Engine Rebuilding Costs ?

[Challenger340]

Here we go again... seems to be a fair bit of speculation regarding just what "costs" should be.... associated with Rebuilding an Engine ?
or,
just what constitutes "Apples to Apples" when doing so ?

And usually, it would seem to me anyways....
these comments tend to be centered around things are too expensive... and somebody must be making too much ?

Does anyone here really believe... that they should be able to purchase a cheap Stroker Kit, Balanced of course... and very simply "Bore & Hone" a Block... stuff it in.... and ALL should be good to go ? I would REALLY like to hear from you

and conversely,
I would also like to hear what people think "should" be done, keeping in mind here... that most on here at the bare minimum.... seem to want a 440 with far more HP & Torque that was ever envisioned at the Factory ? or to install a "Stroker" Kit in a 40 year old Block ?

I'll go first... with what is IMO, a pretty basic list of "standard" (NOT Race)Block Machining Operations for a "Performance" style Engine, that the DIY Guy is going to take home and screw together himself.

1.) You can punch in costs associated according to your own Geographical Area ?
2.) Price each operation Individually, because as we all know... MANY of these things are NOT DONE at many places to keep costs down... and we need to compare "apples to Apples".
3.) ANYTHING you think should NOT be included in the List... STATE IT... and give your reasons WHY it is not necessary !

* Remove Cam Bearings, Frost & Gallery Plugs, Dizzy Tower Bushing.
* Hot Tank wash Block
* Crack Inspection... either just "Visual" or Mag in critical Areas... or WHAT Inspection do you feel should be done ?
* Machine & Align Hone Mains... if "STUDS" are used. By the time someone cleans up the saddles, installs the Studs & Caps, then Torques them 3X with correct Lubricant(ARP Rec), sets the Bore gauge and "checks" .... only to find BB Mopar 2 Bolt Caps are distorted by the Studs... (usually just quicker to Align Hone anyways for a performance build with the added benefit of being able to SET the Vertical Main Bearing Clearance, conduscive to the build/Oil used, instead of taking whatever is there)
* Bore 8 Cylinders(left .005" down from final to allow for Torque Plate distortion when Honed)
* Thread chase all Head Bolt Holes
* Install Cylinder Torque Plates properly(see above)
* Mic all 8 Pistons
* Hone-Fit Piston to Wall (if Moly Rings add JHU625 or 820 W/Plateau Brushes)
* Wash Block (or do expect it to be put up for deck surfacing dripping Honing Oil all over ?)
* Surface Block Decks .010/.010
* Wash Block Final
* Install Cam Bearings & check Cam "fit", fit as req'd(big problem on BB Mopars)
* install Frost & Gallery Plugs, Dizzy Tower Bushing
* Wrap Block (keep clean)

* Re-Grind Crankshaft(if using an old one), or, Re-Grinding the NEW cheaper Stroker Cranks that are + .0005" Taper / O.O.R. or variance between Journals ?
 keep in mind here... either the time to Mic the Crank to determine the above here.... the idea being does anybody want an Engine with .0018" Clearance on one Rod, and .0029" on another Rod, in the same Engine, on a supposed "Performance" Engine Build ?
* Check Vertical Rod Bearing Clearance... or is "whatever" as delivered in Stroker Kits OK ? State "why" you believe factory "specs" are even relevant to aftermarket Cranks with "N" designation bearing never used from factory ?
* Re-Size Rods if using "stock" Rods, W/ARP Bolts, Check and SET Vertical Bearing Clearance to Crank Journal sizes measured and recorded above.
* Pin-Fit Rod small ends (ALL H-Beam bushed Stroker Kit Rods come @.0002" to .0003"... with instructions to Pin-Fit between .0009" to .0015" )
* Pin-Fit Piston Pin Bores ( same as above, call the manu... same rec's but delivered @ .0002" to .0003".... ever wonder WHY they are so tight for those who have opened their own cheapy Stroker kits ??)
* Wash the Pistons & Rods obviously... re-box them back up.


If YOU are screwing it together YOURSELF at home..... and are NOT going to point fingers at anybody else should anything go wrong ?
How much of the above do you believe is necessary ?
What do you believe is UN-necessary... state WHY !
How many of you believe ALL OF THE ABOVE ? and WHAT should it cost ?

If nothing else here... maybe we can have a "list" for people to reference when considering Rebuilding... or Stroker Kits... or even Crate Engines... to ASK what has been done when assessing prices ?
or,
exactly WHAT they are getting !
or,
a good idea of what they are looking at to do it decent ?

[rednuck]

First post, but I've lurked in the proven engine combo's forums forever because I love reading those posts. I am doing a stroker build for myself and have semi planned/priced these things out. 
 
For me I had a similar list with additions:

1 - Sonic Checking - Can it support the bore I want safely before I do any more work to this thing
2 - Oiling system detailing - I can run a reamer down an oil gallery, but I don't know what I am doing a professional can do that
3 - Any clearancing needed for the stroker kit

As for the rotating assemble I have been torn, some places I have been looking at claim they do things like checking the crank and resizing the rod ends (I am looking at muscle motors). They seem reputable but do you have someone else check them over? I don't know yet. Some other places I would have all this done for sure, and probably rebalanced. 

[cdr]

i think everything you have should be done + before decking i like to install front & rear pistons without rings to calculate deck height,so i'll know how much to cut.

[Challenger340]

First post, but I've lurked in the proven engine combo's forums forever because I love reading those posts. I am doing a stroker build for myself and have semi planned/priced these things out. 
 
For me I had a similar list with additions:

1 - Sonic Checking - Can it support the bore I want safely before I do any more work to this thing
2 - Oiling system detailing - I can run a reamer down an oil gallery, but I don't know what I am doing a professional can do that
3 - Any clearancing needed for the stroker kit

As for the rotating assemble I have been torn, some places I have been looking at claim they do things like checking the crank and resizing the rod ends (I am looking at muscle motors). They seem reputable but do you have someone else check them over? I don't know yet. Some other places I would have all this done for sure, and probably rebalanced. 
 
I estimated 1500 for the work, and judging by the city on your dyno sheet's I'm about 3 hours south of you. Still tempted to have someone install a ProGram style 4 bolt main so that would add to the cost.
Some extra money at a machine shop seems like nothing compared to a fresh new window in your block.

Yep, ALL good practise... stuff I do here as well for my own piece of mind.... but for arguments sake I have left out.... because of the more "Street" Performance NON-Race criterion.
* Sonic Testing always a good idea... even at .030" over
* I usually just default to the 1/2" HEMI Pickup & Port through to the Pump mount face, if anywhere above 6,000rpm expected.
* No clearancing required on 4.150" stroke W/Mopar 2.375" Journals.... very small amount at the pickup Boss using 4.250" Stroke and 2.200" Cheb Journal the way I do it...(even with opening to 1/2" HEMI), but I use an offset "mount" that bolts to the pan Rail for pre-drilling the existing 3/8" Pickup hole offset, for extra room/insurance on the 4.250 Strokes running internal 1/2" pickup.

Yeah Muscle Motors have a good reputation... but same as at all times about "last Guy who touches it"..... so check for sure ! and as always... what YOU believe adequate vertical Clearance should be, for YOUR application ?

[Challenger340]

i think everything you have should be done + before decking i like to install front & rear pistons without rings to calculate deck height,so i'll know how much to cut.

Yep, and again..... stuff I always like to do here as well prior to Block Decking ? I even have a BHJ Fixture to tell Block heights on my Block Mill, but I still like a quick "mock-up" of piston heights....  just to be sure ? especially if quench is going to be an issue ?
again though...
I am keeping it to basic operations for more "Street" oriented type stuff, that Guys don't believe is either important, or WORTH paying for ? when contemplating what Engine Building actually costs to do it right ?

As a side note;
I turn away a lot of work.... plenty busy anyways, but lots I turn away.... simply because the Guy on the Phone asking wants "just this" !
And when you ask him about the rest..... it's NO... ALL I want is THIS !
For my own part... I just feel I am best NOT to be associated with that CRAP... Guys just entering into recipes for disaster.... if they don't wish to do it right.. I don't want ANY part of it !

example;
This guy was having problems getting his new Stroker Kit to turn over while assembling... every time he Torqued up a couple of Rods, the thing got really tight !
phonecall... ring...ring...
Hello ?
"Will YOU Check & Size my Rods and How much ? My Engine won't turn over when I Torque my Rods up"
Sure... as long as you bring me the Crank and your Rod Bearings... about $150... BTW, bring your pistons and we'll Pin-Fit the Rods & Pistons while we're there for an extra $60.
"Why do you need them ? All I want is my Rods Checked & Re-sized ? "
OK.... you tell ME what size you want them... undersize by how much ? Lowside ?... Mid-Size ?.... HighSide ?
"Well I want 2 1/2 Thou Clearance"
That's Fine... but I can't tell how "Big or Little" your Crank Journals are... or how "thick or thin" your Bearings are... over the phone ? I need to Mic them to SET the relationship, and Clearance, when I am Sizing the Rods ? so I can't "Size" your Rods without them.
"Well just make them to specs"
I can't... WHAT "spec" do you want ?
"Ah Fawk you... Joe Blow will Size them for $100 Bucks anyways...so FAWK OFF !
OK,
CLICK !

[69wannabe]

I bought my kit at mancini racing and as soon as it got here I took it all to my regular machine guy and he done the block work and checked all the new parts which turned out to all be good without anything having to be done to the rotating assembly. It is just a street runner and we didn't do main studs or stud the heads. We just did ARP main bolts and head bolts. I put it all together after he gave me the green light on it and it went together nicely without any problems. Like said above just done a little grinding on the oil pick up boss and that was it. It had the smaller chebby journals too. I wound up with maybe 6 grand in the engine with all the costs of a new intake and carb and the cam and lifters and the rocker arms and the head work that was done. I notice that alot of guys on here just want a healthy 440 with 400+ horses and from my experience can be done for about half or at least 2 grand less than a stroker since the kit usually costs 2 grand. Usually depends on how bad of condition the engine is in when it makes it to the machine shop. Machine work is necessary and has to be done in order to have a good running and long lasting engine. When I drop an engine off at my machine shop I just tell him to do whatever it needs. That's the best way when it comes to machine work. Now it depends on your location as to how expensive machine shop labor and mechanic labor is. A good built 440 stock stroke where I live would run about 4 to 5 grand for an overhaul job. It may run someone else across the map 10 grand for the same job. Engine building is just expensive anyway you go but you want to do it right the first time and don't cut corners or you will be doing it over again at twice the labor.

[green69rt]

i think everything you have should be done + before decking i like to install front & rear pistons without rings to calculate deck height,so i'll know how much to cut.

Hay, Charlie.  I think I will really rely on you a lot if I ever get to the engine building stage.    Do you charge for consulting?!!

[cdr]

i think everything you have should be done + before decking i like to install front & rear pistons without rings to calculate deck height,so i'll know how much to cut.

Hay, Charlie.  I think I will really rely on you a lot if I ever get to the engine building stage.    Do you charge for consulting?!!

lol,,, what i do know is free of charge, i am always trying to learn more,challenger 340,really seems to know his stuff.

[Cooter]

Challenger340 (Bob is it?)..
I think your going through what us meckanecks go through with this economy. Reminds me of that old commercial where the dude is standing in his living room in about 6" of water. Calls up a Plummer and plummer says "I can be right over" dude says, "oh no, I have  .  To shop around. Don't wanna pay too much"......

I've learned in this day and age, people don't trust jack sh*t. Doesn't matter how many 3000 hp wedges you've built that lived, they will never trust you to do what's "correct". People will always go for the cheapest sh*t they can buy, then get pissed when you tell em I told you so.

Got an old high school buddy building a customers T350 trans. I thought he was gonna pass out when I told him whatever it needs, do it.
He said "you mean you don't want me to make chicken salad out of chicken sh*t? I ain't used to that!"

Proof is in the puddin'. No matter how well you try to protect the dumbass from him/herself, in the end, they will pay that jack leg $100.00 to do those rods, whine and moan about how they can't find a good machinist, and pay way more in the long run trying 15 different things some putz online told them to before they come back to you and did it correctly and cheaper the first time.
just the nature of people these days. Yet, when it comes to their favorite beer, cell phone, going out to eat, they spend money like it's rain water.

This was the hardest thing for me to get past when answering questions online. Nobody cares bout experience, all they care bout is whatever's cheapest. Right, or wrong. Keep the faith, people will get worse.

[firefighter3931]

Bob's list looks good and as mentioned above a sonic check before boring is allways a good idea...especially when the engine is going to be leaned on hard. 

The difference between an average engine and an exceptional one is the attention to detail. The better it is built, the more power it will make and the longer it will last. It's as simple as that ! 


Ron

[Challenger340]

Challenger340 (Bob is it?)..
I think your going through what us meckanecks go through with this economy. Reminds me of that old commercial where the dude is standing in his living room in about 6" of water. Calls up a Plummer and plummer says "I can be right over" dude says, "oh no, I have  .  To shop around. Don't wanna pay too much"......

I've learned in this day and age, people don't trust jack sh*t. Doesn't matter how many 3000 hp wedges you've built that lived, they will never trust you to do what's "correct". People will always go for the cheapest sh*t they can buy, then get pissed when you tell em I told you so.

Got an old high school buddy building a customers T350 trans. I thought he was gonna pass out when I told him whatever it needs, do it.
He said "you mean you don't want me to make chicken salad out of chicken sh*t? I ain't used to that!"

Proof is in the puddin'. No matter how well you try to protect the dumbass from him/herself, in the end, they will pay that jack leg $100.00 to do those rods, whine and moan about how they can't find a good machinist, and pay way more in the long run trying 15 different things some putz online told them to before they come back to you and did it correctly and cheaper the first time.
just the nature of people these days. Yet, when it comes to their favorite beer, cell phone, going out to eat, they spend money like it's rain water.

This was the hardest thing for me to get past when answering questions online. Nobody cares bout experience, all they care bout is whatever's cheapest. Right, or wrong. Keep the faith, people will get worse.

EXACTLY COOTER ! yep.. it's Bob.
And being in the Business... we're just seeing more & more Failed Crap showing up here these days ?
Everything from simple DIY Stroker attempts machined at the local Farm Implement Machine Shop... to Crate Engine Purchases(un-Dyno'd)... and everything in between ?
For me... I just think an EDUCATIONAL PROCESS that needs to get out there somehow !!

You know... there just isn't any "poetic justice" left in it for me anymore ?
I don't give a fawk.. I just don't need the Money that bad anymore ?
I am at the point, where although I feel sorry for Guys... I have to be an Asshole and just say.. it weren't built here... it won't be getting FIXED here !

I mean here is an extreme... yet prime example of what I am talking about;
I quoted this 605 Inch HEMI build years ago at $35K.. DYNO'D... which was TOO MUCH for the Guy !

So... it got built elsewhere, FINE by me !
Now, 5 years and $53,000 spent already later... and 9 passes in 5 years down the Track, been apart 4 or 6 times ? already getting fixed, spun bearings... Cam / Valvetrain problems, yada, yada
Now... AFTER THE FACT... it gets shipped all the way out here to see if I will "take a look"... see if I can do anything with it ? Help the Guy out ?
WTF am I supposed to do ?
Wave some kind of Magic Wand as a specialized Engine Janitor and make it right ?
This is a Lose/Lose situation NOW both ways... for ME and the Customer ?

I'll take it apart.... and see if anything is Salvageable towards a new build ??
BUT WHAT A FAWKING MESS !
How in the Fawk does this shit keep happening ?

$53,000 Dollar.... 605 HEMI....  that's gone 2 1/4 Miles in 5 years.... and been apart 4 ? or 6 ? times already ?

[Cooter]

Ya know Bob....ive found that some folks will stand on the train tracks, you tell em "you see that smoke?, you hear that whistle?, feel the rails shaking? Get off the track, the train's a comin'".....


Some will move, some have to get hit by that train in order to learn. The way I usually deal with these types is like I told a buddy one time, when I offered him a fender and hood for his '66 Dodge Coroner. You know, just in case, kinda like spares at a deal.
his reply...
"Nah, don't need em right now"....
My reply...
"Price triples after you hit a deer"....

I've found these types have the money evidently, they just wanna haggle. Why they look a gift horse in the mouth I'll never know, but the second time, I bust their ass until they bleed on price. Why so high? Cause his stupidity just cost him a bundle. Why should you take one cause he's a dumbass?

[rednuck]

Yeah Muscle Motors have a good reputation... but same as at all times about "last Guy who touches it"..... so check for sure ! and as always... what YOU believe adequate vertical Clearance should be, for YOUR application ?

Very understandable, but I can also see where people would question it, is the "next guy who touches it" going to charge you for fixing it even though he didn't do anything? or maybe he is worse then the last guy and messes it up? finding the right person to do the work for you is probably the most important thing. I assumed 0.0010 for every inch of journal diameter was correct. Maybe it's not, maybe its close enough for everything I have rebuilt. It's now on the list of things for the machine shop to check, because they know more then I do.

Trust seems to be the most important thing as always, nobody wants to be screwed over for work that wasn't needed. On the other hand nobody wants their name attached to something that didn't get all the work it needed.

[1974dodgecharger]

So challenger when u gonna build me an engine , cheaply with 450hp to the wheels

[Cooter]

I used to, and to some degree I still think it's a bit pompous, but Sonny's Racing Engines here in Va. Would build good mtn. Motors for the little guy. Now it seems, if you don't walk through the door with about $100k in your hand And, they tell you to go doown the road to another shop.
I guess they like dealing with people that just spend and trust blindly. But, the little guy gets forgotten about as soon as these shops get on TV or become "too big" to mess with your "little street motor".

[randy73]

Not to dispute anything anybody said above, but in 81 I did this to my 440.

I took a 68 440 out of a Newport and dropped it into a 74 Duster, I had the heads ported, cam (do not remember the specs), Hooker headers and holley 4bbl carb( again, do not remember the specs), bored it over .040 and had an aftermarket intake (not sure what). Bo Laws hot tanked it (twice) once after boring and decking and the second after I honed it. Again let me point out that I did this back before I knew a lot about building and engine (still don't), but I drove that car 4 times to Bithlo speedway ( now Orlando speedway, about 15 miles each way) with 4:10's and raced 2-3 times each night. Then got a WILD hair and drove it to Gainesville, FL for the Gotrors, with 3:55's and changed the chunk to for 4:10's and had a bunch of practice runs and 3 real runs (did very well and yes it was beginners luck). Changed back to 3:55's and drove home, kept the car 3 yrs and put 4-5k miles and had ZERO problems.

What I am saying is Challenger 340 and Cooter make very valid points, but they are also showing the worst scenario's and was I very lucky maybe or maybe I did what I am doing now and asking these guys questions and making choices based on informed answers to my questions.

What I am saying is this and Cooter, Challenger and a great many people before have said, 'GET THE INFO, BOTH GOOD AND BAD FIRST, then buy parts and NEVER  by parts before you know what you need. You can go cheap if you know what you are doing, if you don't, then PAY for that experience and you will rarely go wrong.

I am 50 yrs old, I have built a 500+ 93 LT1 vette and have a 01 Jag XKR that I work on myself, I have had the good luck to know a lot of fine people who helped me a long. I still learn everyday, the internet can be your best friend or your worst enemy, best friend in that you can find knowledgable people like here and your worst enemy, because also here and ebay and other places, you have dumb A$$es that spout stupid things. So, before you except ANYBODIES advice, research what they say and verify what they say.

Now I will get off my soap box.

[Challenger340]

Yeah Muscle Motors have a good reputation... but same as at all times about "last Guy who touches it"..... so check for sure ! and as always... what YOU believe adequate vertical Clearance should be, for YOUR application ?

Very understandable, but I can also see where people would question it, is the "next guy who touches it" going to charge you for fixing it even though he didn't do anything? or maybe he is worse then the last guy and messes it up? finding the right person to do the work for you is probably the most important thing. I assumed 0.0010 for every inch of journal diameter was correct. Maybe it's not, maybe its close enough for everything I have rebuilt. It's now on the list of things for the machine shop to check, because they know more then I do.

Trust seems to be the most important thing as always, nobody wants to be screwed over for work that wasn't needed. On the other hand nobody wants their name attached to something that didn't get all the work it needed.

yep,
.001" per inch of journal diameter is a pretty good DIY'er ballpark for Vertical clearance.... for stock, and slightly above stock stuff... just fine !
and,
That Rec also fits with "plasti-gauge" as being the rudimentary tool employed by Mechanics in the field.

One of the problems with it though... IMO,
is that it is very simplistic "information" typically garnered by Ancient Machine Shops, that were typically involved in Generic machining of 350's in bygone days... don't know any better today... but are still in Business today, having transitioned over to "performance" style work today to stay afloat as what's still out there for work ?
Don't wish to dis anybody ?... but it does lack REAL Blueprinting saavy ?

And herein can be the problem.... when people take that supposedly "good to go" information from a Shop, and THINK.... they are then armed with sufficent knowledge to then attempt a DIY Stroker Engine with higher Loads/rpm/Power output.
* What side clearance on the Rods in pairs measured on the Journals FITS best with that .001" per inch of Journal ?
* For what targeted Oil.... 15W-40 ?  20W-50 ? Synthetics ?
* On what Bearing Eccentricity ? P ?  H ? V ?  What if you require an X on any of those ?
* What bearing material... TM77... B2... Alecular or Aluminum ?

remember,
the only way the Bearings COOL, is by the free flow of Oil in... and OUT again.... to allow new cooling Oil lifeblood. And as Housing Bores are tightened or loosened to attain the barnyard .001" per inch of Journal... so to is the eccentricity of the Bearing thickness over closer to the parting lines from CRUSH at Torque.
For example;
.0028" Vertical Clrc. on a highside Crank attained with an H Eccentricity NX Bearing with a highside bore on .0018" S.C. in pairs for example, will exhibit .0045" over 60* from vertical.... What Oil Weight you want to run on that ? How much Ring/Pin Splash you want ? What RPM ?
Some guy said "good to go" right ? ... based on the .001" per inch ?
whereas...
The same .0028" Vertical Clrc attained on an HN bearing with a tight Housing Bore and max crush, will only exhibit .0035" @ 60* from vertical and is far better for controlling BOTH Longevity/Loads/Rpm & cooling even at higher S.C.'s on ANY Oil weight, especially if synthetics are contemplated. Bearing alloys and construction also modify above methods.

It is amazing how many Machinists/ Builders think, and use, the "Just make it Sloppy for Clearance" method for anything performance based, simply because they know NO BETTER !

Apologies for the long-winded explanation.
It's just that IMO, far too much continuity has been lost industry wide !
Factory "specs".... and "rules of thumb", are as about as relevant Today on Strokers Crank with High Radius Filets, using narrow Brgs with H-beam Rods...
as,
"Righty Tighty... Lefty Loosey"..... is to "Torque to Yield".
Gets you pointed in the right direction... but without a clue as to WHY ?

Again IMO, People need to start having these conversations with their Machinists/Builders BEFOREHAND, and force the educational upswing Industry wide.
If Customers start asking their Guys.... and get met with a BLANK STARES ?... Dumb Answers ?... maybe later.... their "Guys" will go start reading those Clevitte Technical Bulletins and BONE UP !
Lots of BLIND Chickens still get the odd Kernel of Corn ?.... and "sh*t will Run".... I just think more EDUCATION needs to get out there at ALL levels ? We'll all see better Engines.

There is a REASON 850-1,000 hp HEMI's & Wedges..... can LIVE @7,000-8,000 rpm year after year, pass after pass, with just "freshenings" every few seasons.
It is not LUCK... it is NOT Magic...it is because they are INVESTMENTS, and they get treated as such at the start !
 

[Ghoste]

An overlooked factor here is that there truly are a LOT of unqualified builders out there and that influences this hugely.  There are far too many people who are in the business but just marginally keeping it together so they hire the cheapest guys and use the cheapest products and make the biggest promises.
A good engine build is expensive but you wont hear me bitching about it on these pages.  You will also never ever hear me endorse the two most local auto machine shops. 
I'd rather ship it to Alberta and pay to know it was done right than use the guys close to me.  (actually there are people in Ontario who are qualified but as a matter of illustration I used Alberta)

[rednuck]

are you really trying to say that nobody should ever build their own engines? That's what it comes off as to me.

You've put together a great list that should be titled "What you need to know, or ask your machinist about". Personally I wouldn't be interested in racing if I wasn't doing any work myself, buying everything and going fast doesn't interest me. Heck I'd attempt the machining myself if I had the tools.

Conversations should go more like this:
I would like to have the vertical clearance set on this application
What would you like it to be?
I am not 100% sure and was hoping you could help me with it I am thinking .0024, I have X bearings and plan on making around 650hp,using 10w-30 synthetic and running at 6000rpm + whatever applicable information.

If I heard WHY ARE YOU SO STUPID BUY A CRATE ENGINE I wouldn't get anything done at that shop.
If I heard well those are probably the wrong bearings for this application, or I'd recommend X they would probably have a customer for life.

[Cooter]

I don't think That is what he said.
people come in and want something done, they don't understand or want to even be asked any type technical questions, because they tend to think they look like a dumbass. Nobody is trying to make them look like a dumbass, but when someone wants you to do something you know is gonna ruin your reputation, the first thing they do is cop an attitude, you whether it be paint and body, auto mechanical repair, or machine shop work, and you attempt to steer them straight and they think your trying to charge for unnecessary work... You dont want or need those type customers. There's an old saying...."The customer's always right"?
No sometimes, the customer is an arrogant, egotistical, ass that can't understand when someone is trying to do them right.

[1974dodgecharger]

Sounds like to in a short way of saying is, buy a crate engine, its less complicated than to deal with a builder.

[Cooter]

Sounds like to in a short way of saying is, buy a crate engine, its less complicated than to deal with a builder.

That would be exactly what I think Bob is trying to say. Too many today have this attitude and don't like to admit that even that crate engine can be assembled incorrectly with clearances that are off.

But far be it for any GOOD machine shop to want to go through the trouble (AFTERALL, building a RELIABLE 650 hp engine is harder than just plunking down money on a credit card mail order crate motor) of building it correctly as to preserve its rep.

[Homerr]

After reading this I'm googling some costs for machine work, here's some of what I found.

http://www.pmeracing.com/machinework.html
http://www.pmeracing.com/balancing.htm

http://www.440source.com/machinework.htm

http://www.besracing.com/machine-shop-services.html

http://www.coymiller.com/rates/rates.htm

http://www.automachperf.com/pricelist.html


I fall in to the category of knowing some questions to ask and some of what I want, but don't know about those unknown unknowns.  I'll eventually having a 440 rebuild done stock, with some improvement for reliability and efficiency.  I'd be looking at balancing, improved oiling, degreeing the cam, mild cleanup on the ports, and dyno break-in and tuning.

I'm open to other services too, and this is a good discussion to get educated on.  Still, I tend to fall closer to "I'd like a reliable street motor build" from a shop with a great reputation rather than "I'd like services A-G; but definitely not H and I; and J-M; but not N-Z and make sure all 8 widgets in the thingamajiggy are within 0.0000001" clearance of each other".  Ok, that is simplified, but hopefully you get my meaning.

I can't be an expert at everything and it seems to me a motor would be a good thing to have an expert build.

[ACUDANUT]

I see a lot of jaw jacking, but no real prices.  Last time I built a 440 10 years ago it was 4500. Still runs like a champ.
If you own a Hemi, I am sure it is triple, for a standard 426.
All aluminum, add 10 times the price.

[Challenger340]

are you really trying to say that nobody should ever build their own engines? That's what it comes off as to me.

You've put together a great list that should be titled "What you need to know, or ask your machinist about". Personally I wouldn't be interested in racing if I wasn't doing any work myself, buying everything and going fast doesn't interest me. Heck I'd attempt the machining myself if I had the tools.

Conversations should go more like this:
I would like to have the vertical clearance set on this application
What would you like it to be?
I am not 100% sure and was hoping you could help me with it I am thinking .0024, I have X bearings and plan on making around 650hp,using 10w-30 synthetic and running at 6000rpm + whatever applicable information.

If I heard WHY ARE YOU SO STUPID BUY A CRATE ENGINE I wouldn't get anything done at that shop.
If I heard well those are probably the wrong bearings for this application, or I'd recommend X they would probably have a customer for life.

IMO, you need to SLOW DOWN and actually READ what I said before flying off the handle ?

I never said anything of the sort !...
I think people SHOULD INDEED Assemble their own Engines ! That is part of the fun & gratification of accomplishment for being involved in Cars !

What I said was...
people who are going to do so... when it comes to Strokers & Performance stuff beyond entry levels... need to start Educating and arming themselves... so they can ask the right questions...
far beyond... being scared or intimidated
and just running into some Machine Shop with little to NO real experience away from generic sb Chevs, for the cursory "it's all good" before THEY take it home to screw it together themselves ?
Too often.... it's the DUMB asking the DUMBER these days ! ... and too many poor results.

On a side note... the "Conversation" you exampled above.... is exactly what I am talking about !

Guys bring their stuff in here... and want a Machine Package done that are going to Assembled themselves.
I think that's GREAT !
Because I know that with some simple instructions and assistance if they require it... I can make them, and their Build  LOOK GREAT !
So,
I then always ask applications, and make sure we have a conversation about Oils, RPM, Power output, intended Street/Strip etc., etc., wherein at the end... usually they WANT my recommended Clearances etc.
It also allows me to assess their knowledge level... and politely fill in any blanks I think they might not understand ?

When they pick it up....
they get back ALL PARTS checked/recorded, with for example here... each Bearing numbered for it's Hole, with the recommended Torque Values / Lube used / Clearances @ Torque and Temp.

Like this on each Bearing Box ;
.0028" @ 63 Ft/Lbs Vertical, 3X W/ARP Moly O.T.U.H., 70* F.
Which Translates that there is .0028" Vertical Clearance at 63 Ft/lbs on that Bearing...in that Bore.... Torqued "3X" or 3 times as per ARP specs; being up to Torque, back 1/8 turn, up to Torque a 2nd time and back 1/8, then up to Torque a 3rd and final(overcome friction to Inertia as per ARP), and of course the O.T.U.H. that the ARP Moly is used On Threads and Under Heads, all accomplished at 70* F.
THIS IS DONE FOR REPEATABILITY
So,
that when the Guy goes home to Assemble it himself.... he KNOWS what he has... he knows I have done... and he can REPEAT and get the Clearances he has PAID for, and Assemble it with Confidence !
Main Brgs, Rod Brgs, Pin Bores, Rod small ends, Rod Big ends, Crankshaft, Pistons #'d for Block Cylinders, all Housing Bores, etc., etc., are all Measured/Recorded and given back for the Assembler/Builder with a specification Sheet with Torques values for them to follow.
I make DAMN SURE they are not going to have any problems !

Nobody called anybody stupid here... and I certainly did NOT either !
All I said was "Customers" need to start educating themselves .... if they wish to Assemble their own stuff these days..... increase THEIR own awareness and start having conversations with their Machinists past "Good to Go" when they pick it up ?

"Trust" only with a verbal... with nothing "written" or "recorded" when you pick your Machining up ? .... is IMO... one hell of a stupid way for a DIY Performance or Stroker Investment undertaking.

LOTS of good Shops in ALL geographical locations that everyone can access... tell them you want a written report of CLEARANCES and how they were accomplished when Machined... so you can REPEAT it when you take it home for assembly.
The GOOD ones will readily comply because they have done it PROPERLY and will have that information...

If you get BLANK STARES with another "Good to Go".... you are at the wrong place....WALK AWAY !    

[justcruisin]

Personally I enjoy putting my engines together, I don't claim to be an expert, far from it infact. I think doing your own assembly is a great thing and the satisfaction is all part of the reason why we wrench on these old beasts. At times I have walked away from the machine shop leaving my stuff there and not being to sure if the machinist and I are on the same wave length. Good on ya Bob for putting this thread up and initiating some discusion on the subject. I think most of us would feel more confident with dealing with a shop and in our own assembly with a little more knowledge regardless if you do the assembly or the shop does it.

[1974dodgecharger]

some people dont have the 'knack' to build a engine they want thats why crate engines are so tempting for some VS feeling getting ripped off from a machinist who builds the engine etc.

are you really trying to say that nobody should ever build their own engines? That's what it comes off as to me.

You've put together a great list that should be titled "What you need to know, or ask your machinist about". Personally I wouldn't be interested in racing if I wasn't doing any work myself, buying everything and going fast doesn't interest me. Heck I'd attempt the machining myself if I had the tools.

Conversations should go more like this:
I would like to have the vertical clearance set on this application
What would you like it to be?
I am not 100% sure and was hoping you could help me with it I am thinking .0024, I have X bearings and plan on making around 650hp,using 10w-30 synthetic and running at 6000rpm + whatever applicable information.

If I heard WHY ARE YOU SO STUPID BUY A CRATE ENGINE I wouldn't get anything done at that shop.
If I heard well those are probably the wrong bearings for this application, or I'd recommend X they would probably have a customer for life.

IMO, you need to SLOW DOWN and actually READ what I said before flying off the handle ?

I never said anything of the sort !...
I think people SHOULD INDEED Assemble their own Engines ! That is part of the fun & gratification of accomplishment for being involved in Cars !

What I said was...
people who are going to do so... when it comes to Strokers & Performance stuff beyond entry levels... need to start Educating and arming themselves... so they can ask the right questions...
far beyond... being scared or intimidated
and just running into some Machine Shop with little to NO real experience away from generic sb Chevs, for the cursory "it's all good" before THEY take it home to screw it together themselves ?
Too often.... it's the DUMB asking the DUMBER these days ! ... and too many poor results.

On a side note... the "Conversation" you exampled above.... is exactly what I am talking about !

Guys bring their stuff in here... and want a Machine Package done that are going to Assembled themselves.
I think that's GREAT !
Because I know that with some simple instructions and assistance if they require it... I can make them, and their Build  LOOK GREAT !
So,
I then always ask applications, and make sure we have a conversation about Oils, RPM, Power output, intended Street/Strip etc., etc., wherein at the end... usually they WANT my recommended Clearances etc.
It also allows me to assess their knowledge level... and politely fill in any blanks I think they might not understand ?

When they pick it up....
they get back ALL PARTS checked/recorded, with for example here... each Bearing numbered for it's Hole, with the recommended Torque Values / Lube used / Clearances @ Torque and Temp.

Like this on each Bearing Box ;
.0028" @ 63 Ft/Lbs Vertical, 3X W/ARP Moly O.T.U.H., 70* F.
Which Translates that there is .0028" Vertical Clearance at 63 Ft/lbs on that Bearing...in that Bore.... Torqued "3X" or 3 times as per ARP specs; being up to Torque, back 1/8 turn, up to Torque a 2nd time and back 1/8, then up to Torque a 3rd and final(overcome friction to Inertia as per ARP), and of course the O.T.U.H. that the ARP Moly is used On Threads and Under Heads, all accomplished at 70* F.
THIS IS DONE FOR REPEATABILITY
So,
that when the Guy goes home to Assemble it himself.... he KNOWS what he has... he knows I have done... and he can REPEAT and get the Clearances he has PAID for, and Assemble it with Confidence !
Main Brgs, Rod Brgs, Pin Bores, Rod small ends, Rod Big ends, Crankshaft, Pistons #'d for Block Cylinders, all Housing Bores, etc., etc., are all Measured/Recorded and given back for the Assembler/Builder with a specification Sheet with Torques values for them to follow.
I make DAMN SURE they are not going to have any problems !

Nobody called anybody stupid here... and I certainly did NOT either !
All I said was "Customers" need to start educating themselves .... if they wish to Assemble their own stuff these days..... increase THEIR own awareness and start having conversations with their Machinists past "Good to Go" when they pick it up ?

"Trust" only with a verbal... with nothing "written" or "recorded" when you pick your Machining up ? .... is IMO... one hell of a stupid way for a DIY Performance or Stroker Investment undertaking.

LOTS of good Shops in ALL geographical locations that everyone can access... tell them you want a written report of CLEARANCES and how they were accomplished when Machined... so you can REPEAT it when you take it home for assembly.
The GOOD ones will readily comply because they have done it PROPERLY and will have that information...

If you get BLANK STARES with another "Good to Go".... you are at the wrong place....WALK AWAY !    

[Cooter]

My son who's in the military, just bought a $550.00 PIECE OF SHEOT 2000 Dodge pick up. Full size 2WD.
Found out the trans had only 2nd and OD. Got online and found a video on rebuilding the trans, along with books.

The arguement about not having the knack/ability/resources/time/etc. Is invalid. Not Today. With all the info out there, it is IMPOSSIBLE not to find SOMETHING on rebuilding engines...hell, call up ANY cam company and if they wanna sell you a cam, they will point you in the right direction.

[ws23rt]

I appreciate someones wanting to be involved in building their own engine but if all they have is the desire than a step back is is order. 

Even assembling an expertly machined package is something that needs to be done with proper knowledge and care. It can be done by a novice with step by step care. And is a fun part of being involved.

Too many want that involvement and are not up to speed.  Those are better left to the engine swap and move on to driving the beast.

I'm all for understanding the whole process and being involved with the engine package but why step in the middle of a build just to turn the last wrench.

Not much saved and a potential headache for all.

[justcruisin]

Question - Prior to making decisions on my rebuild for my Charger I took the block into the shop for them to check over, I asked them to bolt up a torque plate and check for out of round. The bores were in good visual shape and I measured them myself beforehand, they measured good with no out of round or tapper as the engine had been bored prior without a torque plate and had only done minimal miles. The shop told me I needed to re bore as there was .002" out of round with the plate on. I got the block back to think about it. I torqued up a new edelbrock head and measured from underneath. I only found the bore to be .00075" out. Maybe it was my measuring but as this was a street build I opted for the shop to give it a light hone which gave me .004" on 4032 pistons. You can hear the pistons, even when hot but after 1000 miles I did a compression and leakdown, all even at 178-180psi and between 7 and 8% leakdown. I'm sure a pro could do better but I am happy with it all things considered.
So - my question is, how important is torque plate bore/hone and how can you simulated the same load especially with iron vs aluminium, or is the swelling of the bolt area reason enough on its own.

[ACUDANUT]

What is a torque plate bore/hone. I've been around the block a time or two, but have no idea of what your talking about.

[cdr]

What is a torque plate bore/hone. I've been around the block a time or two, but have no idea of what your talking about.

this might help

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CDcQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cylinderheadsupply.com%2Fmp-2.html&ei=qITuUtXaOsuNqQHfzoHYDw&usg=AFQjCNGvBzLWc6SzYDJhh_yQHAn7RmfOIQ&bvm=bv.60444564,d.aWM&cad=rja

[rednuck]

IMO, you need to SLOW DOWN and actually READ what I said before flying off the handle ?

I never said anything of the sort !...
I think people SHOULD INDEED Assemble their own Engines ! That is part of the fun & gratification of accomplishment for being involved in Cars !

I DID slow down and read it many times, and your posts to me keep coming across as bitterness towards DIYers with AWESOME advice on what you need to be discussing with your machine shop mixed in. It's great to know they just read that way and it's not how you really feel. Although you probably angered my machine shop people in the future, now that I am going to expect that much more from them.

Now I ask you, what other questions not discussed do people commonly come unprepared to answer? The best thing for both sides of this would be that nobody has a blank stare on their face when the information is exchanged. And it's also great that a customer knows when to run away from a shop when certain answers come out.

[Challenger340]

IMO, you need to SLOW DOWN and actually READ what I said before flying off the handle ?

I never said anything of the sort !...
I think people SHOULD INDEED Assemble their own Engines ! That is part of the fun & gratification of accomplishment for being involved in Cars !

I DID slow down and read it many times, and your posts to me keep coming across as bitterness towards DIYers with AWESOME advice on what you need to be discussing with your machine shop mixed in. It's great to know they just read that way and it's not how you really feel. Although you probably angered my machine shop people in the future, now that I am going to expect that much more from them.

Now I ask you, what other questions not discussed do people commonly come unprepared to answer? The best thing for both sides of this would be that nobody has a blank stare on their face when the information is exchanged. And it's also great that a customer knows when to run away from a shop when certain answers come out.

I probably just came off and read as "frustrated"... because I am.
I am seeing so many frigged up DIY projects coming in the door for repairs(NOT originally done here)... that should NOT be.. and I don't think would be.... if guys would just slow down... get the information... and ask questions where-ever they go ?

Not only is it expensive for the guys... it's killing a hobby based in DIY Guys !

I am just trying to get more information out there... that's it... that's all.
IMO,
people need to understand that the cheaper Stroker Kits require the most scrutiny... inversely proportional to original cost sometimes.
But it seems IMO... those who opt for the cheaper Kits based in Price... you guessed it... also seek out the cheapest when getting it checked over ?

On to better things.
I think another often overlooked area that should be discussed with your Machinist(I usually ask), is about break-in procedures as it relates to Final Cylinder Finishes ?
The "BEST" for easy ring seating with minimal wear to maintain Ring End-gaps, is not always "best" for every application ?

I like to go to a 400 Grit Plateau w/Brushes for Final on 1/16,1/16,3/16 Moly Ring-Packs, a "mirror" finish.
But,
If the Guy is not taking the Engine anywhere for Dyno'ing/Break-in, a controlled environment, or, he isn't really on the ball on fire-up.... the mirror finishes can have Pitfalls for ring-seal concerning fuel wash.... too late load applied, etc., etc.
Just saying...
sometimes better to skip the plateau Brushes... and only 4 swipes with the 400 stones over the 280's, leave it a little rougher... more forgiving for a Guy at home in his garage in case anything aint quite right ? More heat... you lose some gap/seal... but maybe safer/cheaper in the end ?

Another one I like to ask....
What Trans setup ? Clutch ?
Relates to "setting" Crank End-thrust for the Customer here before he takes it home ? Which I like to do here for the application.. or any Thrust Bearing oiling mods ?
Ask your Guy.... if they are "setting" your Crank End-Thrust for you ?
If the Guys just running a 11" Convertor.. yada..yada.. Street... usually NOT a Big deal... just make sure they know HOW to check/Set it themselves if they wish to do it ?
But,
you'd be surprised how many of those same Guys go stick a 4,000 lb pressure plate on their 4 spd even on a street deal nothing engine ?
And, No idea how much is right for the application ?
Nice to know BEFOREHAND, and if that's the case... I suggest they let me do it here for themt, and I'll also supply some oil pressure feed to the Thrust Bearing for insurance.

** With BB Mopars.... really important to get your Guy to check the Rear Main Seal Groove in the Block checked concentric with the Mains !
There are probably 50 really pretty "aftermarket" Rear Main Seal Retainer Caps out there, all trying to address, and supposedly CURE, rear main Leaks on BB Mopars ?
Why ?
Wuffor ?
THAT ain't the PROBLEM !! and no pretty CNC retainer will cure it !!
The PROBLEM....
is the groove in the Block that holds the upper Seal Halve is usually offset to one side, or the other side, from the Crank Centerline... so if you can't "see" it visually... get your guy to check and advise which way to drag the retainer into contact upon assembly to prevent leaks, and which side to offset the seal half from the parting line onto.

[Challenger340]

Question - Prior to making decisions on my rebuild for my Charger I took the block into the shop for them to check over, I asked them to bolt up a torque plate and check for out of round. The bores were in good visual shape and I measured them myself beforehand, they measured good with no out of round or tapper as the engine had been bored prior without a torque plate and had only done minimal miles. The shop told me I needed to re bore as there was .002" out of round with the plate on. I got the block back to think about it. I torqued up a new edelbrock head and measured from underneath. I only found the bore to be .00075" out. Maybe it was my measuring but as this was a street build I opted for the shop to give it a light hone which gave me .004" on 4032 pistons. You can hear the pistons, even when hot but after 1000 miles I did a compression and leakdown, all even at 178-180psi and between 7 and 8% leakdown. I'm sure a pro could do better but I am happy with it all things considered.
So - my question is, how important is torque plate bore/hone and how can you simulated the same load especially with iron vs aluminium, or is the swelling of the bolt area reason enough on its own.

A guy could drive himself nuts worrying about later ?... and what iff'ing things to death ? Whats done is done Piston rattle or not.
Nonetheless,
it sounds like you did just fine ... 7-8% is pretty darn good if you ask me ?

The Torque Plate is IMO, the best method to simulating the stress distortion on the Cylinders caused by the Head Fasteners, to the best end result during Honing of Straight & Round Cylinders.
and yes... I see .002" or more distortion regularily without it, if a T/Plate is applied later.
Most of the distortion is generally around the Bolts.... but it can also cause Wall bending lower as well, adding to piston skirt clrc.

As far as your question, I think the bolt swelling itself is the main goal as the top 1 inch of the Cylinder is where the most sealing pressure occurs ?
I consider a T/Plate very important to the above.
I have not checked in awhile... but last time I did, I was pleasantly surprised to find out my Cast T/Plate caused the same distortion as an aluminum head, when measured from underneath as you did.

[rednuck]

I am just trying to get more information out there... that's it... that's all.
IMO,
people need to understand that the cheaper Stroker Kits require the most scrutiny... inversely proportional to original cost sometimes.
But it seems IMO... those who opt for the cheaper Kits based in Price... you guessed it... also seek out the cheapest when getting it checked over ?

I think some convincing that the kits aren't that great needs to be thrown around as well, since you are giving so much great information.

I will use mancini racings "493" kit, a fairly common build. Eagle crank, Rods, diamond pistons, Speed pro rings, clevite bearings. Not the top of the line, not horrible for a slightly hotter then street build. They don't claim to do ANY fitting so it should be checked, I used prices from a machine shop I found online in Edmonton,AB

	Unbalanced	Balanced
Price	1795	2095
Piston Measuring and recording	50	50
Pin fitting in Piston	50	50
Con Rod small end $20each	160	160
Con Rod big end @ $12	96	96
Crank Prep	135	135
Balance	400	?0?
Total	2686	2586

I probably missed some things but, now you saved $100 in the end! and have the same rotating assembly. Now if any work was done, or to be safe the balance should be checked anyway's so you are LOSING money. Some of those costs could be cheaper, some more expensive depending on what is wrong in either assembly. You could really save more money by shopping better for individual parts then buying a stroker kit. Ex. 4.15 cranks with 0.010 undersized mains are $150 cheaper then normal, on a light application 0.010 probably won't make a difference, They cut 440 forged cranks down .125 to fit in a 400. You would of saved $50 and come out with something you can have confidence in.

[Challenger340]

Gotta wonder about Edmonchuk ?
Fully 60% of my Business, gets shipped all the way out here from Edmonton guys ! Track Champ is one of my guys as well.

By the hour, which is the fairest way....
Pin-Fitting in Piston is $50 or about a 1/2 hr.
Pin-Fitting in Rod small ends is only another $20., because the Machine/Gauge is already setup from doing the Pistons, and only takes another 10 minutes ?
Measure Pistons and Record, 1/2 hr
Resize Big Ends complete, includes "setting" Bearing Clrc., and Record. (Must bring Crank & Bearings... I have to be able to Mic the Crank to know sizes to "set" to) 1.5 Hrs or $135.
Crank Grinding is $270. However it is guaranteed 2 "ten-thousandths" of 1 inch Straight & Round... or I will BUY you a NEW CRANK !
Balancing strictly by the Hour. If it's good and doesn't need that much = it's cheap. If it is a pain in the Ass = it costs. EAGLE ain't usually bad to Balance... it's just their Crank Grinding itself that sucks...IMO

$1,795. seems high for an EAGLE 493 Kit ?? When did you price ? our dollar has dropped, but still seems high ?
If you wish to pm me the Part Number, I'll tell you what W.D. is F.O.B. Delivered to Calgary is... as I am W.D. with Eagle in Tennessee.

[rednuck]

I just pulled it straight of Mancini Racings website for an example. I think its Eagles #21206 kit with different pistons, probably slightly overpriced. Your pricing just further shows that it's just not worth cheaping out and using a stroker kit out of the box, buy the individual parts and take it to your trusted machine shop. 

[RAC95054]

What is the going rate to just disassemble, clean, mag, install bronze valve guides, valve job (non-racing) and reassemble (checking springs) a set of stock (906) heads?   I was guessing something close to $400 based on what I've read here.

[femtnmax]

I just posted my 906 head rebuild cost on the CC forum.  I live at 5200 feet elevation and a heated intake manifold really helps for an all day any day good running engine.

Cost to rebuild a pair of Mopar 906 heads is as follows:
Labor
resurface 2 heads         $135
install & hone thinwall guides       64
install hard exhaust seats       80
4 angle valve job           135
clean  & mag check             30
     Labor total  $444
Parts
Ferrea F5054 intake valve (2.08 diam)           13.17 each = 105
Ferrea F5053 exhaust valve  (1.81 diam)   13.17 each = 105
Thinwall guides   3.00 each =      48
Exhaust seats      10.00 each =    80
Valve springs, CompCam 911-16    87
Spring retainers, 7*, Crower 87063-16   68      
Valve locks, 7*, Crane 99098-1      32
Valve stem seals, positive PFT       20
     Parts total  $545
           Total 906 head rebuild cost  $989

[ACUDANUT]

Getting a head job ain't cheap. 

[Challenger340]

I just posted my 906 head rebuild cost on the CC forum.  I live at 5200 feet elevation and a heated intake manifold really helps for an all day any day good running engine.

Cost to rebuild a pair of Mopar 906 heads is as follows:
Labor
resurface 2 heads         $135
install & hone thinwall guides       64
install hard exhaust seats       80
4 angle valve job           135
clean  & mag check             30
     Labor total  $444
Parts
Ferrea F5054 intake valve (2.08 diam)           13.17 each = 105
Ferrea F5053 exhaust valve  (1.81 diam)   13.17 each = 105
Thinwall guides   3.00 each =      48
Exhaust seats      10.00 each =    80
Valve springs, CompCam 911-16    87
Spring retainers, 7*, Crower 87063-16   68      
Valve locks, 7*, Crane 99098-1      32
Valve stem seals, positive PFT       20
     Parts total  $545
           Total 906 head rebuild cost  $989

That seems fairly cheap ?
Nonetheless, and as is the purpose of this thread originally, to clarify "Engine Rebuilding Costs".. it is important to distinguish between just WHAT is being done in Cost Comparisons... APPLES TO APPLES so to speak ?

But for example here on your "stock" Head Rebuild, on "Honed" Guides ?
I am sure the Shop told you "honed" guides ? but this can be misleading.

They INSTALLED 16 guides, and HONED the 16 guides for $64. ?
or,
did they just run the broach through at "final desired size", with a quick flex-HONE through during final wash, as is normal thinwall installation procedure ?
This method usually yields .002" to .0025" Valve to Guide clrc at best, but sufficient for a "Stock" rebuild and Angles.

as opposed to....
** REAL "honing" of a thinwall bronze liner... involves broaching down .002" from final... then using an actual lateral controlled Hone, under flowing MAN honing oil, and using a small bore gauge as you go... to then "fit" the Valve Stems HONED to about .001" clearance very straight & round, with an internal micro finish to hold lubrication. This type of job LASTS much longer with the tighter initial clearance, for literally many tens of thousands of miles, and provides sufficient concentricity to run high flow Valve Seat Angles conduscive to a performance build.
But Alas, this procedure usually takes 2-3 Hours to accomplish by itself ?  I don't believe you got THAT for the $64... little-lown the Broaching installation included ?
just sayin...
it is important to differentiate "Apples to Apples" when comparing prices ? One is a TRUE "Honed" Guide... the other... well.. the word "Hone" is used more for descriptive "benefit" without real result.... just prevents confusion.
IMO,
For $64 you got a std Broach Guideliner install... with a flex-Hone brush during final wash...Standard Thinwall Liner Install procedure, for stock rebuilds
NOT,
a HONE-FIT GUIDE, conduscive for High Flow Performance Valve Seat Angles.

[RAC95054]

Thanks, Challenger340.  I was pretty close, minus the valves/springs replacement and resurfacing.  So going all out in about a grand.  Does it then become worth paying a bit more for some aluminum heads, or will there still be the cost of a shop looking them over/assembling?

[69wannabe]

It would be better in my opinion to go ahead and do the eddy RPM heads and have a better flowing and alot lighter set of heads too!!

[BB14404SPD]

I just posted my 906 head rebuild cost on the CC forum.  I live at 5200 feet elevation and a heated intake manifold really helps for an all day any day good running engine.

Cost to rebuild a pair of Mopar 906 heads is as follows:
Labor
resurface 2 heads         $135
install & hone thinwall guides       64
install hard exhaust seats       80
4 angle valve job           135
clean  & mag check             30
     Labor total  $444
Parts
Ferrea F5054 intake valve (2.08 diam)           13.17 each = 105
Ferrea F5053 exhaust valve  (1.81 diam)   13.17 each = 105
Thinwall guides   3.00 each =      48
Exhaust seats      10.00 each =    80
Valve springs, CompCam 911-16    87
Spring retainers, 7*, Crower 87063-16   68      
Valve locks, 7*, Crane 99098-1      32
Valve stem seals, positive PFT       20
     Parts total  $545
           Total 906 head rebuild cost  $989

Sorry to bring tread up from the dead but what seals did you use? Valve stem seals, positive PFT, do you have a part number or source?

[fy469rtse]

I love reading Bobs threads, Ron on here another very informed builder ,
I have learnt a lot on here, still learning, and it's fun
My next engine is starting to form in my mind
I always advise friends to read , become informed , know what you want and understand at least by reading up on it,
Wish we had a machine engine shop close to Bob's worth,
I would love having been asked about what I want instead of telling them , and then them asking me why ?
I would add a couple of things to bob prep list,
Bob will add to this , anyone spun a main bearing , chewed out a bearing , cap walk , etc
I like to replace main caps with billit , add a girdle as well,
With the torque plates for final hone , I always instruct them to have my main caps installed and torqued , stress distortion from below ,
Shop always have my intake to add at mock up stage , these have always needed machining to fit , never assume because its a new part , that it will bolt straight on,
I always try to be informed before a build , usually research up on what I'm trying to achieve ,
I usually end up paying more for prep and parts than most of my friends, but all my engines are still going,
My current engine went about 3500 just in machining , worth every dollar, ticked off most on Bobs list and a couple more,
You can't take short cuts on the heart, I've learnt , it Will come back and bite you,
Sorry for the long post , but bob is on the money with this thread 
Great thread Bob,

[fy469rtse]

I'm consulting Bob on my next engine,
From the planning stage, he can charge me for the advice
Pity I'm in another country or he would be doing it,
Or maybe he will ? , aftermarket block has to shipped from there,