Engine rebuild, what should I do?

[2Luke2]

I don't know what labor costs, but we build or 507 stroker for around 6-7k and the only two old parts on the motor are the block and oil pan. Every single other piece was replaced. All forged and name brand down to the arp bolts for everything. That's also including machine work... hot tank, magnaflux, decking the block, boring and honing the cylinders, etc. So I would look for another shop or ship it over to the springs and we will help you out lol...

[fy469rtse]

Have you got a FSM, lots of good mopar specific motor repair and after market books on how to do, diagnose your engines condition first so you know what's ill in your current engine, keep looking , big city ,
Put another post on here for members to help locate some else in your area to help

[heyoldguy]

I think you need to do some more research before commiting to this course of action. Tell other shops what you desire and get more quotes. $18,000 dollars is a big investment.

The price for what is being done isn't too excessive for California. But if all you desire is 400 HP with a 440 you don't need a 505 stroker.

[erlendch]

Great input guys. What's FSM tho?

[Troy]

Troy, tax was $978.81

Cuda Ken

And freight was $450 for a total of $1428.41. I said "nearly $1,500 in tax and freight".

There are 2 points there:
1. It's not an $18k engine as there's over $7,300 in labor, freight and tax.
2. It won't be any more expensive to ship a completed assembly AND it will reduce the tax significantly.

If you "want your cake and eat it too" then look for the line item that can disappear without affecting the final product. Either pay tax or pay shipping but not both! I'm sure there's still tax on labor so if the labor moves elsewhere it also reduces the tax AND there's less labor overall because the engine builder isn't wasting time on parts that aren't going to be used.

Now, if I were buying a "replacement" long block I'd be saving money by reusing parts that are currently on the engine (cost to check/recondition is generally less than buying new - but not in the case of heads if you're trying to gain performance). However, if I'm spending a little over $18k on just the engine it better all be new!

Troy

[Troy]

Great input guys. What's FSM tho?

Factory Service Manual. Available in print (reproduction) or on CD-ROM.

Troy

[fy469rtse]

You could google find this book also, how to rebuild big block mopar engines, by don taylor, covers a lot of stuff in more simpler terms for the novice mechanic, covers how to do engine inspection, lots of photos as well to help you, covers a lot of stuff mainly to do with the engine , step by steps ,
Tackle it, you will know a lot more about your car then before 

[Challenger340]

$6,999. looks pretty attractive at a glance ?
just keep in mind the stuff required to make it a running Engine, and as with all of them, it might be better to get the actual complete and DYNO'd version directly from ATK which starts at $8,999 plus what ?... I don't know ?

Anyways, on the $6,999. version seen here,
http://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/hpe-hp47/overview/make/plymouth
you still need;
* Intermediate Shaft
* Distributor
* Plugs & Wires
* Harmonic Balancer(supposedly a "balanced" Engine, but how this is done properly without the Balancer escapes me)
* Flexplate... same as above.
* Fuel pump Pushrod
* Fuel Pump
* Dipstick & Tube
* V/C Breathers
* Water Pump Housing
* Water Pump & Bolts
* Intake Manifold & Bolts
* Valley Pan & End Rails / Bolts
* Carburetor
* Carb Studs / Gasket

And of course if you expect any kind of Warranty coverage down the road, in the event of unfortunate circumstance, be prepared to prove NEW parts used in anything Engine 'Support' Systems related.... Fuel, Cooling, Ignition, yada, yada,..... and of course....all work completed according to SAE certified technician standards, including Cam Break-in records, Tuning, etc., etc.
That's why I believe FAR BETTER to purchase this Engine COMPLETED and DYNO'd by them.... ready to drop in.... which I suspect is $10K or better, Plus Freight.

[67tbird]

http://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/specific_search/ATK%20Engines  I'd take the reports with a grain of salt, 5 complaints with the number of engines they are selling.

[cudaken]

 340, are we talking about this engine?

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/hpe-hp47c/overview/make/plymouth

I don't see where it was DYNO'd?

Ken

[Challenger340]

340, are we talking about this engine?

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/hpe-hp47c/overview/make/plymouth

I don't see where it was DYNO'd?

Ken

yeah..... I think that is close to the same one over on their Site ?
But no it is NOT Dyno'd for the $8,999.  
but,
I would ask them how much DYNO "Tested" prior for delivery ?... to PROVE the HP, which I am guessing at the $10K ?
just because ONE made that... ONE time.. does NOT mean ALL will make that ?
especially since...
here is the same Engine from ATK advertised at only 469 hp
http://engineguy.com/performance-2/atkhp47-chrysler-440-edelbrock-engine-package-469-hp.html

I wonder how the others are now supposedly 520HP ?
NO Head porting claimed... same Cam... what magic for the extra 50 hp ?... but I digress ?

I also see it is a "Nodular" Steel Crank ?.... Never did understand that one.... CAST ?... Steel ?
I always thought STEEL had a controlled grain structure.... how the hell do you control the molecular carbon structure pouring a liquid in a Mold ? As it cools it goes where-ever it wants on it's own ?
I am gonna check who makes that Crank and for how much ?

[XH29N0G]

Challenger340,  my  I really appreciate the time you (and others) have taken here and elsewhere to explain what goes into building a good engine and what one can look for to sort out good from bad or just passable.  I also appreciate the point made about the dyno as a test and a break in as a key part of the whole process.  I do not know where the engine I had build stands in the whole scheme of engines, but when I went through this process, I followed the advice I saw about having it put on a dyno and broken in exactly because of these types of threads on this forum.  I am glad I did.   

[firefighter3931]

Some good points made regarding dyno testing a fresh rebuild. Any reputable shop that's assembling a performance build should sell you an engine that has been properly broken in. You will know that the engine is ready to go and know how much power it's making. 

Assuming that they spend a little time while it's strapped down to the pump ; your timing & fuel curves should be pretty well dialed in for optimal performance once installed in the car 


Ron

[Challenger340]

Challenger340,  my  I really appreciate the time you (and others) have taken here and elsewhere to explain what goes into building a good engine and what one can look for to sort out good from bad or just passable.  I also appreciate the point made about the dyno as a test and a break in as a key part of the whole process.  I do not know where the engine I had build stands in the whole scheme of engines, but when I went through this process, I followed the advice I saw about having it put on a dyno and broken in exactly because of these types of threads on this forum.  I am glad I did.   

I am GLAD yours worked out well !
It is sometimes a very tough pill for many to swallow, even entertaining spending the time & money to get their engine Dyno'd, after their Engine is completed somewhere... anywhere, and having already spent a ton purchasing it, or getting it built ?
However, it is the RIGHT THING TO DO and saves headaches !

The problem for me personally, is I am IN the Business.
The absolute nightmares I get contacting me these days, or worse showing up at the Shop, are ASTOUNDING !
I do feel sorry for people... but what the heck am I supposed to do AFTER THE FACT... when these failed projects show up here in various states of poor running, spun bearings, oil burning or leaks, no power, or just general problems requiring dis-assembly, re-work and re-assembly ?

It has gotten to the point... that my Shop now has a reputation as somewhat of a very expensive "Janitorial Service" cleaning up and repairing failed Engine projects done elsewhere ?
I mean what can I do ?
Fix it for free because I feel sorry for the Guy ?
And invariably....
I get questioned later about my repair Billings for fixing stuff..... that turns into a bunch of bad blood and finger pointing back at the original Builder ?

It's gotten so bad... my policy has pretty much become... if it wasn't BUILT here... it won't be getting FIXED here.
All I will entertain is NEW builds... with just a verbal... I will LOOK at various parts and assess suitability for re-use on a time basis.

Then, I get sucked in again as a "favor", to just "have a look" and figure out what's wrong !

Here's the latest NIGHTMARE !
605 Cubic Inch HEMI
$53,000 Spent on it already ... Building it elsewhere.... it has made 9 passes ? at the track, over 5 years, and been apart 4 or 6 times ? getting fixed in the process
Now... it gets sent all the way out here to me ?(because I was too expensive originally @ $35K Dyno'd in the first place 5 yrs ago), to wave some kind of Magic Fawking Wand and make it all better ?
FAWKING MESS !
 

[ACUDANUT]

That's cool. But I would pass at that price.

[Calif240]

That is WAY high... I just had my engine rebuilt by a professional engine builder who builds lots of the engines for competition guys here in Indy. I had an engine block and thats about it, everything else was brand new. Here are the specs for mine and what all I got as well as approx cost:

440 Block (provided), Machine work (+0.030), align honed, balanced rotating assembly, Brand new Crank from 440 Source, Brand new Ross Pistons, Comp Hydraulic Cam, Scorpion Lifters, Re-machined 906 heads with new valves, New RPM intake, New fuel pump, New Oil pump, Cloyes timing chain and set, FluidDampr. I'm sure I've left off a few things but I was pretty happy.

My engine assembly cost $1300, my parts that I bought ended up being around $7,000 when all was said and done. I sourced 98% of everything from Summit and 440 Source.

If you're near Indy or within a decent area, glad to give you the builders name.

Hope this helps.

Terry

[erlendch]

I believe the main issues where in the head, and I'm leaning against just doing a cylinder head and cam replacement job.

Here is what the guy at garage told me:
'Here is the engine leak down now that the heads are off the car (this was done cold, a fresh engine cold would be 6% or less)
#1]     7%
#2]   10%
#3]   12%
#4]     8%
#5]   14%
#6]     4%
#7]   14%
#8]     8%'

What is your take on those numbers?

Thanks!

[cudaken]

Here is what the guy at garage told me:
'Here is the engine leak down now that the heads are off the car (this was done cold, a fresh engine cold would be 6% or less)
#1]     7%
#2]   10%
#3]   12%
#4]     8%
#5]   14%
#6]     4%
#7]   14%
#8]     8%'

What is your take on those numbers?

Thanks!

  Main thing I a wondering is Is how they did a leak down test with the heads off? 

Ken

[firefighter3931]

  Main thing I a wondering is Is how they did a leak down test with the heads off? 

Ken

I'm guessing they sealed the deck with a plate that has threaded holes over every cylinder to plumb the pressure tester ? 

I believe the main issues where in the head, and I'm leaning against just doing a cylinder head and cam replacement job.

Here is what the guy at garage told me:
'Here is the engine leak down now that the heads are off the car (this was done cold, a fresh engine cold would be 6% or less)
#1]     7%
#2]   10%
#3]   12%
#4]     8%
#5]   14%
#6]     4%
#7]   14%
#8]     8%'

What is your take on those numbers?

Thanks!

Honestly those numbers don't seem that bad. Maybe you could get by with a quick cylinder hone and re-ring ? How do cylinders 2/3/5/7 look ? Any crosshatch left on the cylinder walls ?



Ron

[cudaken]

I'm guessing they sealed the deck with a plate that has threaded holes over every cylinder to plumb the pressure tester ?

While I knew that could possible be done, seems odd that a shop where to happen to have one for a 440 unless they specializes in Mopar. 

I all so did not think the number looked that bad, but was not going to say anything till Ron spoke. 

Ken

[red69superbee]

challenger 340..whats wrong with the 605?  oiling or??

[erlendch]

Here is feedback from the guy working on my car, when I was asking what his take on the leakdown numbers were.

''
What kind of concerns me is that I measured the cylinder bore yesterday for sizing & wear issues.
This block has  +.030" over pistons in it.
Standard bore is 4.320", yours with +.030" pistons should measure 4.350".
It measures about .0040" to .0050" over that spec or 4.3545" (+ or - .0005")
The cylinder bore does not appear to be worn much so I assume that the block was honed to that size.

A typical piston to wall clearance is .0015" to .005" depending on the piston material, piston design & where that measurement is taken, but piston manufactures take that into account when calling out sizing. For example if you had a stock 4.000" bore, the pistons are manufactured under size to account for thermal expansion. If a piston was designed to have .003" clearance, the piston would measure 3.997" for a finish of 4.000". Now piston clearance can be increased if the engine is going to be generating more heat (more power) in order to account for more thermal expansion. Example super charged/turbo charged and/or racing applications where more heat is generated.

Now the pistons that are in your engine may have been a bit on the big side & that may be why the bore is a little larger than what would be considered normal for a + .030" piston.

Now the next potential issue may be piston ring end gap.
For every .001" increase in bore diameter will increase piston ring end gap .003"
With a .004"-.005" overbore you will have a .012"-.015" increase in piston ring end gap.
This will increase blow-by past the rings, a small power loss, increase the load on the PCV system & will also cause engine leaks due to excessive crankcase pressures.

They do make +.005 over file to fit ring sets, but I don't know if your engine was built with those.

The only way to check to see if the piston to cylinder wall & piston ring end gaps are with in the correct tolerances for your engine is to take it apart.

If the piston to wall clearance is too much the way to correct that is with a new set of pistons.
If the piston to wall clearance is OK, but the piston ring end gap is too big we may be able to put in an oversize file to fit ring set ( depending on ring configuration)

Just in case you wanted to know.
To remove the short block from the chassis, remove the pistons & inspect/measure pistons/rings will take about 5 hours
If you were going to go that far I would advise removal/measure/inspect the crankshaft as this will not add that much more time.
''

Any advice on what I should do here?

Thanks!

[1974dodgecharger]

WOW 53k engine that person better sponsored or something to be able to afford such things in life like that. 

Challenger340,  my  I really appreciate the time you (and others) have taken here and elsewhere to explain what goes into building a good engine and what one can look for to sort out good from bad or just passable.  I also appreciate the point made about the dyno as a test and a break in as a key part of the whole process.  I do not know where the engine I had build stands in the whole scheme of engines, but when I went through this process, I followed the advice I saw about having it put on a dyno and broken in exactly because of these types of threads on this forum.  I am glad I did.   

I am GLAD yours worked out well !
It is sometimes a very tough pill for many to swallow, even entertaining spending the time & money to get their engine Dyno'd, after their Engine is completed somewhere... anywhere, and having already spent a ton purchasing it, or getting it built ?
However, it is the RIGHT THING TO DO and saves headaches !

The problem for me personally, is I am IN the Business.
The absolute nightmares I get contacting me these days, or worse showing up at the Shop, are ASTOUNDING !
I do feel sorry for people... but what the heck am I supposed to do AFTER THE FACT... when these failed projects show up here in various states of poor running, spun bearings, oil burning or leaks, no power, or just general problems requiring dis-assembly, re-work and re-assembly ?

It has gotten to the point... that my Shop now has a reputation as somewhat of a very expensive "Janitorial Service" cleaning up and repairing failed Engine projects done elsewhere ?
I mean what can I do ?
Fix it for free because I feel sorry for the Guy ?
And invariably....
I get questioned later about my repair Billings for fixing stuff..... that turns into a bunch of bad blood and finger pointing back at the original Builder ?

It's gotten so bad... my policy has pretty much become... if it wasn't BUILT here... it won't be getting FIXED here.
All I will entertain is NEW builds... with just a verbal... I will LOOK at various parts and assess suitability for re-use on a time basis.

Then, I get sucked in again as a "favor", to just "have a look" and figure out what's wrong !

Here's the latest NIGHTMARE !
605 Cubic Inch HEMI
$53,000 Spent on it already ... Building it elsewhere.... it has made 9 passes ? at the track, over 5 years, and been apart 4 or 6 times ? getting fixed in the process
Now... it gets sent all the way out here to me ?(because I was too expensive originally @ $35K Dyno'd in the first place 5 yrs ago), to wave some kind of Magic Fawking Wand and make it all better ?
FAWKING MESS !