Engine Rebuilding Costs ?

[justcruisin]

Personally I enjoy putting my engines together, I don't claim to be an expert, far from it infact. I think doing your own assembly is a great thing and the satisfaction is all part of the reason why we wrench on these old beasts. At times I have walked away from the machine shop leaving my stuff there and not being to sure if the machinist and I are on the same wave length. Good on ya Bob for putting this thread up and initiating some discusion on the subject. I think most of us would feel more confident with dealing with a shop and in our own assembly with a little more knowledge regardless if you do the assembly or the shop does it.

[1974dodgecharger]

some people dont have the 'knack' to build a engine they want thats why crate engines are so tempting for some VS feeling getting ripped off from a machinist who builds the engine etc.

are you really trying to say that nobody should ever build their own engines? That's what it comes off as to me.

You've put together a great list that should be titled "What you need to know, or ask your machinist about". Personally I wouldn't be interested in racing if I wasn't doing any work myself, buying everything and going fast doesn't interest me. Heck I'd attempt the machining myself if I had the tools.

Conversations should go more like this:
I would like to have the vertical clearance set on this application
What would you like it to be?
I am not 100% sure and was hoping you could help me with it I am thinking .0024, I have X bearings and plan on making around 650hp,using 10w-30 synthetic and running at 6000rpm + whatever applicable information.

If I heard WHY ARE YOU SO STUPID BUY A CRATE ENGINE I wouldn't get anything done at that shop.
If I heard well those are probably the wrong bearings for this application, or I'd recommend X they would probably have a customer for life.

IMO, you need to SLOW DOWN and actually READ what I said before flying off the handle ?

I never said anything of the sort !...
I think people SHOULD INDEED Assemble their own Engines ! That is part of the fun & gratification of accomplishment for being involved in Cars !

What I said was...
people who are going to do so... when it comes to Strokers & Performance stuff beyond entry levels... need to start Educating and arming themselves... so they can ask the right questions...
far beyond... being scared or intimidated
and just running into some Machine Shop with little to NO real experience away from generic sb Chevs, for the cursory "it's all good" before THEY take it home to screw it together themselves ?
Too often.... it's the DUMB asking the DUMBER these days ! ... and too many poor results.

On a side note... the "Conversation" you exampled above.... is exactly what I am talking about !

Guys bring their stuff in here... and want a Machine Package done that are going to Assembled themselves.
I think that's GREAT !
Because I know that with some simple instructions and assistance if they require it... I can make them, and their Build  LOOK GREAT !
So,
I then always ask applications, and make sure we have a conversation about Oils, RPM, Power output, intended Street/Strip etc., etc., wherein at the end... usually they WANT my recommended Clearances etc.
It also allows me to assess their knowledge level... and politely fill in any blanks I think they might not understand ?

When they pick it up....
they get back ALL PARTS checked/recorded, with for example here... each Bearing numbered for it's Hole, with the recommended Torque Values / Lube used / Clearances @ Torque and Temp.

Like this on each Bearing Box ;
.0028" @ 63 Ft/Lbs Vertical, 3X W/ARP Moly O.T.U.H., 70* F.
Which Translates that there is .0028" Vertical Clearance at 63 Ft/lbs on that Bearing...in that Bore.... Torqued "3X" or 3 times as per ARP specs; being up to Torque, back 1/8 turn, up to Torque a 2nd time and back 1/8, then up to Torque a 3rd and final(overcome friction to Inertia as per ARP), and of course the O.T.U.H. that the ARP Moly is used On Threads and Under Heads, all accomplished at 70* F.
THIS IS DONE FOR REPEATABILITY
So,
that when the Guy goes home to Assemble it himself.... he KNOWS what he has... he knows I have done... and he can REPEAT and get the Clearances he has PAID for, and Assemble it with Confidence !
Main Brgs, Rod Brgs, Pin Bores, Rod small ends, Rod Big ends, Crankshaft, Pistons #'d for Block Cylinders, all Housing Bores, etc., etc., are all Measured/Recorded and given back for the Assembler/Builder with a specification Sheet with Torques values for them to follow.
I make DAMN SURE they are not going to have any problems !

Nobody called anybody stupid here... and I certainly did NOT either !
All I said was "Customers" need to start educating themselves .... if they wish to Assemble their own stuff these days..... increase THEIR own awareness and start having conversations with their Machinists past "Good to Go" when they pick it up ?

"Trust" only with a verbal... with nothing "written" or "recorded" when you pick your Machining up ? .... is IMO... one hell of a stupid way for a DIY Performance or Stroker Investment undertaking.

LOTS of good Shops in ALL geographical locations that everyone can access... tell them you want a written report of CLEARANCES and how they were accomplished when Machined... so you can REPEAT it when you take it home for assembly.
The GOOD ones will readily comply because they have done it PROPERLY and will have that information...

If you get BLANK STARES with another "Good to Go".... you are at the wrong place....WALK AWAY !    

[Cooter]

My son who's in the military, just bought a $550.00 PIECE OF SHEOT 2000 Dodge pick up. Full size 2WD.
Found out the trans had only 2nd and OD. Got online and found a video on rebuilding the trans, along with books.

The arguement about not having the knack/ability/resources/time/etc. Is invalid. Not Today. With all the info out there, it is IMPOSSIBLE not to find SOMETHING on rebuilding engines...hell, call up ANY cam company and if they wanna sell you a cam, they will point you in the right direction.

[ws23rt]

I appreciate someones wanting to be involved in building their own engine but if all they have is the desire than a step back is is order. 

Even assembling an expertly machined package is something that needs to be done with proper knowledge and care. It can be done by a novice with step by step care. And is a fun part of being involved.

Too many want that involvement and are not up to speed.  Those are better left to the engine swap and move on to driving the beast.

I'm all for understanding the whole process and being involved with the engine package but why step in the middle of a build just to turn the last wrench.

Not much saved and a potential headache for all.

[justcruisin]

Question - Prior to making decisions on my rebuild for my Charger I took the block into the shop for them to check over, I asked them to bolt up a torque plate and check for out of round. The bores were in good visual shape and I measured them myself beforehand, they measured good with no out of round or tapper as the engine had been bored prior without a torque plate and had only done minimal miles. The shop told me I needed to re bore as there was .002" out of round with the plate on. I got the block back to think about it. I torqued up a new edelbrock head and measured from underneath. I only found the bore to be .00075" out. Maybe it was my measuring but as this was a street build I opted for the shop to give it a light hone which gave me .004" on 4032 pistons. You can hear the pistons, even when hot but after 1000 miles I did a compression and leakdown, all even at 178-180psi and between 7 and 8% leakdown. I'm sure a pro could do better but I am happy with it all things considered.
So - my question is, how important is torque plate bore/hone and how can you simulated the same load especially with iron vs aluminium, or is the swelling of the bolt area reason enough on its own.

[ACUDANUT]

What is a torque plate bore/hone. I've been around the block a time or two, but have no idea of what your talking about.

[cdr]

What is a torque plate bore/hone. I've been around the block a time or two, but have no idea of what your talking about.

this might help

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CDcQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cylinderheadsupply.com%2Fmp-2.html&ei=qITuUtXaOsuNqQHfzoHYDw&usg=AFQjCNGvBzLWc6SzYDJhh_yQHAn7RmfOIQ&bvm=bv.60444564,d.aWM&cad=rja

[rednuck]

IMO, you need to SLOW DOWN and actually READ what I said before flying off the handle ?

I never said anything of the sort !...
I think people SHOULD INDEED Assemble their own Engines ! That is part of the fun & gratification of accomplishment for being involved in Cars !

I DID slow down and read it many times, and your posts to me keep coming across as bitterness towards DIYers with AWESOME advice on what you need to be discussing with your machine shop mixed in. It's great to know they just read that way and it's not how you really feel. Although you probably angered my machine shop people in the future, now that I am going to expect that much more from them.

Now I ask you, what other questions not discussed do people commonly come unprepared to answer? The best thing for both sides of this would be that nobody has a blank stare on their face when the information is exchanged. And it's also great that a customer knows when to run away from a shop when certain answers come out.

[Challenger340]

IMO, you need to SLOW DOWN and actually READ what I said before flying off the handle ?

I never said anything of the sort !...
I think people SHOULD INDEED Assemble their own Engines ! That is part of the fun & gratification of accomplishment for being involved in Cars !

I DID slow down and read it many times, and your posts to me keep coming across as bitterness towards DIYers with AWESOME advice on what you need to be discussing with your machine shop mixed in. It's great to know they just read that way and it's not how you really feel. Although you probably angered my machine shop people in the future, now that I am going to expect that much more from them.

Now I ask you, what other questions not discussed do people commonly come unprepared to answer? The best thing for both sides of this would be that nobody has a blank stare on their face when the information is exchanged. And it's also great that a customer knows when to run away from a shop when certain answers come out.

I probably just came off and read as "frustrated"... because I am.
I am seeing so many frigged up DIY projects coming in the door for repairs(NOT originally done here)... that should NOT be.. and I don't think would be.... if guys would just slow down... get the information... and ask questions where-ever they go ?

Not only is it expensive for the guys... it's killing a hobby based in DIY Guys !

I am just trying to get more information out there... that's it... that's all.
IMO,
people need to understand that the cheaper Stroker Kits require the most scrutiny... inversely proportional to original cost sometimes.
But it seems IMO... those who opt for the cheaper Kits based in Price... you guessed it... also seek out the cheapest when getting it checked over ?

On to better things.
I think another often overlooked area that should be discussed with your Machinist(I usually ask), is about break-in procedures as it relates to Final Cylinder Finishes ?
The "BEST" for easy ring seating with minimal wear to maintain Ring End-gaps, is not always "best" for every application ?

I like to go to a 400 Grit Plateau w/Brushes for Final on 1/16,1/16,3/16 Moly Ring-Packs, a "mirror" finish.
But,
If the Guy is not taking the Engine anywhere for Dyno'ing/Break-in, a controlled environment, or, he isn't really on the ball on fire-up.... the mirror finishes can have Pitfalls for ring-seal concerning fuel wash.... too late load applied, etc., etc.
Just saying...
sometimes better to skip the plateau Brushes... and only 4 swipes with the 400 stones over the 280's, leave it a little rougher... more forgiving for a Guy at home in his garage in case anything aint quite right ? More heat... you lose some gap/seal... but maybe safer/cheaper in the end ?

Another one I like to ask....
What Trans setup ? Clutch ?
Relates to "setting" Crank End-thrust for the Customer here before he takes it home ? Which I like to do here for the application.. or any Thrust Bearing oiling mods ?
Ask your Guy.... if they are "setting" your Crank End-Thrust for you ?
If the Guys just running a 11" Convertor.. yada..yada.. Street... usually NOT a Big deal... just make sure they know HOW to check/Set it themselves if they wish to do it ?
But,
you'd be surprised how many of those same Guys go stick a 4,000 lb pressure plate on their 4 spd even on a street deal nothing engine ?
And, No idea how much is right for the application ?
Nice to know BEFOREHAND, and if that's the case... I suggest they let me do it here for themt, and I'll also supply some oil pressure feed to the Thrust Bearing for insurance.

** With BB Mopars.... really important to get your Guy to check the Rear Main Seal Groove in the Block checked concentric with the Mains !
There are probably 50 really pretty "aftermarket" Rear Main Seal Retainer Caps out there, all trying to address, and supposedly CURE, rear main Leaks on BB Mopars ?
Why ?
Wuffor ?
THAT ain't the PROBLEM !! and no pretty CNC retainer will cure it !!
The PROBLEM....
is the groove in the Block that holds the upper Seal Halve is usually offset to one side, or the other side, from the Crank Centerline... so if you can't "see" it visually... get your guy to check and advise which way to drag the retainer into contact upon assembly to prevent leaks, and which side to offset the seal half from the parting line onto.

[Challenger340]

Question - Prior to making decisions on my rebuild for my Charger I took the block into the shop for them to check over, I asked them to bolt up a torque plate and check for out of round. The bores were in good visual shape and I measured them myself beforehand, they measured good with no out of round or tapper as the engine had been bored prior without a torque plate and had only done minimal miles. The shop told me I needed to re bore as there was .002" out of round with the plate on. I got the block back to think about it. I torqued up a new edelbrock head and measured from underneath. I only found the bore to be .00075" out. Maybe it was my measuring but as this was a street build I opted for the shop to give it a light hone which gave me .004" on 4032 pistons. You can hear the pistons, even when hot but after 1000 miles I did a compression and leakdown, all even at 178-180psi and between 7 and 8% leakdown. I'm sure a pro could do better but I am happy with it all things considered.
So - my question is, how important is torque plate bore/hone and how can you simulated the same load especially with iron vs aluminium, or is the swelling of the bolt area reason enough on its own.

A guy could drive himself nuts worrying about later ?... and what iff'ing things to death ? Whats done is done Piston rattle or not.
Nonetheless,
it sounds like you did just fine ... 7-8% is pretty darn good if you ask me ?

The Torque Plate is IMO, the best method to simulating the stress distortion on the Cylinders caused by the Head Fasteners, to the best end result during Honing of Straight & Round Cylinders.
and yes... I see .002" or more distortion regularily without it, if a T/Plate is applied later.
Most of the distortion is generally around the Bolts.... but it can also cause Wall bending lower as well, adding to piston skirt clrc.

As far as your question, I think the bolt swelling itself is the main goal as the top 1 inch of the Cylinder is where the most sealing pressure occurs ?
I consider a T/Plate very important to the above.
I have not checked in awhile... but last time I did, I was pleasantly surprised to find out my Cast T/Plate caused the same distortion as an aluminum head, when measured from underneath as you did.

[rednuck]

I am just trying to get more information out there... that's it... that's all.
IMO,
people need to understand that the cheaper Stroker Kits require the most scrutiny... inversely proportional to original cost sometimes.
But it seems IMO... those who opt for the cheaper Kits based in Price... you guessed it... also seek out the cheapest when getting it checked over ?

I think some convincing that the kits aren't that great needs to be thrown around as well, since you are giving so much great information.

I will use mancini racings "493" kit, a fairly common build. Eagle crank, Rods, diamond pistons, Speed pro rings, clevite bearings. Not the top of the line, not horrible for a slightly hotter then street build. They don't claim to do ANY fitting so it should be checked, I used prices from a machine shop I found online in Edmonton,AB

	Unbalanced	Balanced
Price	1795	2095
Piston Measuring and recording	50	50
Pin fitting in Piston	50	50
Con Rod small end $20each	160	160
Con Rod big end @ $12	96	96
Crank Prep	135	135
Balance	400	?0?
Total	2686	2586

I probably missed some things but, now you saved $100 in the end! and have the same rotating assembly. Now if any work was done, or to be safe the balance should be checked anyway's so you are LOSING money. Some of those costs could be cheaper, some more expensive depending on what is wrong in either assembly. You could really save more money by shopping better for individual parts then buying a stroker kit. Ex. 4.15 cranks with 0.010 undersized mains are $150 cheaper then normal, on a light application 0.010 probably won't make a difference, They cut 440 forged cranks down .125 to fit in a 400. You would of saved $50 and come out with something you can have confidence in.

[Challenger340]

Gotta wonder about Edmonchuk ?
Fully 60% of my Business, gets shipped all the way out here from Edmonton guys ! Track Champ is one of my guys as well.

By the hour, which is the fairest way....
Pin-Fitting in Piston is $50 or about a 1/2 hr.
Pin-Fitting in Rod small ends is only another $20., because the Machine/Gauge is already setup from doing the Pistons, and only takes another 10 minutes ?
Measure Pistons and Record, 1/2 hr
Resize Big Ends complete, includes "setting" Bearing Clrc., and Record. (Must bring Crank & Bearings... I have to be able to Mic the Crank to know sizes to "set" to) 1.5 Hrs or $135.
Crank Grinding is $270. However it is guaranteed 2 "ten-thousandths" of 1 inch Straight & Round... or I will BUY you a NEW CRANK !
Balancing strictly by the Hour. If it's good and doesn't need that much = it's cheap. If it is a pain in the Ass = it costs. EAGLE ain't usually bad to Balance... it's just their Crank Grinding itself that sucks...IMO

$1,795. seems high for an EAGLE 493 Kit ?? When did you price ? our dollar has dropped, but still seems high ?
If you wish to pm me the Part Number, I'll tell you what W.D. is F.O.B. Delivered to Calgary is... as I am W.D. with Eagle in Tennessee.

[rednuck]

I just pulled it straight of Mancini Racings website for an example. I think its Eagles #21206 kit with different pistons, probably slightly overpriced. Your pricing just further shows that it's just not worth cheaping out and using a stroker kit out of the box, buy the individual parts and take it to your trusted machine shop. 

[RAC95054]

What is the going rate to just disassemble, clean, mag, install bronze valve guides, valve job (non-racing) and reassemble (checking springs) a set of stock (906) heads?   I was guessing something close to $400 based on what I've read here.

[femtnmax]

I just posted my 906 head rebuild cost on the CC forum.  I live at 5200 feet elevation and a heated intake manifold really helps for an all day any day good running engine.

Cost to rebuild a pair of Mopar 906 heads is as follows:
Labor
resurface 2 heads         $135
install & hone thinwall guides       64
install hard exhaust seats       80
4 angle valve job           135
clean  & mag check             30
     Labor total  $444
Parts
Ferrea F5054 intake valve (2.08 diam)           13.17 each = 105
Ferrea F5053 exhaust valve  (1.81 diam)   13.17 each = 105
Thinwall guides   3.00 each =      48
Exhaust seats      10.00 each =    80
Valve springs, CompCam 911-16    87
Spring retainers, 7*, Crower 87063-16   68      
Valve locks, 7*, Crane 99098-1      32
Valve stem seals, positive PFT       20
     Parts total  $545
           Total 906 head rebuild cost  $989

[ACUDANUT]

Getting a head job ain't cheap. 

[Challenger340]

I just posted my 906 head rebuild cost on the CC forum.  I live at 5200 feet elevation and a heated intake manifold really helps for an all day any day good running engine.

Cost to rebuild a pair of Mopar 906 heads is as follows:
Labor
resurface 2 heads         $135
install & hone thinwall guides       64
install hard exhaust seats       80
4 angle valve job           135
clean  & mag check             30
     Labor total  $444
Parts
Ferrea F5054 intake valve (2.08 diam)           13.17 each = 105
Ferrea F5053 exhaust valve  (1.81 diam)   13.17 each = 105
Thinwall guides   3.00 each =      48
Exhaust seats      10.00 each =    80
Valve springs, CompCam 911-16    87
Spring retainers, 7*, Crower 87063-16   68      
Valve locks, 7*, Crane 99098-1      32
Valve stem seals, positive PFT       20
     Parts total  $545
           Total 906 head rebuild cost  $989

That seems fairly cheap ?
Nonetheless, and as is the purpose of this thread originally, to clarify "Engine Rebuilding Costs".. it is important to distinguish between just WHAT is being done in Cost Comparisons... APPLES TO APPLES so to speak ?

But for example here on your "stock" Head Rebuild, on "Honed" Guides ?
I am sure the Shop told you "honed" guides ? but this can be misleading.

They INSTALLED 16 guides, and HONED the 16 guides for $64. ?
or,
did they just run the broach through at "final desired size", with a quick flex-HONE through during final wash, as is normal thinwall installation procedure ?
This method usually yields .002" to .0025" Valve to Guide clrc at best, but sufficient for a "Stock" rebuild and Angles.

as opposed to....
** REAL "honing" of a thinwall bronze liner... involves broaching down .002" from final... then using an actual lateral controlled Hone, under flowing MAN honing oil, and using a small bore gauge as you go... to then "fit" the Valve Stems HONED to about .001" clearance very straight & round, with an internal micro finish to hold lubrication. This type of job LASTS much longer with the tighter initial clearance, for literally many tens of thousands of miles, and provides sufficient concentricity to run high flow Valve Seat Angles conduscive to a performance build.
But Alas, this procedure usually takes 2-3 Hours to accomplish by itself ?  I don't believe you got THAT for the $64... little-lown the Broaching installation included ?
just sayin...
it is important to differentiate "Apples to Apples" when comparing prices ? One is a TRUE "Honed" Guide... the other... well.. the word "Hone" is used more for descriptive "benefit" without real result.... just prevents confusion.
IMO,
For $64 you got a std Broach Guideliner install... with a flex-Hone brush during final wash...Standard Thinwall Liner Install procedure, for stock rebuilds
NOT,
a HONE-FIT GUIDE, conduscive for High Flow Performance Valve Seat Angles.

[RAC95054]

Thanks, Challenger340.  I was pretty close, minus the valves/springs replacement and resurfacing.  So going all out in about a grand.  Does it then become worth paying a bit more for some aluminum heads, or will there still be the cost of a shop looking them over/assembling?

[69wannabe]

It would be better in my opinion to go ahead and do the eddy RPM heads and have a better flowing and alot lighter set of heads too!!

[BB14404SPD]

I just posted my 906 head rebuild cost on the CC forum.  I live at 5200 feet elevation and a heated intake manifold really helps for an all day any day good running engine.

Cost to rebuild a pair of Mopar 906 heads is as follows:
Labor
resurface 2 heads         $135
install & hone thinwall guides       64
install hard exhaust seats       80
4 angle valve job           135
clean  & mag check             30
     Labor total  $444
Parts
Ferrea F5054 intake valve (2.08 diam)           13.17 each = 105
Ferrea F5053 exhaust valve  (1.81 diam)   13.17 each = 105
Thinwall guides   3.00 each =      48
Exhaust seats      10.00 each =    80
Valve springs, CompCam 911-16    87
Spring retainers, 7*, Crower 87063-16   68      
Valve locks, 7*, Crane 99098-1      32
Valve stem seals, positive PFT       20
     Parts total  $545
           Total 906 head rebuild cost  $989

Sorry to bring tread up from the dead but what seals did you use? Valve stem seals, positive PFT, do you have a part number or source?

[fy469rtse]

I love reading Bobs threads, Ron on here another very informed builder ,
I have learnt a lot on here, still learning, and it's fun
My next engine is starting to form in my mind
I always advise friends to read , become informed , know what you want and understand at least by reading up on it,
Wish we had a machine engine shop close to Bob's worth,
I would love having been asked about what I want instead of telling them , and then them asking me why ?
I would add a couple of things to bob prep list,
Bob will add to this , anyone spun a main bearing , chewed out a bearing , cap walk , etc
I like to replace main caps with billit , add a girdle as well,
With the torque plates for final hone , I always instruct them to have my main caps installed and torqued , stress distortion from below ,
Shop always have my intake to add at mock up stage , these have always needed machining to fit , never assume because its a new part , that it will bolt straight on,
I always try to be informed before a build , usually research up on what I'm trying to achieve ,
I usually end up paying more for prep and parts than most of my friends, but all my engines are still going,
My current engine went about 3500 just in machining , worth every dollar, ticked off most on Bobs list and a couple more,
You can't take short cuts on the heart, I've learnt , it Will come back and bite you,
Sorry for the long post , but bob is on the money with this thread 
Great thread Bob,

[fy469rtse]

I'm consulting Bob on my next engine,
From the planning stage, he can charge me for the advice
Pity I'm in another country or he would be doing it,
Or maybe he will ? , aftermarket block has to shipped from there,