported factory iron but you will spend a fair amount of money rebuilding/porting. In most cases it's not cost effective because the rebuild costs can exceed the cost of a brand new aluminum casting.  

The aluminum heads are 50 lbs lighter, have a nice closed chamber for tight quench and won't crack like an iron head can after it's been ported. The cost of rebuilding/porting factory castings has basicly made them obsolete.  

If you're looking for a true 500hp build, the aluminum head is going to be your easiest and most reliable path to that goal.  

This too is very true.

In my opinion, if a guy wants an iron head, the 915 is the only practical choice.  If you have a low performance, low compression 440, or any 383, the 915s can bring it to life.  But you will probably have $1000 to $1200 to make them good, and that is without porting.  Add hardened seats, machining for seals and spring cups and porting will probably take you to $2,000.  At this point, you now have a cast iron head that will probably match a OOTB Stealth, but short of OOTB Eddys and can get you to 500 hp.   I'm not a machinist or head porter, so if my $ numbers are incorrect, please straighten me out.

If you are building a 440, and want and iron head, the 915, IMO is still the better choice, but you will need to use a dished piston to get your desirable quench and a decent compression ratio.

I have a couple sets of 915s.  One set is what I call a test set.  They are a very good set of heads.  Bronze guides, conventional 2.08/1.74, back cut and competition valve job and 77 cc chambers.  No porting.  My Charger with a 440, weighing slightly over 4200 lb w/ me and the MP .455" cam went high 13.20s just short of 105 mph.

Took the heads off and put them on by buddy's car, Jim.   Jim's has a 1968 GTX 4 spd.  It had a low dollar previously re built 440 in it  (I think this story might ring home for many on this board).  It had headers, 750 Holley, original Torker aluminum intake.  Car ran 14.20s @ 99 mph after three Friday evenings at Edgewater's test and tune.  We took off his heads, replaced them with mine, used shim gaskets, installed my factory cast iron spreadbore intake and Holley spreadbore carb.  First night out it ran 13.50s @ 103 and some change.

[ACUDANUT]

Getting head is costly. 

[heyoldguy]

A clean set of good cores (452, 346, 915, 906, 902, 213) and $1550 will get you new guides, valves and porting to 285 cfm. Milling, hard seats, retainers, locks, springs, seals & blah, blah, blah is an additional cost. Any of the above mentioned heads can go to those flows. The highest potential stock iron head is the 906 which can go 330+ cfm. The heads to avoid for high flows would be the 1968 250, 1964-67 516 and non-maxwedge heads 1963 and earlier.

[BSB67]

Milling, hard seats, retainers, locks, springs, seals & blah, blah, blah is an additional cost. Any of the above mentioned heads can go to those flows.

Thanks.  Yes my $ number estimate included those things.

And, I went back and looked at my collection of head flow data, and my ported iron heads do outflow OOTB Eddy RPMs, Eddy E-Streets, Stealths to 0.500" lift, and they equal or out flow Stage I porting on E-Streets and Stealths to 0.500".  Of course I recognize that not everyone's porting work is the same.

[JB400]

Sure, you can make 500hp with ported factory iron but you will spend a fair amount of money rebuilding/porting. In most cases it's not cost effective because the rebuild costs can exceed the cost of a brand new aluminum casting.  

The aluminum heads are 50 lbs lighter, have a nice closed chamber for tight quench and won't crack like an iron head can after it's been ported. The cost of rebuilding/porting factory castings has basicly made them obsolete.  

If you're looking for a true 500hp build, the aluminum head is going to be your easiest and most reliable path to that goal.  



Ron

But, do the aluminum heads flow just as well as a ported cast iron head, right out of the box?  I doubt it.  That's what makes them out of range for quite a few of us.  But, if I had a head that did need replaced, then one should consider upgrading to the aluminum version.  

Doing your own porting drops the costs down considerably if you have the equipment and the patience.

Personally, I'm considering the Stage V cast iron heads.  Anything wrong with those?

[heyoldguy]

Sure, you can make 500hp with ported factory iron but you will spend a fair amount of money rebuilding/porting. In most cases it's not cost effective because the rebuild costs can exceed the cost of a brand new aluminum casting.  

The aluminum heads are 50 lbs lighter, have a nice closed chamber for tight quench and won't crack like an iron head can after it's been ported. The cost of rebuilding/porting factory castings has basicly made them obsolete.  

If you're looking for a true 500hp build, the aluminum head is going to be your easiest and most reliable path to that goal.  



Ron

But, do the aluminum heads flow just as well as a ported cast iron head, right out of the box?  I doubt it.  That's what makes them out of range for quite a few of us.  But, if I had a head that did need replaced, then one should consider upgrading to the aluminum version.  

Doing your own porting drops the costs down considerably if you have the equipment and the patience.

Personally, I'm considering the Stage V cast iron heads.  Anything wrong with those?

Generally the OOTB aluminum head will outflow a ported factory iron head. Some people who know what they are doing can get the ported iron head better than the OOTB aluminum. Most people who port the iron heads are just learning and trying to save a buck. Those like that and those who get the templates and port the heads will generally not equal an aluminum head.

Stage V article from 2001.    http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/howto/mopp_0106_how_to_install_ported_stage_v_heads/#13918884767811&1,tss

[c00nhunterjoe]

Another important item that 90% of people i talk to overlook is what lift the headflow is measured at. Sure, those advertised brand "abc" heads may flow 350 cfm but its usually ay .700 or .800 lift. The average true street driven car runs a .550 lift cam max. .600 pushing your limits for a reliable valvetrain. Dont be fooled by the advertised flow numbers. While they are important, you need to see what the flows are at your particular usable rpm range.

[Canadian1968]

Well I get the idea, if I want to keep the iron heads, i am gonna pay some $$$ to get them to flow enough to hit 500HP.  Easily more than a set of Stealth heads. 

Now back to my question that I asked,  what kind of HP/TQ should I aim for if I want to hit 13s flat. Keeping 3.23 gears.   

[cudaken]

Well I get the idea, if I want to keep the iron heads, i am gonna pay some $$$ to get them to flow enough to hit 500HP.  Easily more than a set of Stealth heads. 

Now back to my question that I asked,  what kind of HP/TQ should I aim for if I want to hit 13s flat. Keeping 3.23 gears.   

The 3:23's are going to hurt you, unless your Charger weights 2600 pounds. 

13.00 flat, I am thinking stroker and or a BIG BOTTLE! Great flowing heads and great cam normally pushes HP to higher RPM's. When I was racing I want my max HP about 50 to 100 feet before I crossed the finish line.

Cuda Ken 

[BSB67]

Well I get the idea, if I want to keep the iron heads, i am gonna pay some $$$ to get them to flow enough to hit 500HP.  Easily more than a set of Stealth heads.  

Now back to my question that I asked,  what kind of HP/TQ should I aim for if I want to hit 13s flat. Keeping 3.23 gears.  

400 hp @ 3900 lbs with the DA <2000.  Stock converter, 3.23 gear, 2.0 60 ft time (achievable w/o any suspension mods), P 225 70 14 BFG radials.   The car will trap around 106 or 107.  Add headers and it will go faster.

You can do it with a 0.48" lift cam.

[Challenger340]

Looks... HEADS are great !
But IMO,
for 475 HP.... with even the most mundane of factory Iron Heads... which ALL are capable of supporting even with stock 2.08/1.74 valves and portwork ?
is a completely moot point...
unless it is know WHAT Manifolds BOTH Intake & Exhaust you are planning here ?
Apologies... maybe I missed it somewhere ?

If low 13's is all you want... most people can RUN faster than that in sneakers, and no-where even near 475hp is required, little-lown mega dollar iron heads ?

[Challenger340]

Well I get the idea, if I want to keep the iron heads, i am gonna pay some $$$ to get them to flow enough to hit 500HP.  Easily more than a set of Stealth heads.  

Now back to my question that I asked,  what kind of HP/TQ should I aim for if I want to hit 13s flat. Keeping 3.23 gears.  

FORGET the Head Flow...
until,
you figure out WHAT MANIFOLDS you want to use to utilize that FLOW... or allow the exhaust to get out ?
For ANY E.T. or Gearing.

[heyoldguy]

I think it's interesting that stock Street Hemi's in 3900# B-Bodies, rated at 425 HP and 490 TQ would run the 1/4 mile with 3.23 and street tires around 13.7 and 103-104 mph.

[Cooter]

$1500.00 in a set of iron heads thatmlimit you to 10.0:1 compression. Therefore, limiting power.
not to mention the cost of the heads. (Usually, around $100-150.00 a set)....

Out of the box aluminum heads for $1500.00 that OUT FLOW the iron heads, and allow 11.0:1 compression on same fuel...


Now, you know why.....