Engine rebuild, what should I do?

[erlendch]

Hi all, my 440 engine is in horrible condidation. It has two different heads, lifters are not mounted correctly, kam completely worn out. And the sylinders are leaking, the worst one as much as 80%.

My garage shop is suggesting a rebuild to 505. Here is his email. What you think? Is there cheaper ways to get a nice and reliable at least 400+ hp V8 that will run pretty smoothly and will last my for years to come..?

'Attached is an estimate for the 505 CI engine.
This engine package includes more performance parts than the stock quote I sent you, as some of the stock internal parts would need to be inspected to see if they could be reused.

The 505 CI engine estimate is about as complete as I can make it.
It has a retrofit hyd roller camshaft & lifters, also has different cylinder heads with hyd roller spring set up.
If you you went back to a hyd flat tappet camshaft & lifters, cylinder heads that are on E-4522-1 it will knock off about $1000.00 off the price of the engine

Time frame will be about 4-5 weeks to get the 505 CI short block to our door, about 4 weeks to build the short block (once they receive deposit) & another week in transit.

Will be about 2-3 weeks to have your existing engine machined (providing there are no major issues found)'

Estimate:
505 Stroker Engine Estimate
Drain cooling system
Drain engine oil
Remove upper & lower radiator hoses.
Remove heater hoses
Remove fan, fan spacer, radiator shroud, radiator & transmission cooler.
Remove spark plug wires & distributor.
Remove alternator & mount brackets.
Remove power steering & mount brackets.
Remove wiring & misc. from engine for access.
Remove crankshaft & water pump pulleys.
Remove carburetor & linkage.
Disconnect/remove battery cables & battery
Remove battery tray
Remove starter motor
Disconnect exhaust head pipes.
Disconnect torque convertor.
Mark hood hinges & remove hood.
Remove engine assy. from car.
Support transmission.
Put engine on stand
Remove exhaust manifolds
Remove harmonic dampener.
Remove fuel pump.
Remove front engine cover assy.
Remove valve covers.
Remove intake manifold.
Remove intake valley pan.
Remove oil pan.
Remove rocker arms & **inspect.
Remove old gasket material, clean/prep gasket sealing areas for re-assembly: intake manifold, valve covers, water pump & front cover.
Research & order parts needed.
Uncrate & inspect new short block.
Inspect & measure components.
Check piston to valve clearance, push rod length & valve train geometry.
Disassemble new heads, inspect/lap check valves, clean & assemble for installation.
Final clean parts for engine assembly
Assemble engine complete includes: disassemble, inspect/blue print oil pump, degree camshaft. Install harmonic dampener.
Mask off engine as required & paint engine.
Install oil filter, add oil & prime oil system-ensure that all rockers receive oil.
Install intake manifold
Install engine into chassis & connect to transmission
Degrease, bead blast & paint black: power steering brackets, alternator brackets, water pump pulley & crank pulley.
Degrease & paint power steering pump & pulley black
Install crank & water pump pulleys.
Install distributor, plug wires & set base timing before start up.
Install alternator & brackets.
Install power steering & brackets.
Install transmission cooler, radiator, fan shroud, fan & spacer.
Install heater hoses.
Install upper & lower radiator hoses.
Install carburetor & linkage.
Install starter motor, battery tray, battery & battery cables.
Install fuel pump, wiring & misc. parts back on engine.
Fill cooling system, pressurize & check for any leaks.
Fire engine, set base ignition timing, run engine 30min to break-in new cam & lifters
Change oil & filter, top off cooling system
Test drive with wide band air/fuel meter & check air/fuel ratios under different engine loads & RPM's.
**Make any adjustments to carburation required (goes by straight time-not included in estimate). Remove wide band air/fuel meter.
Test drive car & put 250 miles on engine.
Change oil & filter final time before giving back to customer.
440/505 CI SHORT BLOCK, 4.250 STROKE HEX ADJUST TIMING SET
A TI PERFORMANCE BALANCER
ARP BALANCER BOLT KIT
HYD ROLLER CAMSHAFT
HYD ROLLER LIFTER
PERFORMER RPM 440 CYL HEAD, FOR HYD ROLLER ARP HEAD BOLT KIT
PRO MAGNUM SHAFT MOUNT ADJ ROLLER ROCKER ARMS
3/8 CHROMOL Y PUSHROD SET
MILODON ROAD RACE OIL P AN
HI VOLUME OIL PUMP
MILODON OIL PICKUP TUBE
MILODON OIL PUMP DRIVE W/BRONZE GEAR
OIL GALLEY & FREEZE PLUG KIT
FELPRO FUEL PUMP GASKET
PERFORMANCE HEAD GASKET
PERFORMANCE OIL P AN GASKET
REAR MAIN SEAL
TIMING COVER GASKET SET
V ALLEY P AN
INT AKE GASKET SET
EXHAUST GASKET
FEL-PRO PERFORMANCE BLUE STRIPE VALVE COVER GASKET
RIGHT STUFF GASKET SEALER CARTRIGE
OIL FIL TER
BREAK-IN OIL 15W-50,HIGH ZINC, JOE GIBBS
HR-1 15W-50 CONVENTIONAL OIL, HIGH ZINC, GIBBS ANTI FREEZE (GAL)
RED LINE W A TER WETTER/PINK
COOLING SYSTEM PROTECTOR
DISTILLED W A TER
BEAD BLAST MA TERIALS .65 PER UNIT
PAINT, MISC HARDWARE & RELATED SUPPLIES CLEAN UP THINNER (QT)

LABOR: 5,885.00
PARTS: 10,875.72
HAZARDOUS MATERIALS: 40.50
FREIGHT: 450.00
SUB TOTAL: 17,251.22
TAX: 978.81
TOTAL: 18,230.03

Lastly a picture of the car so you understand what I'm investing in here..

[XH29N0G]

The cost seems high to me for what you describe you want (400+ HP).  Others will have a better sense of this.  I do not know the best shop(s) to build an engine for you, but some reputable ones have been listed on the forum and some folks here are in the business.  There are plenty of folks who build good engines.

I just had an engine built from a 383 stroked to 450 c.i. by muscle motors that I am very pleased with.   Granted I was not paying for installation in the car but it was much less than this.  

See if others echo my thoughts and also if there are specific recommendations on who to go to.  I think the most important thing will be to be as specific as possible about what you want from the engine .

Nice car.

[ACUDANUT]

I don't know how lifters can be "not be mounted correctly".  Rebuild that 440 and you will make 400 HP...Find another engine builder in your area.  It also helps to list your city (what is the secret ?)  There just might be another Mopar guru down the road to help you remove and install a new engine. 

[bakerhillpins]

As mentioned it would be helpful to know your location.

Is it the numbers matching engine? If not I would think you could buy crate HEMI for that price. 

Remove old gasket material, clean/prep gasket sealing areas for re-assembly: intake manifold, valve covers, water pump & front cover.
Research & order parts needed.
Uncrate & inspect new short block.
Inspect & measure components.
Check piston to valve clearance, push rod length & valve train geometry.
Disassemble new heads, inspect/lap check valves, clean & assemble for installation.
Final clean parts for engine assembly
Assemble engine complete includes: disassemble, inspect/blue print oil pump, degree camshaft. Install harmonic dampener.

Odd, looks like he is buying a new block anyhow?... 

[NHCharger]

That sounds high to me. I'm currently having the 440 in my 68 rebuilt, however I removed the engine myself and stripped it before delivering it to the engine shop.
If your dropping the car off at the shop and having them do everything maybe that is reasonable.  

BTW. Who diagnosed the current condition of your engine (lifters not mounted correctly?) ?

[BSB67]

Pretty car

[1974dodgecharger]

Never he could be buying a whole new engine and taking it apart to inspect and put back together?

As mentioned it would be helpful to know your location.

Is it the numbers matching engine? If not I would think you could buy crate HEMI for that price. 

Remove old gasket material, clean/prep gasket sealing areas for re-assembly: intake manifold, valve covers, water pump & front cover.
Research & order parts needed.
Uncrate & inspect new short block.
Inspect & measure components.
Check piston to valve clearance, push rod length & valve train geometry.
Disassemble new heads, inspect/lap check valves, clean & assemble for installation.
Final clean parts for engine assembly
Assemble engine complete includes: disassemble, inspect/blue print oil pump, degree camshaft. Install harmonic dampener.

Odd, looks like he is buying a new block anyhow?... 

[cavemanno1]

$18k for an engine?That is ridiculous to put it mildly!Now i know nothing about the price you guys are given there but that is just seems way way too much!If it was correct then nobody would sell their charger for 35-40k just because the engine alone would be 18k plus the paintjob 20k and so on!

[fy469rtse]

Get your buddy's together, pull your existing motor, transfer your accessory s to new crate engine $ 7500 to 12500 , that much will get you a lot more horsepower than he has stated, google a few , find one in your area, he'll just look up the adverts in mopar muscle magazine, about 4000 to 6000 thousand too much , did he include his menu for Sunday nights roast when he comes over every week, WTF he wants to keep it and drive it for 250 miles, what to show off to his buddy's , he must think you came down in the last shower, imagine how angry you will feel when you see your own car with him and he mates blast by you the other way

[fy469rtse]

Are you able to do basics on your car or better, if so time to dive in and do a lot more, think of the accomplishment
You will feel when you have done this work yourself, lots of self help do it yourself type books with lots of reference photos to help, seriously is this a known name shop, put it up here and see what feed back you get , if you buy a crate motor from a known good name source, it's just a swap, take lots of photos , label everything give it a try , start a thread with photos so we can help,

[myk]

20 grand?  No.  A stock rebuild shouldn't cost you more than $6K-TOPS.  Some performance work could push it up beyond $6K but even that'd be a stretch.  Like healthcare, do yourself a favor and get a 2nd opinion...

[cdr]

this is not a stock rebuild!!!! its a little high but not that far out of line.

[cudaken]

I all so think it is a high prices!

Here is a link to Summit Racing.

http://www.summitracing.com/search/department/engines-components/part-type/crate-engines/make/plymouth/engine-size/7-2l-440

$7,000.00 will get you a good motor, $9,000.00 with all most all the goodies.

Say engine install takes 15 hours at $100.00 a hour, so there is $1500.00. Add another $500.00 in miscellaneous still way less than $18K!

Cuda Ken

[stripedelete]

It appears to be the kind of quote you give when you don't want, or don't have time for, the business. 

[myk]

Jeez $20K will almost get you another 2nd 'Gen...

[erlendch]

Thanks for feedback. Some of you asked where I lived. I'm i San Francisco.

I'd love to do some of the work myself, I have done engine swaps in the past. But with no garage, tools or time that would not be in option.

Also note it is not a numbers matching engine, so don't care wether I fix existing or swap it.

[erlendch]

You guys think this one would go well with my Charger: http://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/hpe-hp47/overview/make/plymouth. $7k.

Btw. I am looking for a little bit more power than what it has originally, so 400-500hp, but in a rather stock appearing engine, that idle well and run smoothly.

[cdr]

call  http://www.musclemotorsracing.com/

[Troy]

Some of you guys don't read very well...

They are buying a short block from someone else and then assembling the engine and installing it in the car. There's a lot of labor for completely disassembling your old engine (presumably to reuse parts). This includes removing the distributor and plug wires - which you wouldn't need to do if swapping in an entirely new motor. It mentions new heads but never specifies what they are (although from the part number it appears they are Edelbrocks). I don't see anything about new rockers and shafts - but they would be loaded with valves and springs. It looks like they are even reusing the harmonic balancer? Exhaust, hoses, wiring, belts, radiator, starter, "tin", intake manifold and carb are all being reused. I'm not sure this is even going to work with 505 cubes!

There's nearly $1,500 in tax and freight in that quote. You can buy a complete engine from someone like Muscle Motors that's pretty much ready to run. You'll pay the freight but not tax so buy as many parts as you can and get it as assembled as far as possible! You can bet that if they sell you a stroker they're going to want you to change out the intake, exhaust, and carburetor (and torque converter if you have an auto). The shop doing the install is only getting labor out of this deal so they are trying to maximize the amount of work they have to do. Labor rates in San Fran are probably three times higher than here in the Midwest. I sold/shipped a rebuilt and assembled 446 (.030 over 440) with factory crank, reconditioned rods, Speed Pro pistons and rings, Engle cam and lifters, Hemi oil pan, and loaded Edelbrock heads with factory rockers and shafts to California a while back for right at $4,500. My cost was obviously less. Figure the cost of a stroker kit on that (labor would be the same) and you've basically got what they're offering without all the labor to completely disassemble/reassemble your motor. (I don't build engines, this one was for one of my cars but then I found a date coded engine for it and I already have four more 440s than cars.)

Just saw your reply above. The engine I had would almost certainly satisfy your needs. No point in getting a stroker. The farther away from stock you go the less you can reuse from what you have now. It is relatively easy to get what you want with a stock crank and better intake/exhaust (aluminum heads would help!).

Troy

[69wannabe]

It depends on your location as far as prices go i guess, but a very mild almost stock built 440 can turn 400 hp with no effort at all!!  I think I had bout 3 to 4 grand in my stock stroked 440 and it was very dependable and at least a 425 hp engine and very enjoyable too. I kick myself in the rear for pulling it down and doing the stroker kit in it since it was just fine the way it was.      
Your charger is a sweet looking ride by the way!!!!!

[erlendch]

Sounds good 69wannabe, but even if i dont do the stroker kit i still need to deal with the 80% sylinder leakdown. Any suggestions how to tackle that.

[cudaken]

Troy, tax was $978.81

Sounds good 69wannabe, but even if i dont do the stroker kit i still need to deal with the 80% sylinder leakdown. Any suggestions how to tackle that.

A engine rebuild is in order with 80% leak down. With you knowing nothing about the motor, first thing you need to do is get the motor out and find out what you really have. It could be as simple as a broken piston piston ring or a cracked piston. If the Cylinders have not been bored 60 over, the block may still be good.

Far as the miss matched heads, get some casting number and post them. Most of the BB heads flow pretty much the same volume of air. While I would prefer matching heads, it not like you are class racing the Charger and need every HP you can get. Boy I am going to catch some flack on that one!   

You have modest power goals, and a real 400 HP will set you back in the seat pretty darn good! A mild CI 440 (no need for a stroker) with a mild Cam, intake, 750 Holley, High Volume Fuel Pump, after market intake and headers will get you there.

Far as the Summit engine I gave the link too. Way to much cam for a 400 HP motor. But, I bet you could get them to install a better cam for what you are looking for.


Cuda Ken

[fy469rtse]

What members are in the area,  Marco your a local, get the engine out first, but I would be calling someone like muscle motors for something that has already been run in and comes with a dyno sheet, the more stock original configuration on the outside,
The more accessory s you can use off your existing motor, I would stay away from crate motors that have not been completed and ran in and checked for oil pressure hp etc, bad experience with friends several of them lately with 70 % assembled motors,
but I agree with Cudaken have a good look at the engine in your car first,
Oil pressure , leak down test, compression,

[69wannabe]

The labor just seems way off to me!! I charge around 1000 to 1500 bucks to pull the engine, tear it down, take it to the machine shop, pick it up, put it back together and put it in and get it going. Then there's the machine shop labor and parts which depending on what is there and what you want out of it then you may have another 1500 to 2000 bucks in it for just a healthy 400hp 440!! Still way less than 18,000 bucks tho. Worse case it may run around 4000 to 5000 bucks!! Too bad i'm on the east coast, I do work on cars just as a hobby and for extra cash and I don't mind working on these old cars at all!!

[erlendch]

Yea man, wish you were in Bay area:)