Torque.. Wheel vs flywheel

[RECHRGD]

My last  chassis Dyno netted about 370lbs of torque at the wheels.  This is through a 727 w/transgo kit, tight 10" converter and a 3.55 geared 8 3/4 rear.  Any guesses at what the flywheel torque would be?

[Cooter]

Hard to say, but a guess?
Prolly 470.

[RECHRGD]

Thanks, it's just so much is said about hp conversion from wheel to flywheel, but I don't recall anything on torque....

[War wagon]

I'll play along.....
430 tq at the flywheel based on those numbers and I bet it runs mid 12's

[War wagon]

I just noticed your mid 13 sec time in your sig. Was that on slicks

[Cooter]

Loose converters and tall tires mess with chassis dynos so bad I don't even worry with payin all that money to he let down.
Once hadda 440 in a customers Road runner. Dyno'd engine @512 hp...he puts it on a chassis dyno and calls me up raising hell because his "at the feet" numbers were only 390 hp.

[RECHRGD]

I just noticed your mid 13 sec time in your sig. Was that on slicks

No, 28" tall street radials on a 4,000" air day.  60' times sucked at mostly 2.3 times.  I want to try some drag radials or slicks this summer and hope to get into the 12s......

[War wagon]

I just noticed your mid 13 sec time in your sig. Was that on slicks

No, 28" tall street radials on a 4,000" air day.  60' times sucked at mostly 2.3 times.  I want to try some drag radials or slicks this summer and hope to get into the 12s......

That's what I thought ..... If you are serious about improving your 60ft , don't waste your time with drag radials. Put some Hoosiers on there

Very nice numbers either way!!

[XH29N0G]

Thanks, it's just so much is said about hp conversion from wheel to flywheel, but I don't recall anything on torque....

My   Torque and HP at a given RPM are related by an equation like torque= HP *5252/RPM.  This means that if you drop the HP at that RPM by 30% then you will drop the torque at that RPM by 30%.  The catch is that we usually think about loss of peak HP which is at a higher RPM than peak torque and if the percentage lost increases with RPM the percentage that applies where Torque is at its peak might be lower.  

I was not taught this so if someone knows differently, please correct me.

[RECHRGD]

Makes sense to me.....

[BSB67]

I just noticed your mid 13 sec time in your sig. Was that on slicks

No, 28" tall street radials on a 4,000" air day.  60' times sucked at mostly 2.3 times.  I want to try some drag radials or slicks this summer and hope to get into the 12s......

DA = 4,000' ?

You are making good power.  Flywheel, gross corrected hp is probably around 420 hp (assumed a 3900 lb weight).  Without changing anything, I think you can make 12.90s.  With the tires you have and some practice, you can get to 2.0s 60 ft times and that will get you 13.2ish.  Go out on a 3000' ft day and that will be 13.00 @ 107.  Plus or minus a little.

[RECHRGD]

I just noticed your mid 13 sec time in your sig. Was that on slicks

No, 28" tall street radials on a 4,000" air day.  60' times sucked at mostly 2.3 times.  I want to try some drag radials or slicks this summer and hope to get into the 12s......

DA = 4,000' ?

You are making good power.  Flywheel, gross corrected hp is probably around 420 hp (assumed a 3900 lb weight).  Without changing anything, I think you can make 12.90s.  With the tires you have and some practice, you can get to 2.0s 60 ft times and that will get you 13.2ish.  Go out on a 3000' ft day and that will be 13.00 @ 107.  Plus or minus a little.

Practice, practice, practice.  Good advice, but hard to do when I really don't want to thrash on the car at the track more than once or twice a season.  Maybe a trip to the coast for some good air one of these days....

[BSB67]

I just noticed your mid 13 sec time in your sig. Was that on slicks

No, 28" tall street radials on a 4,000" air day.  60' times sucked at mostly 2.3 times.  I want to try some drag radials or slicks this summer and hope to get into the 12s......

DA = 4,000' ?

You are making good power.  Flywheel, gross corrected hp is probably around 420 hp (assumed a 3900 lb weight).  Without changing anything, I think you can make 12.90s.  With the tires you have and some practice, you can get to 2.0s 60 ft times and that will get you 13.2ish.  Go out on a 3000' ft day and that will be 13.00 @ 107.  Plus or minus a little.

Practice, practice, practice.  Good advice, but hard to do when I really don't want to thrash on the car at the track more than once or twice a season.  Maybe a trip to the coast for some good air one of these days....

The trick is to push the tire as much as possible without any spin.

[69wannabe]

Loose converters and tall tires mess with chassis dynos so bad I don't even worry with payin all that money to he let down.
Once hadda 440 in a customers Road runner. Dyno'd engine @512 hp...he puts it on a chassis dyno and calls me up raising hell because his "at the feet" numbers were only 390 hp.

My buddy spent a fortune building a blown 440 for his 68 charger. It was 30 over 7.5 to 1 compression pistions, steel factory crank, H beam rods, aftermarket main caps and studs, cast heads with oversize valves, a mopar 292 509 cam with the 114 CL and an 871 Dyers blower on it. He was expecting 1000hp and he took it and had it tuned and dyno'd and it turned 475 hp at the rear wheels at 8 pounds of boost! It ran good and was awesome looking on there but a good built 500 inch stroker runs bout the same in my opinion. The guy at the dyno said the torqueflight was a heavy duty tranny and takes alot away from the engine on a rear wheel dyno. I don't know how true this is but he told my buddy that if it was a manual tranny the numbers would have been better.

[Cooter]

I've seen a trend lately just as with "street cars" on TV, about numbers at the wheels. Too many low info people who don't understand engine dynos and chassis dynos, all see these idiots putting up "2000 hp Supra at the wheels!!!!" On you tube and don't understand how that's done. They then begin to believe that this is common place and easily done.

Another one that I can these idiots trying is the FAST racing. Sure, Dudek runs 9's with a "stock' car....
If you look at the whole picture, you'll see there is more than meets the eye. But, inevidably, there will be some idiot that thinks all he needs is a 425 hp Hemi in a b body to run 9's with his buddies Boosted supra.
These are the ones that cuss out dyno operators for their low numbers.

[1974dodgecharger]

I've seen a trend lately just as with "street cars" on TV, about numbers at the wheels. Too many low info people who don't understand engine dynos and chassis dynos, all see these idiots putting up "2000 hp Supra at the wheels!!!!" On you tube and don't understand how that's done. They then begin to believe that this is common place and easily done.

Another one that I can these idiots trying is the FAST racing. Sure, Dudek runs 9's with a "stock' car....
If you look at the whole picture, you'll see there is more than meets the eye. But, inevidably, there will be some idiot that thinks all he needs is a 425 hp Hemi in a b body to run 9's with his buddies Boosted supra.
These are the ones that cuss out dyno operators for their low numbers.

Supra owners r just as funny, '20 dollar air filter gives them 100hp' and turning boost up with a dial in their car claim 800hp on tap as they call it.

[cdr]

mph at the track dont lie. 

[1974dodgecharger]

mph at the track dont lie. 

What's the diff between a 600hp vs  1000hp.......

[BSB67]

Another one that I can these idiots trying is the FAST racing. Sure, Dudek runs 9's with a "stock' car....

You've made clear more than once your distain for the FAST guys/cars.  I really don't get it.  To my knowledge, they have never done anything to suggest that their cars are stock, and everyone knows they are not.  It seems your issue is that you think they are trying to suggest otherwise, which of course they are not.  Just look at the rules.  Even the name, Factory Appearing Stock Tire pretty much suggest that it is almost anything goes if you can camouflage it enough to look factory-ish.  There is no suggested or implied stock body, stock suspension, stock engine or stock drive train.

Now the Pure Stock (PSMCDR) guys going 11s and 10s does kinda make me scratch my head.  But in fairness, I have not looked that close to their rules.  I think they have some latitude in pistons and compression ratio.

[c00nhunterjoe]

Another one that I can these idiots trying is the FAST racing. Sure, Dudek runs 9's with a "stock' car....

You've made clear more than once your distain for the FAST guys/cars.  I really don't get it.  To my knowledge, they have never done anything to suggest that their cars are stock, and everyone knows they are not.  It seems your issue is that you think they are trying to suggest otherwise, which of course they are not.  Just look at the rules.  Even the name, Factory Appearing Stock Tire pretty much suggest that it is almost anything goes if you can camouflage it enough to look factory-ish.  There is no suggested or implied stock body, stock suspension, stock engine or stock drive train.

Now the Pure Stock (PSMCDR) guys going 11s and 10s does kinda make me scratch my head.  But in fairness, I have not looked that close to their rules.  I think they have some latitude in pistons and compression ratio.

The pure stock is a real head scratcher. Ive got a few friends in the class. The math just doesnt add up for the times they squeeze off consistantly with no electronics. Compression ratio is not limited to stock but have to be stock stroke, stock style pistons. No crazy lightweights with different ring setups. Stock runners and ports in heads. Stock valve size. Milling allowed. Stock lift cam. Duration unregulated. Stock ratio rockers, roller ok. Must run hydrUlic flat tappet cam. So while there are some liberties it is extremely restricted yet they knock off ridiculous wheel standing passes at times. I love it!

[Cooter]

Another one that I can these idiots trying is the FAST racing. Sure, Dudek runs 9's with a "stock' car....

You've made clear more than once your distain for the FAST guys/cars.  I really don't get it.  To my knowledge, they have never done anything to suggest that their cars are stock, and everyone knows they are not.  It seems your issue is that you think they are trying to suggest otherwise, which of course they are not.

You opened this box......
More than once plenty here have missed my point, here it's no different.
The point I was making was not what the rich guys are trying to do in FAST racing, but the fact they even USE the words 'factory' and 'stock' in the class name. You, along with everybody else knows damn good and well (and I used this term above) idiots will NOT split hairs by stating that they only 'appear'to be 'stock'....
Idiots will think they ARE stock because they are low info morons like I described.
Meanwhile, someone doing all they can with a car they aren't investing STUPID money in just to 'appear' stock, gets overlooked because it 'should' run 10's with all that 'stuff' done to it. Just like when insane at the wheels numbers become the 'norm' to where if it 'only' puts dwn 360 hp at the wheels, you screwed up somewhere. I have gone a few rounds with these putz's on FB  stating Dudek's car only appears to be stock..... want first shot at what type of Dudek defending comments come from the 'idiots'?

When, in reality, 'we' know that's respectable. Think MY distain for FAST guys playing the sleeper role is bad?
You should research FB comments about 'Street Outlaws' and why they now call the cars "fastest STREET RACED CARS on the planet", instead of STREET CARS like they were.....

If all 'stock' 426 hemis should appear to run in the high tens, then wonder why there are so many out there with the same stuff running high 13's???
I can only hope this helps just a little as to calling BS when it needs it.
Who the hell buys a $2000.00 set of hemi exhaust manifolds and spends another $1000 or so in extrude honing to flow like a set of cheaper headers?? Those who are after the 'Wow' factor when the only "Wow" most see is the amount of money spent to look 'stock'.
Afterall, someone might actually believe it.
Look at the shape the county's in...

[Cooter]

mph at the track dont lie.  

What's the diff between a 600hp vs  1000hp.......

Depends on A LOT of factors. At the crank or at the feet?
How much stall speed in auto, or stick shift?
How much gear?
How much weight?
Reaction times?
60 ft times?

[BSB67]

Another one that I can these idiots trying is the FAST racing. Sure, Dudek runs 9's with a "stock' car....

You've made clear more than once your distain for the FAST guys/cars.  I really don't get it.  To my knowledge, they have never done anything to suggest that their cars are stock, and everyone knows they are not.  It seems your issue is that you think they are trying to suggest otherwise, which of course they are not.

You opened this box......
More than once plenty here have missed my point, here it's no different.
The point I was making was not what the rich guys are trying to do in FAST racing, but the fact they even USE the words 'factory' and 'stock' in the class name. You, along with everybody else knows damn good and well (and I used this term above) idiots will NOT split hairs by stating that they only 'appear'to be 'stock'....
Idiots will think they ARE stock because they are low info morons like I described.
Meanwhile, someone doing all they can with a car they aren't investing STUPID money in just to 'appear' stock, gets overlooked because it 'should' run 10's with all that 'stuff' done to it. Just like when insane at the wheels numbers become the 'norm' to where if it 'only' puts dwn 360 hp at the wheels, you screwed up somewhere. I have gone a few rounds with these putz's on FB  stating Dudek's car only appears to be stock..... want first shot at what type of Dudek defending comments come from the 'idiots'?

When, in reality, 'we' know that's respectable. Think MY distain for FAST guys playing the sleeper role is bad?
You should research FB comments about 'Street Outlaws' and why they now call the cars "fastest STREET RACED CARS on the planet", instead of STREET CARS like they were.....

If all 'stock' 426 hemis should appear to run in the high tens, then wonder why there are so many out there with the same stuff running high 13's???
I can only hope this helps just a little as to calling BS when it needs it.
Who the hell buys a $2000.00 set of hemi exhaust manifolds and spends another $1000 or so in extrude honing to flow like a set of cheaper headers?? Those who are after the 'Wow' factor when the only "Wow" most see is the amount of money spent to look 'stock'.
Afterall, someone might actually believe it.
Look at the shape the county's in...

First, I recommend staying away from FB,

2) A lot of people, including myself,  have learned a lot from these guys.  Honestly, a lot of street guys stuff is faster today for it.

3) Most of the guys in FAST will tell you a lot of what they have done.  Maybe not ring pack and cam details, but a lot.

[1974dodgecharger]

What is this group FAST and what is FB?

[Ghoste]

I still love watching the FAST cars run.

[War wagon]

What is this group FAST and what is FB?

FAST= Factory Appearing Stock Tire
FB= Face Book

[Ghoste]

I thought the question was facetious?

[XH29N0G]

What is this group FAST and what is FB?

FAST= Factory Appearing Stock Tire
FB= Face Book

I thought the question was facetious?

I knew fast, but didn't figure out facebook   

[Cooter]

FB is the only simi level playing field for those who disagree with the majority which may or may not be made up of low info, sheeple who don't wanna be on the opposite side.
That is until you get a bunch of these in one area on FB....then, it's just like a forum where you have cliques and whomever doesn't just blindly agree with the majority are bullied.

[Ghoste]

So issues are only decided fairly when they are discussed in small groups?

[Cooter]

So issues are only decided fairly when they are discussed in small groups?

See what I mean? Perfect example....FB iis NOT a small group. Neither is forum until its filled with a majority of low info idiots.
Things are far worse in smaller 'forum' groups....

So because the entire country thought it was a good idea for hope and change and only a small percentage thought it was ludacris, doesn't mean the majority is correct.
Just like when huge hp numbers are posted by the majority, that don't mean you should be ashamed about 300 RWHP in your old skool car with it's monster V8...it just means everybody with huge numbers aren't showing the full picture to low info idiots in order to gain the majority to make it harder for the well informed to attempt to post realistic hp numbers at the wheels.
See, whether on FB or a forum, if its one person disagreeing, they are an assh*le....but, when its 50 people, its a legitimate problem that needs attention.

Ever notice some will defend certain people/things even though they have been facked and proven wrong to death?

[Ghoste]

FB is the only simi level playing field for those who disagree with the majority which may or may not be made up of low info, sheeple who don't wanna be on the opposite side.
That is until you get a bunch of these in one area on FB....then, it's just like a forum where you have cliques and whomever doesn't just blindly agree with the majority are bullied.

You said, and I quote, "fb is the only semi level playing field for those who disagreee with the majority".  If you disagree with the majority, then it stands to reason you are part of the minority which by definition means a smaller group.  You then further indicated that the majority, by definition a larger group, may or may not be made up of uniformed peopled who don't want to disagree with the smaller group.  You then indicate that the small group will get bullied by the large group for not following them.
I'm sorry, but the only thing I am getting from your statement is that whenever there is a large group, they, again your words, form cliques, who then go on to push their agenda.  The last are my words but it is how I understand this. 
So now somehow my take on this means its a perfect example.  A perfect example of what?  You spoke of majorities who are uniformed and minorities who are apparently right but too scared to take on the majority.  You did not, and I never indicated that fb is a small group.  Further confusing me is the statement that a forum is not a small group until its filled with a majority of low info idiots.  Huh?  So its a big group until it has a majority of people who are uniformed?  Then what, it becomes a small group?
Cooter, I'm sorry but I have no idea what the hell you are trying to say here or how I am a perfect example of it.  If I am uniformed because I don't understand your point then so be it, but I have no freaking clue how I am an example of anything in this?  Am I part of the majority?  Am I bullying the minority?

[Ghoste]

And I'm NOT trying to be a dick btw, it's a sincere request to be led out of the fog.

[Cooter]

Ghoste, you can't see trees for looking at the forest.
FB is a huge 'forum' if you will, that has many different people who will disagree with the majority in a perticular thread..
Unlike a forum like say here, where as soon as you walk through the door talking things like
" so an import with a huge stupid wing and a goofy front nose is considered 'ricer'...yet, a RR or Charger done up with the very same thing is considered cool"
You get hammered by the small, same ole group of people.
Therefore, in smaller forums, you have those that will inevidably agree with by NOT speaking up, or simply asking questions for fear of offending the 'clique' people (majority in this example). Even though I have massive brothers that ride HD's, I have asked why they need to be so damn loud when I can't drive my car with loud pipes. Ever get the response like "Not with a ten foot pole"?
Why is it so taboo to get to the real reason HD's are so freakin loud? IMO, it has nothing to do with saving lives. That is on the rider. YOU need to ride defensively.... IMO, they like the loud pipes because they simply draw attention and no other vehicle is' allowed' to be that loud.

FB allows a more diverse group of people who will ask "wait, even though I may not like dude, he kinda has a point" and don't know or care if they offend the clique people. This is why every time FB is brought up here, it is shunned IMO.
The 'minority' you mentioned will not be the minority unless it is disagreed on a smaller forum as you won't gain support.
The majority sees one person disagreeing and they call that one out as a 'hater'. They see the playing field leveling by what was that one person becoming many, they still call THEM 'haters', but there is strength in numbers. You no longer have a minority or a majority. You have an equal number of people that disagree. Therefore, no one goes home "owned" as I believe its stated....

[Cooter]

If an equal number of people posted YouTube videos of REALISTIC dyno numbers, nobody would be forming threads asking
"300 hp at the wheels. Does this sound right for a 'built' 440?"
However, posts like these aren't regarded as popular, or attention getting. Even if they are real world and not some moron who blows his junk up just for a video.

Therefore, you have the 'majority' forming that 300 hp at the wheels means you f'd up somewhere.
The 'minority' [me] comes in and while not very popular, calls attention to things like
"How long will that small block make that kinda power?"
"How street legal is it?"
"How much money did that small block making 700 hp cost when a $3000.00 big block would made it and lasted longer?"

I have had responses like "so that's your excuse after a Caravan out runs your big block, is how much it costs??"
Well of course it is...compare real world results, not some $30k 4cyl. To a cheap big block. But low info, face value idiots always seem to be the 'majority' in these cases.

[1974dodgecharger]

damn you guys are confusing.....

[Cooter]

You know what I'm talkin bout....

[Ghoste]

I still like watching the FAST cars.

[RECHRGD]

Oh, and what were my torque numbers again?

[Ghoste]

370 at the wheels with a couple of guesses on flywheel but no hard number as yet.

[Cooter]

Ghoste, clear out your pms bro. You do chat?

[chargd72]

Loose converters and tall tires mess with chassis dynos so bad I don't even worry with payin all that money to he let down.
Once hadda 440 in a customers Road runner. Dyno'd engine @512 hp...he puts it on a chassis dyno and calls me up raising hell because his "at the feet" numbers were only 390 hp.

My buddy spent a fortune building a blown 440 for his 68 charger. It was 30 over 7.5 to 1 compression pistions, steel factory crank, H beam rods, aftermarket main caps and studs, cast heads with oversize valves, a mopar 292 509 cam with the 114 CL and an 871 Dyers blower on it. He was expecting 1000hp and he took it and had it tuned and dyno'd and it turned 475 hp at the rear wheels at 8 pounds of boost! It ran good and was awesome looking on there but a good built 500 inch stroker runs bout the same in my opinion. The guy at the dyno said the torqueflight was a heavy duty tranny and takes alot away from the engine on a rear wheel dyno. I don't know how true this is but he told my buddy that if it was a manual tranny the numbers would have been better.

Running only 8 lbs of boost on a 7.5:1 engine will be a dog.  With that low of CR he needs to be running 20+ lbs.  You can't blame that on the tranny.   Those numbers don't surprise me.

[Cooter]

Huge difference between intercooled boost and roots blower boost. 20 psi through a roots blower would be like dhoving 600 degree air in the engine.

[chargd72]

Huge difference between intercooled boost and roots blower boost. 20 psi through a roots blower would be like dhoving 600 degree air in the engine.

I agree.  I was strictly commenting on the engine compression to boost ratio.  If he wanted to keep that blower and around 8 lbs, he needs a CR of 8.5+-.

[1974dodgecharger]

I'm still waiting for more cash to put. 871 blower on my 383 with 5lbs of boost with 10.5 to 1 I just want it for the looks.