'69 440 alum. intake recommendations

[BSB67]

Do the Holleys weigh more than the Carters?  They must right?

Carter AFB and Eddy AVS 6-7 lbs, Double pump Holley 11-12 lbs

[myk]

My question is this: what intake requires the "least" amount of modification to the throttle and kickdown linkages?  I hate my Performer but at least I didn't have to change a thing; I'd like to keep it that way, and I'm thinking the Holley SD is the one that will allow it...

[firefighter3931]

My question is this: what intake requires the "least" amount of modification to the throttle and kickdown linkages?  I hate my Performer but at least I didn't have to change a thing; I'd like to keep it that way, and I'm thinking the Holley SD is the one that will allow it...

The SD & CH4B will both work with stock throttle/kickdown linkages. 

The CH4B is definitely more user friendly than the RPM and doesn't give much up to the RPM in terms of power. 


Ron

[myk]

My question is this: what intake requires the "least" amount of modification to the throttle and kickdown linkages?  I hate my Performer but at least I didn't have to change a thing; I'd like to keep it that way, and I'm thinking the Holley SD is the one that will allow it...

The SD & CH4B will both work with stock throttle/kickdown linkages. 

The CH4B is definitely more user friendly than the RPM and doesn't give much up to the RPM in terms of power. 


Ron

Ok, am I correct in my understanding that even though the SD is a single plane, I won't lose much if any torque/power in lower RPM operation?

[Ghoste]

You will lose some.  I would have to dig up the notes but my 60 foot times went up with the sd.

[firefighter3931]

My question is this: what intake requires the "least" amount of modification to the throttle and kickdown linkages?  I hate my Performer but at least I didn't have to change a thing; I'd like to keep it that way, and I'm thinking the Holley SD is the one that will allow it...

The SD & CH4B will both work with stock throttle/kickdown linkages. 

The CH4B is definitely more user friendly than the RPM and doesn't give much up to the RPM in terms of power. 


Ron

Ok, am I correct in my understanding that even though the SD is a single plane, I won't lose much if any torque/power in lower RPM operation?

It's hard to say because you would be going from a pretty crappy (Performer) manifold to one that is much better. The general effect of going with a single plane vs a dual plane is that you will move the powerband up, somewhat. 

The Street Dominator is unique in that it is a low rise single plane and it does make excellent torque down low. It really shines up high too....better than the RPM.   

It really depends on the combo. If you have a low compression build with unported heads and a stock/mild cam, the engine will be all done by 5500 rpm max. 


Ron

[Dino]

I contemplated losing the Edelbrock performer the po bolted on and putting the stock '71 manifold back on, the one that ends in 501.  With my 2.96 gears and a car that rarely hits 3500 rpm it'll probably be a waste of time though.

[JB400]

How well does the Offenhauser 360 degree intake stack up against the others, or are they overlooked for a reason?

[firefighter3931]

Some good reading from Mopar Muscle comparing 440 std port intake manifolds complete with dyno numbers. 

Keep in mind this isn't your typical street type 440 build....but the article does illustrate the full potential of the various intake manifolds tested. 

http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/techarticles/engine/mopp_0207_intake_manifold_engine_and_rpm_range_test/



Ron

[firefighter3931]

I contemplated losing the Edelbrock performer the po bolted on and putting the stock '71 manifold back on, the one that ends in 501.  With my 2.96 gears and a car that rarely hits 3500 rpm it'll probably be a waste of time though.

Dirk, for what you're doing the "Performer" is fine. The smaller than stock runners will actually make the engine more responsive. The down side to the Performer is that it's all done at 5000.

Since your car is just a cruiser i'd leave it be for now. 


Ron

[Dino]

I contemplated losing the Edelbrock performer the po bolted on and putting the stock '71 manifold back on, the one that ends in 501.  With my 2.96 gears and a car that rarely hits 3500 rpm it'll probably be a waste of time though.

Dirk, for what you're doing the "Performer" is fine. The smaller than stock runners will actually make the engine more responsive. The down side to the Performer is that it's all done at 5000.

Since your car is just a cruiser i'd leave it be for now. 


Ron

You just saved me more work!      

Btw, I bought those ignition wire retainers you advised and they work great!  The whole Firecore system looks amazing!  I removed the wiring to finish the rest of the engine bay but I hope to have the car back on its wheels by summer.  Spring may be too busy for me to even look at the car.  With a whole new ignition system and electrical charging, new fuel lines and vapor separator, new shocks and some more goodies this is going to feel like a different car!  I should probably put some brakes on the car as well...

[BSB67]

I have never run the Performer on the 440.  I do have one sitting here for a future project.  Although the runners look smaller looking down on the intake, the runners are taller by about a 1/4" and the intake itself is a 1/2" taller than the factory unit.  The runners look have the same cross sectional area as the factory iron, and the runners are a lot better contoured as well.  I will probably check total volume before I use it but I bet it is similar to the factory unit.  With that said, it still could be a turd.  Testing tell.

I like to describe the SD a little different than most: it is good down low for a single plane manifold.  It is really not that good down low, especially on a lower hp motor.  I was surprised how far off the SD was below 4000 rpm verses the D2 and Six pack intakes on my 500 in. motor.   Don't get me wrong, it is really a good intake, is very versatile, and has a pretty big sweet spot, but it would not be my first or second choice on a stockish to mild 440.

[myk]

I know I lost power going from the stock intake to the Performer.  With the stock, cast-iron intake under medium throttle the car would chirp the tires going into second.  As soon as I switched to the Performer the chirping vanished and the car just felt...."less alive."  During my twilight bonzai runs I like to wind out the car; I don't like the idea that I've compromised the car over the years...

[Ghoste]

I always felt like I lost when I went to a Performer too.  I couldn't get the thing off fast enough.

[firefighter3931]

I contemplated losing the Edelbrock performer the po bolted on and putting the stock '71 manifold back on, the one that ends in 501.  With my 2.96 gears and a car that rarely hits 3500 rpm it'll probably be a waste of time though.

Dirk, for what you're doing the "Performer" is fine. The smaller than stock runners will actually make the engine more responsive. The down side to the Performer is that it's all done at 5000.

Since your car is just a cruiser i'd leave it be for now. 


Ron

You just saved me more work!      

Btw, I bought those ignition wire retainers you advised and they work great!  The whole Firecore system looks amazing!  I removed the wiring to finish the rest of the engine bay but I hope to have the car back on its wheels by summer.  Spring may be too busy for me to even look at the car.  With a whole new ignition system and electrical charging, new fuel lines and vapor separator, new shocks and some more goodies this is going to feel like a different car!  I should probably put some brakes on the car as well...

I'm all about saving time and money on un necessary changes. That's not to say that the Performer will be right for your next build. 

Glad to hear the wire seperators and ignition system is to your liking. You'll be happy because the components work just as ood as they look ! 


Ron

[BSB67]

I know I lost power going from the stock intake to the Performer.  With the stock, cast-iron intake under medium throttle the car would chirp the tires going into second.  As soon as I switched to the Performer the chirping vanished and the car just felt...."less alive."  During my twilight bonzai runs I like to wind out the car; I don't like the idea that I've compromised the car over the years...

Like I said earlier, maybe the manifold is simply a dud.

But one thing I did learn early on when I started to do all of my testing and tuning at the track is that the buttmeter, and what the car's tires do from a roll and on shift recovery often do not reflect accurately if there is an overall increase in power or not.  In fact, my experience is that it is often the opposite of what you might think.  This comes from a lot of testing, tuning, bolt on mods, and probably 1000 passes at the track.  In the case that you describe,  assuming all of the road/tire/and weather conditions are the same, the factory manifold makes a bit more power at shift recovery, probably at about 3000 to 3200 rpm.  I offer a couple of items for you to think about.  The next time you see published dyno data on before and after mods, usually the lower hp motor makes more power at 3000 rpm than the higher hp motor.  Second, my car, 11.70 @ 120 mph does not chirp the tires on shift recovery (P225 70 14s).  It did not do it when it use to run 12s, nor did it do it when it ran 13s.  The only time my 67 word chirp the tires on shift recovery was when it ran 14s, and had the factory cast iron intake on it.  In fact, it would spin the tires so violently from a roll, it was hard to keep straight on the street.  It would probably still run 14s if that was the criteria that I was using.

[Cooter]

Built the Dart trans. Built with my own mods and 'shift kit'.
When had a 'tight' Converter, would 'chirp' rear tires into 2nd.....
Installed the high stall converter which is 'loose', chirp disappeared.

Did it slow the car down? No. Chirping the tires is like b urnouts, not a good way to measure your cars output.

[Brass]

My question is this: what intake requires the "least" amount of modification to the throttle and kickdown linkages?  I hate my Performer but at least I didn't have to change a thing; I'd like to keep it that way, and I'm thinking the Holley SD is the one that will allow it...

The SD & CH4B will both work with stock throttle/kickdown linkages. 

The CH4B is definitely more user friendly than the RPM and doesn't give much up to the RPM in terms of power. 


Ron

I have the CH4B and I like it.  They can probably be found for sale used online.  They work well with stock linkages which is why I went with one instead of the Performer RPM.  But with a carb-spacer, I still needed a drop-base air cleaner.

[fy469rtse]

I look at the performer as a good stock weight heat saving copy of orginal,
user friendly, a lot more forgiving on install regarding vacuum leaks versus steel
rpm performer slightly better,
the holley is a single plane , only use this if you stepping up from stock, cam heads , comp ratio etc, on a stock engine you will loose a lot of foot pound down low, 

[myk]

What about the Weiand Action +?  That's a dual plane?

I see CH4B's for sale often enough, but...I just don't trust used parts of that value, especially after my center-console debacle. 

I GUESS I could be considered to go with a Performer RPM, but...does anyone know the exact 'mods to my stock shift and throttle linkages that I would have to do?  I already have a nice drop-base air cleaner in place...

[BSB67]

What about the Weiand Action +?  That's a dual plane?

I see CH4B's for sale often enough, but...I just don't trust used parts of that value, especially after my center-console debacle. 

I GUESS I could be considered to go with a Performer RPM, but...does anyone know the exact 'mods to my stock shift and throttle linkages that I would have to do?  I already have a nice drop-base air cleaner in place...

I think that this is all you need:

http://arengineering.com/products/440-with-kickdown-pivot/

[myk]

Thanks for the 'info/link.  What about the throttle linkage kit they mention?

[BSB67]

Thanks for the 'info/link.  What about the throttle linkage kit they mention?

Throttle return?

http://arengineering.com/products/big-block-throttle-return-bracket-dual-spring/

[myk]

Alright then, I'll defiitely give the RPM more consideration...

[Ghoste]

All in all, the RPM is a pretty remarkable manifold.