Better way to check air fuel mixture

[66FBCharger]

Is there a better way to check air fuel mixture than reading the plugs? Is there some kind of portable meter to read the exhaust gases? if so, what brands do you recommend and how expensive are they?

[Ghoste]

Sure is.  There are various brand but you can get an O2 sensor and read the mixture that way.  You'll need to put a bung in the header collectors for it to take the sample from.  Quick and easy and far more accurate.

[66FBCharger]

Would it be best to put an O2 sensor in each side?

[myk]

I'd imagine you'd have to; each bank can run more rich or more lean than the other one...

[Ghoste]

I believe you can get kits with a single sensor and then switch it from side to side but you definitely want to know whats happening in both.

[tan top]

 been wanting one of these below , for a few years well ever  since fast!  released a duel sensor set up !!  , will get round to getting one one day ,  soo much easier , still  need to pull the plugs though imo to look , to see whats what ! especially if your running a tunnel ram intake or similar 
 
  http://www.jegs.com/i/FAST/244/170602/10002/-1?parentProductId=834738

[Ghoste]

Yes, I suppose that will still be needed to show that cylinder to cylinder variation won't it?  Plug reading is fast becoming a lost art though.

[myk]

*SIGH*  Every time I look at a worthy part to buy for my cars it's usually $500, $1000, $2000 or $5000...

[Ghoste]

And to think...

[1974dodgecharger]

Yes, I suppose that will still be needed to show that cylinder to cylinder variation won't it?  Plug reading is fast becoming a lost art though.

I cant justify driving 50 miles then stopping to look at the plug and then adjust, drive again with new plug, and keep doing this over and over to get the right tune.  I would rather have it in real time to see how im running on the highway and city and compare how its running then make my adjustments that way.

I plan to buy autometers o2 widebank setup and hopefully have two of them one for each bank at the collector region, hopefully, but as myk saids it all requires money here and there to be spent.

[A383Wing]

Single wire GM O2 sensors are around $25 each...the air fuel meter can be had for about $30 each....

[myk]

Single wire GM O2 sensors are around $25 each...the air fuel meter can be had for about $30 each....

Would picking up previously unmatched pieces be just a matter of installing and connecting them together? 

[1974dodgecharger]

Single wire GM O2 sensors are around $25 each...the air fuel meter can be had for about $30 each....

WOW,  you gonna have to show me a link for this setup...cheapest I can see is autometers version with 02 sensor, guage, etc..complete kit for 160 bucks on amazon I want to pull the plug, but I also want a 850 holley DP.

[Ghoste]

Yes, I suppose that will still be needed to show that cylinder to cylinder variation won't it?  Plug reading is fast becoming a lost art though.

I cant justify driving 50 miles then stopping to look at the plug and then adjust, drive again with new plug, and keep doing this over and over to get the right tune.  I would rather have it in real time to see how im running on the highway and city and compare how its running then make my adjustments that way.

I plan to buy autometers o2 widebank setup and hopefully have two of them one for each bank at the collector region, hopefully, but as myk saids it all requires money here and there to be spent.

And that applies to 90% or better of the drivers out there and is more than adequate.  If you want to really know and get the tune razor sharp though you have to put in the extra effort.  You won't have to drive 50 miles though, just 1/4 at a time. 

[XH29N0G]

Single wire GM O2 sensors are around $25 each...the air fuel meter can be had for about $30 each....

I, too, am interested in learning more.

[cdr]

you want a wide band set up,not a narrow band,they make both .

[66FBCharger]

you want a wide band set up,not a narrow band,they make both .

What is the difference?

[Ghoste]

I think its the amount of information gathered and thereby the accuracy.

[firefighter3931]

A wideband with a single O2 sensor will show you what you need to know. Unless you have staggered jetting in the carb(s) the A/F ratio should be very close if not identical side to side. I use an Innovate LM1 on mine with a single sensor on the driver side collector to tune. 


Ron

[66FBCharger]

Ron,
Thanks for the info. I will have to look at that brand.
John

[1974dodgecharger]

Do burn outs count, the ones I do by accident? 

Yes, I suppose that will still be needed to show that cylinder to cylinder variation won't it?  Plug reading is fast becoming a lost art though.

I cant justify driving 50 miles then stopping to look at the plug and then adjust, drive again with new plug, and keep doing this over and over to get the right tune.  I would rather have it in real time to see how im running on the highway and city and compare how its running then make my adjustments that way.

I plan to buy autometers o2 widebank setup and hopefully have two of them one for each bank at the collector region, hopefully, but as myk saids it all requires money here and there to be spent.

And that applies to 90% or better of the drivers out there and is more than adequate.  If you want to really know and get the tune razor sharp though you have to put in the extra effort.  You won't have to drive 50 miles though, just 1/4 at a time. 

[Ghoste]

As long as they are wide open throttle and twelve seconds in duration.

[Cooter]

you want a wide band set up,not a narrow band,they make both .

What is the difference?

Narrow band 02 sensors only have and narrow window range of A/F ratios they can see, and tend to be like the old style voltage regulator. RICH/LEAN. ON/OFF.

Wideband allows for more precise and quicker A/F ratio changes. Wide range of A/F ratios it will see.  Richer, richer, richer, etc.
kinda like the newer style electronic voltage regulator. That MAINTAINS a constant voltage instead of on and off only.

[A383Wing]

Single wire GM O2 sensors are around $25 each...the air fuel meter can be had for about $30 each....

I, too, am interested in learning more.

purchase a single wire O2 sensor for a mid 80's GM car, you will need a bung to install in exhaust pipe. Find an "air-fuel" ratio gauge from any parts store or ebay.....you will need to connect the sensor wire to the input lead on the gauge and wire the rest of it up.

I put one in my Dakota...it will tell you how rich or lean it is

[Ghoste]

Are they a wide band one Bryan?

[myk]

How do you go about installing the bung for the sensor anyway-just drill into the manifold and screw it in?  I'm guessing it has to be a certain distance/orientation from the head? 

[Ghoste]

I would put it further downstream in the exhaust.  About where the collectors are if you had headers.

[myk]

I would put it further downstream in the exhaust.  About where the collectors are if you had headers.

Yeah I was reading about one of the more pricey kits we've been talking about here, and I think they mention 12" or so from the head, and the bung has to be at a 10* angle facing upward...

[Dino]

Screw in?  Aren't they supposed to be welded?

[Ghoste]

The bung is welded in and then the sensor screws into that.

[Dino]

The bung is welded in and then the sensor screws into that.

Ah that makes sense.   

[Finn]

That is actually not a bad price for a digital read out and two widebands. I might have to pick that up.

That's pretty much how much it cost me to have my EFI tuned last time anyway. Of course now they have self tuning EFI's that are much simpler than mine... 

[1974dodgecharger]

I would put it further downstream in the exhaust.  About where the collectors are if you had headers.

Yeah I was reading about one of the more pricey kits we've been talking about here, and I think they mention 12" or so from the head, and the bung has to be at a 10* angle facing upward...

Aem has a no weld bung, no complaints from google search

[A383Wing]

If you guys do this and run O2 sensors in each head pipe, you need to make 100% sure that you have no exhaust leaks before the sensor...if you do, it will suck air in the leak and give you a false reading

[Ghoste]

That would apply to all O2 sensor installs no?

[A383Wing]

oh yea...all are implied here.....

you would not believe how much of an effect it has on the sensor reading....we had a car that had broken bolts in the head and it had horrendous leak...check engine light was on...told customer that head had to come off and bolts be drilled out to cure the problem....he was not a happy camper...but he had to do it to get his license tabs

[myk]

I've never experienced an exhaust leak before. I'm assuming there's a loud ticking noise or something to indicate as such? 

[Ghoste]

Depends on the size.    If you hear what sounds like one of those water sprinklers all the time but you aren't driving past them, thats a good sign.

[myk]

Depends on the size.    If you hear what sounds like one of those water sprinklers all the time but you aren't driving past them, thats a good sign.

Got a friend with a '76 Skylark that has a heavy ticking noise because he can't get the exhaust manifold to seal up right; I figure it can't get any worse than that condition...

[Kern Dog]

I have an AEM wideband setup in the Charger. This thing has really opened my eyes as to how far out of whack your fuel curve can be without even knowing it.
I used to guage my air/fuel ratio by the smell of the exhaust as well as the color. I looked at plugs too. I thought my car was running close to the ideal 14.7 at cruise and 13.0 at WOT......THEN I installed the guage and drove the car. I was miles off! The car was dipping into the 11.0 range at cruise and WOT. I've been tuning the car here and there with the guage in place and hope to get it dialed in. Each change to the engine affects the readings though...I added a Rev-N-Nator ECU and the numbers moved around. I added an H pipe and they moved again. each time I have to change jets, adjust the idle mixture screws, adjust the timing and idle speed.....

[myk]

I have an AEM wideband setup in the Charger. This thing has really opened my eyes as to how far out of whack your fuel curve can be without even knowing it.
I used to guage my air/fuel ratio by the smell of the exhaust as well as the color. I looked at plugs too. I thought my car was running close to the ideal 14.7 at cruise and 13.0 at WOT......THEN I installed the guage and drove the car. I was miles off! The car was dipping into the 11.0 range at cruise and WOT. I've been tuning the car here and there with the guage in place and hope to get it dialed in. Each change to the engine affects the readings though...I added a Rev-N-Nator ECU and the numbers moved around. I added an H pipe and they moved again. each time I have to change jets, adjust the idle mixture screws, adjust the timing and idle speed.....

Yup, sensors are the only way to go if you're seeking a true tune.  A setup like yours is definitely on my to-do list...

[Stretch]

I've been thinking about picking up the Innovative Motorsports LM2. I have seen some good reviews and lots of bad reviews. Have any of you used or own the LM2? I would like to know if the bad reviews have more to do with operator error rather than quality of the product.

I have seen nothing but good reviews on the LM1 but it looks like the LM1 is no longer available. They do pop up used now and then but the sell for new lm2 prices.

Thanks
Jason

[375instroke]

I got the Innovate wide band for our racecar, an '86 Mustang, which is fuel injected.  Includes the gauge, sensor, harness, bung, and different faces and bezels.  It also has an output to simulate the narrow band sensor the stock computer is looking for, and a data logging connection.  14.7 at idle and cruise, but at WOT, it was 10.3:1.  We had to pit for fuel 20 minutes earlier than the other cars we were up against.  Since we can't reprogram the computer, we dropped the pressure down, and it's 13.3:1 at WOT, and still 14.7 at cruise and idle, and no more black soot.  Still use too much gas.  Went from 360 gallons in 36 hours, to 140 in 14 hours at the last race.  I would have thought we'd use a lot less gas per hour.  Still, at least the ratio's correct now.

[myk]

I got the Innovate wide band for our racecar, an '86 Mustang, which is fuel injected.  Includes the gauge, sensor, harness, bung, and different faces and bezels.  It also has an output to simulate the narrow band sensor the stock computer is looking for, and a data logging connection.  14.7 at idle and cruise, but at WOT, it was 10.3:1.  We had to pit for fuel 20 minutes earlier than the other cars we were up against.  Since we can't reprogram the computer, we dropped the pressure down, and it's 13.3:1 at WOT, and still 14.7 at cruise and idle, and no more black soot.  Still use too much gas.  Went from 360 gallons in 36 hours, to 140 in 14 hours at the last race.  I would have thought we'd use a lot less gas per hour.  Still, at least the ratio's correct now.

Wow, that Innovate set paid for itself.  I will definitely have to put this set on my list for consideration...

[green69rt]

   Think I'll save this thread for later.  Good info!

[mhinders]

Personally I like the Innovate MTX-L wide band lambda sensor. I can run it standalone with it's own analog gauge, I can connect it to a laptop for data display, data logging, reprogramming, I can connect it to the engine management system for supplying data to the ECU.
I addition, with the laptop, I can re-program it for different fuels...nitro, ethanol blends, gasoline etc. etc.