Engine rebuild, what should I do?

[erlendch]

Hi all, my 440 engine is in horrible condidation. It has two different heads, lifters are not mounted correctly, kam completely worn out. And the sylinders are leaking, the worst one as much as 80%.

My garage shop is suggesting a rebuild to 505. Here is his email. What you think? Is there cheaper ways to get a nice and reliable at least 400+ hp V8 that will run pretty smoothly and will last my for years to come..?

'Attached is an estimate for the 505 CI engine.
This engine package includes more performance parts than the stock quote I sent you, as some of the stock internal parts would need to be inspected to see if they could be reused.

The 505 CI engine estimate is about as complete as I can make it.
It has a retrofit hyd roller camshaft & lifters, also has different cylinder heads with hyd roller spring set up.
If you you went back to a hyd flat tappet camshaft & lifters, cylinder heads that are on E-4522-1 it will knock off about $1000.00 off the price of the engine

Time frame will be about 4-5 weeks to get the 505 CI short block to our door, about 4 weeks to build the short block (once they receive deposit) & another week in transit.

Will be about 2-3 weeks to have your existing engine machined (providing there are no major issues found)'

Estimate:
505 Stroker Engine Estimate
Drain cooling system
Drain engine oil
Remove upper & lower radiator hoses.
Remove heater hoses
Remove fan, fan spacer, radiator shroud, radiator & transmission cooler.
Remove spark plug wires & distributor.
Remove alternator & mount brackets.
Remove power steering & mount brackets.
Remove wiring & misc. from engine for access.
Remove crankshaft & water pump pulleys.
Remove carburetor & linkage.
Disconnect/remove battery cables & battery
Remove battery tray
Remove starter motor
Disconnect exhaust head pipes.
Disconnect torque convertor.
Mark hood hinges & remove hood.
Remove engine assy. from car.
Support transmission.
Put engine on stand
Remove exhaust manifolds
Remove harmonic dampener.
Remove fuel pump.
Remove front engine cover assy.
Remove valve covers.
Remove intake manifold.
Remove intake valley pan.
Remove oil pan.
Remove rocker arms & **inspect.
Remove old gasket material, clean/prep gasket sealing areas for re-assembly: intake manifold, valve covers, water pump & front cover.
Research & order parts needed.
Uncrate & inspect new short block.
Inspect & measure components.
Check piston to valve clearance, push rod length & valve train geometry.
Disassemble new heads, inspect/lap check valves, clean & assemble for installation.
Final clean parts for engine assembly
Assemble engine complete includes: disassemble, inspect/blue print oil pump, degree camshaft. Install harmonic dampener.
Mask off engine as required & paint engine.
Install oil filter, add oil & prime oil system-ensure that all rockers receive oil.
Install intake manifold
Install engine into chassis & connect to transmission
Degrease, bead blast & paint black: power steering brackets, alternator brackets, water pump pulley & crank pulley.
Degrease & paint power steering pump & pulley black
Install crank & water pump pulleys.
Install distributor, plug wires & set base timing before start up.
Install alternator & brackets.
Install power steering & brackets.
Install transmission cooler, radiator, fan shroud, fan & spacer.
Install heater hoses.
Install upper & lower radiator hoses.
Install carburetor & linkage.
Install starter motor, battery tray, battery & battery cables.
Install fuel pump, wiring & misc. parts back on engine.
Fill cooling system, pressurize & check for any leaks.
Fire engine, set base ignition timing, run engine 30min to break-in new cam & lifters
Change oil & filter, top off cooling system
Test drive with wide band air/fuel meter & check air/fuel ratios under different engine loads & RPM's.
**Make any adjustments to carburation required (goes by straight time-not included in estimate). Remove wide band air/fuel meter.
Test drive car & put 250 miles on engine.
Change oil & filter final time before giving back to customer.
440/505 CI SHORT BLOCK, 4.250 STROKE HEX ADJUST TIMING SET
A TI PERFORMANCE BALANCER
ARP BALANCER BOLT KIT
HYD ROLLER CAMSHAFT
HYD ROLLER LIFTER
PERFORMER RPM 440 CYL HEAD, FOR HYD ROLLER ARP HEAD BOLT KIT
PRO MAGNUM SHAFT MOUNT ADJ ROLLER ROCKER ARMS
3/8 CHROMOL Y PUSHROD SET
MILODON ROAD RACE OIL P AN
HI VOLUME OIL PUMP
MILODON OIL PICKUP TUBE
MILODON OIL PUMP DRIVE W/BRONZE GEAR
OIL GALLEY & FREEZE PLUG KIT
FELPRO FUEL PUMP GASKET
PERFORMANCE HEAD GASKET
PERFORMANCE OIL P AN GASKET
REAR MAIN SEAL
TIMING COVER GASKET SET
V ALLEY P AN
INT AKE GASKET SET
EXHAUST GASKET
FEL-PRO PERFORMANCE BLUE STRIPE VALVE COVER GASKET
RIGHT STUFF GASKET SEALER CARTRIGE
OIL FIL TER
BREAK-IN OIL 15W-50,HIGH ZINC, JOE GIBBS
HR-1 15W-50 CONVENTIONAL OIL, HIGH ZINC, GIBBS ANTI FREEZE (GAL)
RED LINE W A TER WETTER/PINK
COOLING SYSTEM PROTECTOR
DISTILLED W A TER
BEAD BLAST MA TERIALS .65 PER UNIT
PAINT, MISC HARDWARE & RELATED SUPPLIES CLEAN UP THINNER (QT)

LABOR: 5,885.00
PARTS: 10,875.72
HAZARDOUS MATERIALS: 40.50
FREIGHT: 450.00
SUB TOTAL: 17,251.22
TAX: 978.81
TOTAL: 18,230.03

Lastly a picture of the car so you understand what I'm investing in here..

[XH29N0G]

The cost seems high to me for what you describe you want (400+ HP).  Others will have a better sense of this.  I do not know the best shop(s) to build an engine for you, but some reputable ones have been listed on the forum and some folks here are in the business.  There are plenty of folks who build good engines.

I just had an engine built from a 383 stroked to 450 c.i. by muscle motors that I am very pleased with.   Granted I was not paying for installation in the car but it was much less than this.  

See if others echo my thoughts and also if there are specific recommendations on who to go to.  I think the most important thing will be to be as specific as possible about what you want from the engine .

Nice car.

[ACUDANUT]

I don't know how lifters can be "not be mounted correctly".  Rebuild that 440 and you will make 400 HP...Find another engine builder in your area.  It also helps to list your city (what is the secret ?)  There just might be another Mopar guru down the road to help you remove and install a new engine. 

[bakerhillpins]

As mentioned it would be helpful to know your location.

Is it the numbers matching engine? If not I would think you could buy crate HEMI for that price. 

Remove old gasket material, clean/prep gasket sealing areas for re-assembly: intake manifold, valve covers, water pump & front cover.
Research & order parts needed.
Uncrate & inspect new short block.
Inspect & measure components.
Check piston to valve clearance, push rod length & valve train geometry.
Disassemble new heads, inspect/lap check valves, clean & assemble for installation.
Final clean parts for engine assembly
Assemble engine complete includes: disassemble, inspect/blue print oil pump, degree camshaft. Install harmonic dampener.

Odd, looks like he is buying a new block anyhow?... 

[NHCharger]

That sounds high to me. I'm currently having the 440 in my 68 rebuilt, however I removed the engine myself and stripped it before delivering it to the engine shop.
If your dropping the car off at the shop and having them do everything maybe that is reasonable.  

BTW. Who diagnosed the current condition of your engine (lifters not mounted correctly?) ?

[BSB67]

Pretty car

[1974dodgecharger]

Never he could be buying a whole new engine and taking it apart to inspect and put back together?

As mentioned it would be helpful to know your location.

Is it the numbers matching engine? If not I would think you could buy crate HEMI for that price. 

Remove old gasket material, clean/prep gasket sealing areas for re-assembly: intake manifold, valve covers, water pump & front cover.
Research & order parts needed.
Uncrate & inspect new short block.
Inspect & measure components.
Check piston to valve clearance, push rod length & valve train geometry.
Disassemble new heads, inspect/lap check valves, clean & assemble for installation.
Final clean parts for engine assembly
Assemble engine complete includes: disassemble, inspect/blue print oil pump, degree camshaft. Install harmonic dampener.

Odd, looks like he is buying a new block anyhow?... 

[cavemanno1]

$18k for an engine?That is ridiculous to put it mildly!Now i know nothing about the price you guys are given there but that is just seems way way too much!If it was correct then nobody would sell their charger for 35-40k just because the engine alone would be 18k plus the paintjob 20k and so on!

[fy469rtse]

Get your buddy's together, pull your existing motor, transfer your accessory s to new crate engine $ 7500 to 12500 , that much will get you a lot more horsepower than he has stated, google a few , find one in your area, he'll just look up the adverts in mopar muscle magazine, about 4000 to 6000 thousand too much , did he include his menu for Sunday nights roast when he comes over every week, WTF he wants to keep it and drive it for 250 miles, what to show off to his buddy's , he must think you came down in the last shower, imagine how angry you will feel when you see your own car with him and he mates blast by you the other way

[fy469rtse]

Are you able to do basics on your car or better, if so time to dive in and do a lot more, think of the accomplishment
You will feel when you have done this work yourself, lots of self help do it yourself type books with lots of reference photos to help, seriously is this a known name shop, put it up here and see what feed back you get , if you buy a crate motor from a known good name source, it's just a swap, take lots of photos , label everything give it a try , start a thread with photos so we can help,

[myk]

20 grand?  No.  A stock rebuild shouldn't cost you more than $6K-TOPS.  Some performance work could push it up beyond $6K but even that'd be a stretch.  Like healthcare, do yourself a favor and get a 2nd opinion...

[cdr]

this is not a stock rebuild!!!! its a little high but not that far out of line.

[cudaken]

I all so think it is a high prices!

Here is a link to Summit Racing.

http://www.summitracing.com/search/department/engines-components/part-type/crate-engines/make/plymouth/engine-size/7-2l-440

$7,000.00 will get you a good motor, $9,000.00 with all most all the goodies.

Say engine install takes 15 hours at $100.00 a hour, so there is $1500.00. Add another $500.00 in miscellaneous still way less than $18K!

Cuda Ken

[stripedelete]

It appears to be the kind of quote you give when you don't want, or don't have time for, the business. 

[myk]

Jeez $20K will almost get you another 2nd 'Gen...

[erlendch]

Thanks for feedback. Some of you asked where I lived. I'm i San Francisco.

I'd love to do some of the work myself, I have done engine swaps in the past. But with no garage, tools or time that would not be in option.

Also note it is not a numbers matching engine, so don't care wether I fix existing or swap it.

[erlendch]

You guys think this one would go well with my Charger: http://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/hpe-hp47/overview/make/plymouth. $7k.

Btw. I am looking for a little bit more power than what it has originally, so 400-500hp, but in a rather stock appearing engine, that idle well and run smoothly.

[cdr]

call  http://www.musclemotorsracing.com/

[Troy]

Some of you guys don't read very well...

They are buying a short block from someone else and then assembling the engine and installing it in the car. There's a lot of labor for completely disassembling your old engine (presumably to reuse parts). This includes removing the distributor and plug wires - which you wouldn't need to do if swapping in an entirely new motor. It mentions new heads but never specifies what they are (although from the part number it appears they are Edelbrocks). I don't see anything about new rockers and shafts - but they would be loaded with valves and springs. It looks like they are even reusing the harmonic balancer? Exhaust, hoses, wiring, belts, radiator, starter, "tin", intake manifold and carb are all being reused. I'm not sure this is even going to work with 505 cubes!

There's nearly $1,500 in tax and freight in that quote. You can buy a complete engine from someone like Muscle Motors that's pretty much ready to run. You'll pay the freight but not tax so buy as many parts as you can and get it as assembled as far as possible! You can bet that if they sell you a stroker they're going to want you to change out the intake, exhaust, and carburetor (and torque converter if you have an auto). The shop doing the install is only getting labor out of this deal so they are trying to maximize the amount of work they have to do. Labor rates in San Fran are probably three times higher than here in the Midwest. I sold/shipped a rebuilt and assembled 446 (.030 over 440) with factory crank, reconditioned rods, Speed Pro pistons and rings, Engle cam and lifters, Hemi oil pan, and loaded Edelbrock heads with factory rockers and shafts to California a while back for right at $4,500. My cost was obviously less. Figure the cost of a stroker kit on that (labor would be the same) and you've basically got what they're offering without all the labor to completely disassemble/reassemble your motor. (I don't build engines, this one was for one of my cars but then I found a date coded engine for it and I already have four more 440s than cars.)

Just saw your reply above. The engine I had would almost certainly satisfy your needs. No point in getting a stroker. The farther away from stock you go the less you can reuse from what you have now. It is relatively easy to get what you want with a stock crank and better intake/exhaust (aluminum heads would help!).

Troy

[69wannabe]

It depends on your location as far as prices go i guess, but a very mild almost stock built 440 can turn 400 hp with no effort at all!!  I think I had bout 3 to 4 grand in my stock stroked 440 and it was very dependable and at least a 425 hp engine and very enjoyable too. I kick myself in the rear for pulling it down and doing the stroker kit in it since it was just fine the way it was.      
Your charger is a sweet looking ride by the way!!!!!

[erlendch]

Sounds good 69wannabe, but even if i dont do the stroker kit i still need to deal with the 80% sylinder leakdown. Any suggestions how to tackle that.

[cudaken]

Troy, tax was $978.81

Sounds good 69wannabe, but even if i dont do the stroker kit i still need to deal with the 80% sylinder leakdown. Any suggestions how to tackle that.

A engine rebuild is in order with 80% leak down. With you knowing nothing about the motor, first thing you need to do is get the motor out and find out what you really have. It could be as simple as a broken piston piston ring or a cracked piston. If the Cylinders have not been bored 60 over, the block may still be good.

Far as the miss matched heads, get some casting number and post them. Most of the BB heads flow pretty much the same volume of air. While I would prefer matching heads, it not like you are class racing the Charger and need every HP you can get. Boy I am going to catch some flack on that one!   

You have modest power goals, and a real 400 HP will set you back in the seat pretty darn good! A mild CI 440 (no need for a stroker) with a mild Cam, intake, 750 Holley, High Volume Fuel Pump, after market intake and headers will get you there.

Far as the Summit engine I gave the link too. Way to much cam for a 400 HP motor. But, I bet you could get them to install a better cam for what you are looking for.


Cuda Ken

[fy469rtse]

What members are in the area,  Marco your a local, get the engine out first, but I would be calling someone like muscle motors for something that has already been run in and comes with a dyno sheet, the more stock original configuration on the outside,
The more accessory s you can use off your existing motor, I would stay away from crate motors that have not been completed and ran in and checked for oil pressure hp etc, bad experience with friends several of them lately with 70 % assembled motors,
but I agree with Cudaken have a good look at the engine in your car first,
Oil pressure , leak down test, compression,

[69wannabe]

The labor just seems way off to me!! I charge around 1000 to 1500 bucks to pull the engine, tear it down, take it to the machine shop, pick it up, put it back together and put it in and get it going. Then there's the machine shop labor and parts which depending on what is there and what you want out of it then you may have another 1500 to 2000 bucks in it for just a healthy 400hp 440!! Still way less than 18,000 bucks tho. Worse case it may run around 4000 to 5000 bucks!! Too bad i'm on the east coast, I do work on cars just as a hobby and for extra cash and I don't mind working on these old cars at all!!

[erlendch]

Yea man, wish you were in Bay area:)

[2Luke2]

I don't know what labor costs, but we build or 507 stroker for around 6-7k and the only two old parts on the motor are the block and oil pan. Every single other piece was replaced. All forged and name brand down to the arp bolts for everything. That's also including machine work... hot tank, magnaflux, decking the block, boring and honing the cylinders, etc. So I would look for another shop or ship it over to the springs and we will help you out lol...

[fy469rtse]

Have you got a FSM, lots of good mopar specific motor repair and after market books on how to do, diagnose your engines condition first so you know what's ill in your current engine, keep looking , big city ,
Put another post on here for members to help locate some else in your area to help

[heyoldguy]

I think you need to do some more research before commiting to this course of action. Tell other shops what you desire and get more quotes. $18,000 dollars is a big investment.

The price for what is being done isn't too excessive for California. But if all you desire is 400 HP with a 440 you don't need a 505 stroker.

[erlendch]

Great input guys. What's FSM tho?

[Troy]

Troy, tax was $978.81

Cuda Ken

And freight was $450 for a total of $1428.41. I said "nearly $1,500 in tax and freight".

There are 2 points there:
1. It's not an $18k engine as there's over $7,300 in labor, freight and tax.
2. It won't be any more expensive to ship a completed assembly AND it will reduce the tax significantly.

If you "want your cake and eat it too" then look for the line item that can disappear without affecting the final product. Either pay tax or pay shipping but not both! I'm sure there's still tax on labor so if the labor moves elsewhere it also reduces the tax AND there's less labor overall because the engine builder isn't wasting time on parts that aren't going to be used.

Now, if I were buying a "replacement" long block I'd be saving money by reusing parts that are currently on the engine (cost to check/recondition is generally less than buying new - but not in the case of heads if you're trying to gain performance). However, if I'm spending a little over $18k on just the engine it better all be new!

Troy

[Troy]

Great input guys. What's FSM tho?

Factory Service Manual. Available in print (reproduction) or on CD-ROM.

Troy

[fy469rtse]

You could google find this book also, how to rebuild big block mopar engines, by don taylor, covers a lot of stuff in more simpler terms for the novice mechanic, covers how to do engine inspection, lots of photos as well to help you, covers a lot of stuff mainly to do with the engine , step by steps ,
Tackle it, you will know a lot more about your car then before 

[Challenger340]

$6,999. looks pretty attractive at a glance ?
just keep in mind the stuff required to make it a running Engine, and as with all of them, it might be better to get the actual complete and DYNO'd version directly from ATK which starts at $8,999 plus what ?... I don't know ?

Anyways, on the $6,999. version seen here,
http://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/hpe-hp47/overview/make/plymouth
you still need;
* Intermediate Shaft
* Distributor
* Plugs & Wires
* Harmonic Balancer(supposedly a "balanced" Engine, but how this is done properly without the Balancer escapes me)
* Flexplate... same as above.
* Fuel pump Pushrod
* Fuel Pump
* Dipstick & Tube
* V/C Breathers
* Water Pump Housing
* Water Pump & Bolts
* Intake Manifold & Bolts
* Valley Pan & End Rails / Bolts
* Carburetor
* Carb Studs / Gasket

And of course if you expect any kind of Warranty coverage down the road, in the event of unfortunate circumstance, be prepared to prove NEW parts used in anything Engine 'Support' Systems related.... Fuel, Cooling, Ignition, yada, yada,..... and of course....all work completed according to SAE certified technician standards, including Cam Break-in records, Tuning, etc., etc.
That's why I believe FAR BETTER to purchase this Engine COMPLETED and DYNO'd by them.... ready to drop in.... which I suspect is $10K or better, Plus Freight.

[67tbird]

http://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/specific_search/ATK%20Engines  I'd take the reports with a grain of salt, 5 complaints with the number of engines they are selling.

[cudaken]

 340, are we talking about this engine?

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/hpe-hp47c/overview/make/plymouth

I don't see where it was DYNO'd?

Ken

[Challenger340]

340, are we talking about this engine?

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/hpe-hp47c/overview/make/plymouth

I don't see where it was DYNO'd?

Ken

yeah..... I think that is close to the same one over on their Site ?
But no it is NOT Dyno'd for the $8,999.  
but,
I would ask them how much DYNO "Tested" prior for delivery ?... to PROVE the HP, which I am guessing at the $10K ?
just because ONE made that... ONE time.. does NOT mean ALL will make that ?
especially since...
here is the same Engine from ATK advertised at only 469 hp
http://engineguy.com/performance-2/atkhp47-chrysler-440-edelbrock-engine-package-469-hp.html

I wonder how the others are now supposedly 520HP ?
NO Head porting claimed... same Cam... what magic for the extra 50 hp ?... but I digress ?

I also see it is a "Nodular" Steel Crank ?.... Never did understand that one.... CAST ?... Steel ?
I always thought STEEL had a controlled grain structure.... how the hell do you control the molecular carbon structure pouring a liquid in a Mold ? As it cools it goes where-ever it wants on it's own ?
I am gonna check who makes that Crank and for how much ?

[XH29N0G]

Challenger340,  my  I really appreciate the time you (and others) have taken here and elsewhere to explain what goes into building a good engine and what one can look for to sort out good from bad or just passable.  I also appreciate the point made about the dyno as a test and a break in as a key part of the whole process.  I do not know where the engine I had build stands in the whole scheme of engines, but when I went through this process, I followed the advice I saw about having it put on a dyno and broken in exactly because of these types of threads on this forum.  I am glad I did.   

[firefighter3931]

Some good points made regarding dyno testing a fresh rebuild. Any reputable shop that's assembling a performance build should sell you an engine that has been properly broken in. You will know that the engine is ready to go and know how much power it's making. 

Assuming that they spend a little time while it's strapped down to the pump ; your timing & fuel curves should be pretty well dialed in for optimal performance once installed in the car 


Ron

[Challenger340]

Challenger340,  my  I really appreciate the time you (and others) have taken here and elsewhere to explain what goes into building a good engine and what one can look for to sort out good from bad or just passable.  I also appreciate the point made about the dyno as a test and a break in as a key part of the whole process.  I do not know where the engine I had build stands in the whole scheme of engines, but when I went through this process, I followed the advice I saw about having it put on a dyno and broken in exactly because of these types of threads on this forum.  I am glad I did.   

I am GLAD yours worked out well !
It is sometimes a very tough pill for many to swallow, even entertaining spending the time & money to get their engine Dyno'd, after their Engine is completed somewhere... anywhere, and having already spent a ton purchasing it, or getting it built ?
However, it is the RIGHT THING TO DO and saves headaches !

The problem for me personally, is I am IN the Business.
The absolute nightmares I get contacting me these days, or worse showing up at the Shop, are ASTOUNDING !
I do feel sorry for people... but what the heck am I supposed to do AFTER THE FACT... when these failed projects show up here in various states of poor running, spun bearings, oil burning or leaks, no power, or just general problems requiring dis-assembly, re-work and re-assembly ?

It has gotten to the point... that my Shop now has a reputation as somewhat of a very expensive "Janitorial Service" cleaning up and repairing failed Engine projects done elsewhere ?
I mean what can I do ?
Fix it for free because I feel sorry for the Guy ?
And invariably....
I get questioned later about my repair Billings for fixing stuff..... that turns into a bunch of bad blood and finger pointing back at the original Builder ?

It's gotten so bad... my policy has pretty much become... if it wasn't BUILT here... it won't be getting FIXED here.
All I will entertain is NEW builds... with just a verbal... I will LOOK at various parts and assess suitability for re-use on a time basis.

Then, I get sucked in again as a "favor", to just "have a look" and figure out what's wrong !

Here's the latest NIGHTMARE !
605 Cubic Inch HEMI
$53,000 Spent on it already ... Building it elsewhere.... it has made 9 passes ? at the track, over 5 years, and been apart 4 or 6 times ? getting fixed in the process
Now... it gets sent all the way out here to me ?(because I was too expensive originally @ $35K Dyno'd in the first place 5 yrs ago), to wave some kind of Magic Fawking Wand and make it all better ?
FAWKING MESS !
 

[ACUDANUT]

That's cool. But I would pass at that price.

[Calif240]

That is WAY high... I just had my engine rebuilt by a professional engine builder who builds lots of the engines for competition guys here in Indy. I had an engine block and thats about it, everything else was brand new. Here are the specs for mine and what all I got as well as approx cost:

440 Block (provided), Machine work (+0.030), align honed, balanced rotating assembly, Brand new Crank from 440 Source, Brand new Ross Pistons, Comp Hydraulic Cam, Scorpion Lifters, Re-machined 906 heads with new valves, New RPM intake, New fuel pump, New Oil pump, Cloyes timing chain and set, FluidDampr. I'm sure I've left off a few things but I was pretty happy.

My engine assembly cost $1300, my parts that I bought ended up being around $7,000 when all was said and done. I sourced 98% of everything from Summit and 440 Source.

If you're near Indy or within a decent area, glad to give you the builders name.

Hope this helps.

Terry

[erlendch]

I believe the main issues where in the head, and I'm leaning against just doing a cylinder head and cam replacement job.

Here is what the guy at garage told me:
'Here is the engine leak down now that the heads are off the car (this was done cold, a fresh engine cold would be 6% or less)
#1]     7%
#2]   10%
#3]   12%
#4]     8%
#5]   14%
#6]     4%
#7]   14%
#8]     8%'

What is your take on those numbers?

Thanks!

[cudaken]

Here is what the guy at garage told me:
'Here is the engine leak down now that the heads are off the car (this was done cold, a fresh engine cold would be 6% or less)
#1]     7%
#2]   10%
#3]   12%
#4]     8%
#5]   14%
#6]     4%
#7]   14%
#8]     8%'

What is your take on those numbers?

Thanks!

  Main thing I a wondering is Is how they did a leak down test with the heads off? 

Ken

[firefighter3931]

  Main thing I a wondering is Is how they did a leak down test with the heads off? 

Ken

I'm guessing they sealed the deck with a plate that has threaded holes over every cylinder to plumb the pressure tester ? 

I believe the main issues where in the head, and I'm leaning against just doing a cylinder head and cam replacement job.

Here is what the guy at garage told me:
'Here is the engine leak down now that the heads are off the car (this was done cold, a fresh engine cold would be 6% or less)
#1]     7%
#2]   10%
#3]   12%
#4]     8%
#5]   14%
#6]     4%
#7]   14%
#8]     8%'

What is your take on those numbers?

Thanks!

Honestly those numbers don't seem that bad. Maybe you could get by with a quick cylinder hone and re-ring ? How do cylinders 2/3/5/7 look ? Any crosshatch left on the cylinder walls ?



Ron

[cudaken]

I'm guessing they sealed the deck with a plate that has threaded holes over every cylinder to plumb the pressure tester ?

While I knew that could possible be done, seems odd that a shop where to happen to have one for a 440 unless they specializes in Mopar. 

I all so did not think the number looked that bad, but was not going to say anything till Ron spoke. 

Ken

[red69superbee]

challenger 340..whats wrong with the 605?  oiling or??

[erlendch]

Here is feedback from the guy working on my car, when I was asking what his take on the leakdown numbers were.

''
What kind of concerns me is that I measured the cylinder bore yesterday for sizing & wear issues.
This block has  +.030" over pistons in it.
Standard bore is 4.320", yours with +.030" pistons should measure 4.350".
It measures about .0040" to .0050" over that spec or 4.3545" (+ or - .0005")
The cylinder bore does not appear to be worn much so I assume that the block was honed to that size.

A typical piston to wall clearance is .0015" to .005" depending on the piston material, piston design & where that measurement is taken, but piston manufactures take that into account when calling out sizing. For example if you had a stock 4.000" bore, the pistons are manufactured under size to account for thermal expansion. If a piston was designed to have .003" clearance, the piston would measure 3.997" for a finish of 4.000". Now piston clearance can be increased if the engine is going to be generating more heat (more power) in order to account for more thermal expansion. Example super charged/turbo charged and/or racing applications where more heat is generated.

Now the pistons that are in your engine may have been a bit on the big side & that may be why the bore is a little larger than what would be considered normal for a + .030" piston.

Now the next potential issue may be piston ring end gap.
For every .001" increase in bore diameter will increase piston ring end gap .003"
With a .004"-.005" overbore you will have a .012"-.015" increase in piston ring end gap.
This will increase blow-by past the rings, a small power loss, increase the load on the PCV system & will also cause engine leaks due to excessive crankcase pressures.

They do make +.005 over file to fit ring sets, but I don't know if your engine was built with those.

The only way to check to see if the piston to cylinder wall & piston ring end gaps are with in the correct tolerances for your engine is to take it apart.

If the piston to wall clearance is too much the way to correct that is with a new set of pistons.
If the piston to wall clearance is OK, but the piston ring end gap is too big we may be able to put in an oversize file to fit ring set ( depending on ring configuration)

Just in case you wanted to know.
To remove the short block from the chassis, remove the pistons & inspect/measure pistons/rings will take about 5 hours
If you were going to go that far I would advise removal/measure/inspect the crankshaft as this will not add that much more time.
''

Any advice on what I should do here?

Thanks!

[1974dodgecharger]

WOW 53k engine that person better sponsored or something to be able to afford such things in life like that. 

Challenger340,  my  I really appreciate the time you (and others) have taken here and elsewhere to explain what goes into building a good engine and what one can look for to sort out good from bad or just passable.  I also appreciate the point made about the dyno as a test and a break in as a key part of the whole process.  I do not know where the engine I had build stands in the whole scheme of engines, but when I went through this process, I followed the advice I saw about having it put on a dyno and broken in exactly because of these types of threads on this forum.  I am glad I did.   

I am GLAD yours worked out well !
It is sometimes a very tough pill for many to swallow, even entertaining spending the time & money to get their engine Dyno'd, after their Engine is completed somewhere... anywhere, and having already spent a ton purchasing it, or getting it built ?
However, it is the RIGHT THING TO DO and saves headaches !

The problem for me personally, is I am IN the Business.
The absolute nightmares I get contacting me these days, or worse showing up at the Shop, are ASTOUNDING !
I do feel sorry for people... but what the heck am I supposed to do AFTER THE FACT... when these failed projects show up here in various states of poor running, spun bearings, oil burning or leaks, no power, or just general problems requiring dis-assembly, re-work and re-assembly ?

It has gotten to the point... that my Shop now has a reputation as somewhat of a very expensive "Janitorial Service" cleaning up and repairing failed Engine projects done elsewhere ?
I mean what can I do ?
Fix it for free because I feel sorry for the Guy ?
And invariably....
I get questioned later about my repair Billings for fixing stuff..... that turns into a bunch of bad blood and finger pointing back at the original Builder ?

It's gotten so bad... my policy has pretty much become... if it wasn't BUILT here... it won't be getting FIXED here.
All I will entertain is NEW builds... with just a verbal... I will LOOK at various parts and assess suitability for re-use on a time basis.

Then, I get sucked in again as a "favor", to just "have a look" and figure out what's wrong !

Here's the latest NIGHTMARE !
605 Cubic Inch HEMI
$53,000 Spent on it already ... Building it elsewhere.... it has made 9 passes ? at the track, over 5 years, and been apart 4 or 6 times ? getting fixed in the process
Now... it gets sent all the way out here to me ?(because I was too expensive originally @ $35K Dyno'd in the first place 5 yrs ago), to wave some kind of Magic Fawking Wand and make it all better ?
FAWKING MESS !