Why 4 speeds cars cost more then auto?

[cavemanno1]

Why is it there are so less of  4 speeds made then auto?

Why do they cost more then auto?Is it because less made or more fun to drive?

I know you guys prefer auto trans over there.We only start getting them in high end cars!
I know old cars with 4 speed is not as good as the new ones today but they only made manual trans over here in Europe back then as well!

[kab69440]

Supply and demand. Far fewer were produced, even fewer survived and more buyers prefer a manual to an auto.

[cavemanno1]

Supply and demand. Far fewer were produced, even fewer survived and more buyers prefer a manual to an auto.

And back then muscle car guys didn't prefer manual to auto?If so the companies would have supply what was demanded,wouldn't they?

[tan top]

they are rarer that a auto , I would say more performance oriented drivers would order a stick ,  manual trans cars with same spec engine , & rear end gear ratio  will always be faster topend  ,  
   back in the day manual transmisions are nothing like todays manual gearboxes ,  for 99 % or driving  auto is the way to go  , but for one percent of the time  going out sunday morning & giving the motor a good hiding & feeling  big block mopar power  through a stick shift !! ,    ,    dare say with in a week of driving a manual charger round town  , stop go traffic narrow streets etc , your be wishing is was a automatic  

    stick with a automatic  

 having said all this , going to convert mine to a manual trans  sometime   prolly a keisler 5 speed  



incar  video of a 4 speed charger

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7thAbUfGxw

[cavemanno1]

Since these cars are for fun and not everyday use i would change mine or buy one 4 speed!Drove and automatic and it wasn't as mush fun as a 4 speed!Mined i have never driven a 4 speed musclecar but seeing some and hearing them are way more fun!Auto trans are strange for us over here.We always had manual trans and 20-25 years ago when i first tried to drive we only had Russian cars and they couldn't be worst then muscle cars!
When i was in the army drove big Russian trucks and their clutch was unbelievably hard!

4 speed for me any day!  

[War wagon]

With more and more modern cars not even offering a standard transmission as an option you will see the prices of original stick cars rise.
Supply and demand
Most enthusiastic drivers prefer manual

Mine has a 727 for now but will be a 6 spd one of these days.
You just have so much more control over the car with a stick, makes it a much better experience IMHO.
For now I make do with a reverse valve body, manual shift kit in my auto....... Can't just sit there 

[b5blue]

  Automatics had come to be rugged reliable performers by the mid 60's. The Chrysler 727 being one of the best available anywhere. Even for drag racing consistent times were just as important as good times in "Bracket racing" so it was a natural progression that most Americans and many racers preferred the automatic transmission. The 4 speed was more of a "Sports car" option for those who liked rowing through the gears constantly. I have to admit I was part of that crowd in the 70's and 80's. I flogged many 4 speeds from many makers by choice back then, even to the point of breaking transmissions or engines on a few non Mopar rides.    Now I can't wait to get my Charger back in daily use, I'm sick of shifting the 5 speed in my Cherokee even after tweeking all the power I can get out it's 4.0 6cyl motor.
 Having bought my Charger from my friend who has owned his own transmission shop the last 30 some odd years, I was surprised to find a clutch peddle tucked under the new carpet when I got to tearing into what I'd bought. The car was his first car ever and he'd had it 17 years when I bought it 18 years ago. It had slowly been turned into a drag race only car for his shop and for two seasons he'd run a four speed at the strip. He got slower times so had switched back to the 727 but just left the peddle set up in place. (I never noticed it should have the wider brake peddle as all my Mopars were stick shift!) It was easy to find someone who wanted that B body peddle set in trade for the automatic, to the point where in swap I got not just the peddle assembly but an entire power brake set up in even trade. (The power brake had been stripped off for racing also.)    

[Mike DC]

 
The Charger was the more expensive/luxurious of the two midsize 2-door Dodges in the 1960s.  That would have affected how many were ordered with automatics.  The Dodge Coronet was a cheaper model. 

There were two groups of American buyers who ordered manuals 45 years ago, the people trying to keep the car cheap & fuel-efficient, and the people wanting a sports car.  The first group was not buying very many Chargers. 



Automatics were just starting to be a well-made item in those days, as others have said.  The late 1960s was after automatics became decent performers and before there was enough time for a backlash of sports car drivers wanting manuals anyway. 

[Ghoste]

And in the RT, the automatic was a no cost option.  Also worth mentioning that dealers and the manufacturers sales bank preferred cars with automatics to appeal to the greatest number of potential buyers.  And the automatic was worth more on a trade in, it would nearly add the cost of the option in the first place to the value of the trade.

[Challenger340]

I duuno if the 833 4 speeds were more expensive for Chrysler to produce ?
I suspect they were much CHEAPER to produce, compared to the much higher Casting & Machining difficulty for a 727 Auto... NO Comparison, so I think "if" the pricing was higher for the 833 4 spd, it may have had something to do the higher "warranty" costs also maybe ?
Just speculating here,
but a Clutch and a Stick are a little harder on U-Joints ? Rear Ends? Spring bushings ? Engine RPM's etc., etc all of which Mopar warrantied for a year ?

No question that by mid-70's and the advent of things like HEMI-J Torque Convertors for the Auto Trans Cars, that the jig was up for the "average" Guy could go much faster, and much more consistently, than most all with an 833 stick, and waaay cheaper with the easier on parts auto.

Unless you were Ronny Sox, and had a highly modified 833... the Auto/Convertor was just waaay faster... still is today !

I see it all the time with 'New" Guys I build Engines for.... they want a 500hp 'street' Engine, and they want the 833 4 spd for driving feel & fun !
OK great....
until they get their ass handed to them by a 5.0 Mustang trying to speed shift them 833 clunkers under Load ?
or,
get tired of bagging Clutches, u-Joints, rear end troubles, yada, yada. ?
or,
head to a track and get an actual 1/4 mile timeslip ?
This last one is the kicker... because to a man over the years, everyone one of them who eventually switches to an Auto/Convertor(all do eventually), they SEE the actual full 1/2 second E.T. drop at the strip, no other changes, and NEVER go back !
They don't call the Auto/Convertor Torque "Multiplication" for nothing ?

[Sublime/Sixpack]

Another thing to consider is that the automatic appealed to a larger group of buyers. Most women did not want to drive a stick shift car. If the man of the house was fortunate enough to have a wife that agreed to the purchase of an American performance car it was going to be one with an automatic trans.

Personally I still place more value on a four speed car (from the 60's & 70's) but in all reality the auto. is a better all around choice.

[Cooter]

Bottom line is this.... The dealers knew full and well what was gonna be back in their shops for warranty work.
Nobody wants to sell a stick today because of this. Even though the computer knocks the timing back between shifts to save on driveline parts. They know what's coming. Blown clutches, engines, trannies, rears, etc.
Plus, a manual car brand new was considered ' standard'. Not worth much come trade in time.
Only the hardcore racers be it street or track wanted the stick.

Kinda like the four door cars today. Most saw an automatic were ready to buy and just bought it.
Too many were ready to settle as they figured well, if this is all I get, I guess this will do then.

[Troy]

If you look at the numbers, the low performance cars had automatics almost exclusively. As you get up to the Hemi the numbers even out. There were far fewer of these cars being sold to performance enthusiasts than to normal folks needing a daily driver. A Charger was a premium car at the time so it came bundled with a lot more options even at the lowest price level.

Today, you can't even buy a new Charger with a stick and it almost happened that way with the Challenger. Americans as a whole (or at least American car companies) have decided that it's just too inconvenient to drive a stick (while eating breakfast, drinking coffee, putting on makeup and reading the paper) so nearly everything here is an automatic. Europe seems to be about the opposite. Just curious, I know you guys get taxed on engine size. Do you get taxed on transmission?

Troy

[ACUDANUT]

You know it's funny, back in the day weren't manuals cheaper ? They are today.

[BROCK]

European & Japanese manual shift cars from the 60s & 70s were a pleasure
to drive.  I tried a 71 Mustang w/ Cleveland & 4 speed.  Those Long style
clutches required a hell of an effort on the clutch pedal.  The Borg, Beck &
McCloud style clutches really do make the playing field even.  Odd that the
clutch on my 64 F100 never bothered me - but, that wasn't a performance
application either.  
I agree that auto trannies are easier on the warranty claims.  Now driving
as in the above video shows really doesn't help that argument.  Trust me
when I say I stayed in way too much of a hurry to short shift like in the
video.  Yes, even in an old pickup with 3 on the tree (it had a 3/4 race 312
in it).  
I have an 833 for my 72 Charger.  It will be a hotrod & driven as such
The clutch is a McCloud though

[tan top]

 crank up the sound 

     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqkLPXXrohw

[BROCK]

crank up the sound 

     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqkLPXXrohw

Just like that!  Made a bobblehead out of the cameraman

[cavemanno1]

crank up the sound  

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqkLPXXrohw

Now that is what I'd like in my charger! Nice one Steve!

Maybe these cars are expensive to buy and keep.Old,loud gas gaslers with a heavy clutch(if manuals)slower than a 5.0 mustangs but i don't care because they are so much fun!It's like my bike,Ducatis are expensive to buy and run they have personalities have to take care of regularly!Japanese bikes are cheaper,more reliable mules that would take you to the end of the world!But then sitting on that v twin listening her sound is just worth every penny!

If i want a car that shifts easily,doesn't cost an arm and a leg,cheap to run i will buy a Honda!

[lloyd3]

You can burn more rubber and raise more hell in a 4-gear, period. A four-speed is a man's car.

[c00nhunterjoe]

crank up the sound 

     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqkLPXXrohw

Just like that!  Made a bobblehead out of the cameraman
[/quote

Thats my car.... dont poke fun at the shifting! This is right after i did the conversion and didnt have a shifter handle. This video was shot with a pair of vicegrips as a shifter handle....]

[A383Wing]

When ordering a new car in '67.....the automatic trans was a $20 - $30 more price than the manual 4spd option....this is for the Charger that I quote from....

just thought I would share that tidbit of useless info.....

carry on

[tan top]

crank up the sound 

     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqkLPXXrohw

Just like that!  Made a bobblehead out of the cameraman
[/quote

Thats my car.... dont poke fun at the shifting! This is right after i did the conversion and didnt have a shifter handle. This video was shot with a pair of vicegrips as a shifter handle....]

yeah I remember you posting that video  good stuff , thought you made another one a bit longer though 

[c00nhunterjoe]

crank up the sound 

     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqkLPXXrohw

Just like that!  Made a bobblehead out of the cameraman
[/quote

Thats my car.... dont poke fun at the shifting! This is right after i did the conversion and didnt have a shifter handle. This video was shot with a pair of vicegrips as a shifter handle....]

yeah I remember you posting that video  good stuff , thought you made another one a bit longer though 

I did. It was a labor day cruise. Hit the gears harder a couple times in it. if anyone lives local and is on the fence about auto or stick, we can go for a ride to help make up your mind!

[cavemanno1]

Troy,

We have a combined tax system that calculates your engine size,horsepower,weight of the car and emission level!They tax the living hell out of people!
The average salary over here is $400,in England where i lived is $4000.Well that was what i was making anyway.A liter of petrol is $1.8-2 depends on the gas station.We have 5-6 highways and have to pay for them every time we are on it.I could go and on but i don't wanna nag about it!

You do 5 km/h over the speed limit and they charge you with $200,just over 5km/h!!!
Tell you that this ain't the land of freedom!

On the plus side if you do a burnout and the cops see you they take your papers away if you don't do it again for their friends.Well at least that happaned to my friend.They told him to do a burnout let him go and other cops stopped him about 5 minutes later to tell him to do a burnout for them as well


c00nhunterjoe,

Where do you live,I'm can not make my mind up about the 4 speed
Think need to go over there just to make sure that is what i want!
 

[DAY CLONA]

I duuno if the 833 4 speeds were more expensive for Chrysler to produce ?
I suspect they were much CHEAPER to produce, compared to the much higher Casting & Machining difficulty for a 727 Auto... NO Comparison, so I think "if" the pricing was higher for the 833 4 spd, it may have had something to do the higher "warranty" costs also maybe ?
Just speculating here,
but a Clutch and a Stick are a little harder on U-Joints ? Rear Ends? Spring bushings ? Engine RPM's etc., etc all of which Mopar warrantied for a year ?

No question that by mid-70's and the advent of things like HEMI-J Torque Convertors for the Auto Trans Cars, that the jig was up for the "average" Guy could go much faster, and much more consistently, than most all with an 833 stick, and waaay cheaper with the easier on parts auto.

Unless you were Ronny Sox, and had a highly modified 833... the Auto/Convertor was just waaay faster... still is today !

I see it all the time with 'New" Guys I build Engines for.... they want a 500hp 'street' Engine, and they want the 833 4 spd for driving feel & fun !
OK great....
until they get their ass handed to them by a 5.0 Mustang trying to speed shift them 833 clunkers under Load ?
or,
get tired of bagging Clutches, u-Joints, rear end troubles, yada, yada. ?
or,
head to a track and get an actual 1/4 mile timeslip ?
This last one is the kicker... because to a man over the years, everyone one of them who eventually switches to an Auto/Convertor(all do eventually), they SEE the actual full 1/2 second E.T. drop at the strip, no other changes, and NEVER go back !
They don't call the Auto/Convertor Torque "Multiplication" for nothing ?

An Automatic won't really make a car "quicker", it will however make the car more consistent over the manual, unless the driver is really on his game, and a seasoned driver, the manual really comes into play when you put a few curves to the track, then the automatic takes a backseat, that being said...I don't think you'll see me switching over to an automatic anytime soon...more like never

[1974dodgecharger]

manual is fun to drive, dont care about quicker times or so just plain fun over automatic.

[69wannabe]

I duuno if the 833 4 speeds were more expensive for Chrysler to produce ?
I suspect they were much CHEAPER to produce, compared to the much higher Casting & Machining difficulty for a 727 Auto... NO Comparison, so I think "if" the pricing was higher for the 833 4 spd, it may have had something to do the higher "warranty" costs also maybe ?
Just speculating here,
but a Clutch and a Stick are a little harder on U-Joints ? Rear Ends? Spring bushings ? Engine RPM's etc., etc all of which Mopar warrantied for a year ?

No question that by mid-70's and the advent of things like HEMI-J Torque Convertors for the Auto Trans Cars, that the jig was up for the "average" Guy could go much faster, and much more consistently, than most all with an 833 stick, and waaay cheaper with the easier on parts auto.

Unless you were Ronny Sox, and had a highly modified 833... the Auto/Convertor was just waaay faster... still is today !

I see it all the time with 'New" Guys I build Engines for.... they want a 500hp 'street' Engine, and they want the 833 4 spd for driving feel & fun !
OK great....
until they get their ass handed to them by a 5.0 Mustang trying to speed shift them 833 clunkers under Load ?
or,
get tired of bagging Clutches, u-Joints, rear end troubles, yada, yada. ?
or,
head to a track and get an actual 1/4 mile timeslip ?
This last one is the kicker... because to a man over the years, everyone one of them who eventually switches to an Auto/Convertor(all do eventually), they SEE the actual full 1/2 second E.T. drop at the strip, no other changes, and NEVER go back !
They don't call the Auto/Convertor Torque "Multiplication" for nothing ?

An Automatic won't really make a car "quicker", it will however make the car more consistent over the manual, unless the driver is really on his game, and a seasoned driver, the manual really comes into play when you put a few curves to the track, then the automatic takes a backseat, that being said...I don't think you'll see me switching over to an automatic anytime soon...more like never

Amen to that!! I was actually looking for an automatic when I ran across my charger and at that time it was a 383 factory 4 speed car. I was thinking at the time it would be easier to come up with the more plentiful automatic than to even look for a 4 speed car but I ran across it in the atlanta journal in the classic car section. I actually purchased the car from Breet Popwell who said he also had an actual general lee from the show and was a good friend of John Schneider which later I found out was all true. I didn't care either way I was excited just to be getting a charger!!! After several years and people actually commenting on the car being a 4 speed I am glad it ended up this way and it has a pistol grip shifter now which has been in there for several years and is awesome to drive!!!

[myk]

manual is fun to drive, dont care about quicker times or so just plain fun over automatic.

AGREED.  The manual may be "slower" in most cars, but rowing through your own gears is priceless...

[Mopar Nut]

I'll take one of each.

[lloyd3]

For the street wars of the 70s and 80s the stick had obvious advantages. Quicker launches at the redlight and then using the tranny to help slow the car at the end of the run comes to mind. A big block with almost 500 ft./lbs of torque coupled to a 4-gear is balls-to-the-wall fun!  R/T stick cars were also built with this in mind, thus the 18-spline gearbox, the 9 3/4 rear axle, more leaf-springs in the suspension, bigger fuel-line, and bigger brakes. Ma Mopar knew what was going to happen and tried to design around it, with a modicum of success. The fact that so few survived is a good indication of how most were used. Automatics are far-better mannered in city traffic and for easy crusing, but for serious barnstorming you must have a stick.

[myk]

Well, with respect to the 'OP I wanted a stick but they were selling for more; yes, even in the 90's.  Ironically enough, I'll one day have to spend a good amount of money to convert my car to a manual...

[bull]

Driving a muscle car is very visceral and exciting. Adding a manual gearbox to that experience makes it even more so. More fun/higher demand/fewer numbers = more desirable and costly.

[Ghoste]

I don't know if its the manual trans that is slower so much as its us.  We all like to think we can shift like Ronnie Sox but the truth is that we are delusional.

[six-tee-nine]

The thing with automatic transmissions here in Europe is the fact that its an old habit to drive manual.
In the sixties and seventies most people here drove a VW beetle or something similar with a powerplant from 1 up to 2 litres. Even top end cars came with manual transmissions like 3 litre BMW's. Auto transmissions are seldom here on classic cars except for some S class mercedes's with a 3.5 V8 and other really top class rides.
And people still buy manual here altough modern automatics drive as good or even better than manual cars.

It's changing none the less, there are more automatics now than ever here

[cavemanno1]

We have to see that petrol is way more expensive here then over there at the land of the free and automatics use way more of the precious liquid,don't they then manuals!If i'm wrong please correct me.

High end cars are automatics but whoever buy them don't care about mileage!

[Rallyecharger]

I believe everyone here had some good points about the manual vs auto theories. Here is my take on it....
1) back in the 60's/70's the automatic was the favored choice of the majority of the buyers market, the ladies/wives/girlfriends could drive the car if it was auto making the new car purchase more persuasive.

2) most people (guys) claim they can drive a standard, half of them suck at it.....hence the survival rate of the musclecar cars in general w/standard trans.  i.e, clutches exploded or smoked, engines over-revved and bottom ends grenade....

3)Majority of buyers market from when my Father was selling cars requested auto's and smaller engines for fuel economy. ie 318,auto Chargers by the dozens.  I questioned him one time long ago "why didn't everyone order 440 4spd Charger R/T's......??"  His response was that every young guy wanted the big motor, hi-po-this that bullshit, but they didn't have the CASH....plain and simple. The ones with the cash, usually middle aged guys, wanted auto's as everyone could drive it and when it came to resale it was sold quickly with no real issues of being an abused 4spd car.......   Another story to go along with this is that they did get a dark green '68 Charger 383 4spd in one day, while transferring it from the auction the young car jockey guy tore the driveshaft out of the car on route back home, he was fired and my Father started using women to drive the cars back and forth.

4) 4 speed cars usually had the shit driven out of them, again survival rate issue....

[lloyd3]

It would seem that we agree that original 4-speed cars were not all that common and that even fewer have survived. With that thought in mind, what does that do for value?  A 30% bump in price? 40%?

[ACUDANUT]

We have to see that petrol is way more expensive here then over there at the land of the free and automatics use way more of the precious liquid,don't they then manuals!If i'm wrong please correct me.

High end cars are automatics but whoever buy them don't care about mileage!


[/quote

Land of the free to pay out of the ass in taxes and having a Monkey for a president. 

[cavemanno1]

Acudanut!

I know you think it's bad for you guys because i guess you always lived there but how much taxes you pay?My wife worked for the government tax office and she had to pay 55% of her salary.Our duty fees for buying products is 27%,the highest in Europe!Now seeing how you guys live and whatever you have compare to us is mindblowing.5 car garages with 4-5 cars huge houses,boat etc.I know not everyone is that fortunate and can't generalize it but you guys are lucky!

[ACUDANUT]

Don't believe everything you see on TV.  That kind of lifestyle (big properties, boats, airplanes, expensive cars)  are maybe 5 percent of the population here in the U.S.    Most of us just have a 1-2 garage with 1-3 bedrooms.

[Troy]

Acudanut!

I know you think it's bad for you guys because i guess you always lived there but how much taxes you pay?My wife worked for the government tax office and she had to pay 55% of her salary.Our duty fees for buying products is 27%,the highest in Europe!Now seeing how you guys live and whatever you have compare to us is mindblowing.5 car garages with 4-5 cars huge houses,boat etc.I know not everyone is that fortunate and can't generalize it but you guys are lucky!

We, as a nation, have high taxes but nothing like most of Europe. We sock it to the corporations mostly so individuals get a break. Most of the people who complain about them don't truly pay nearly as much as they could under different circumstances. About 50% of the citizens here don't pay any income taxes and hardly anyone (except business) imports anything. You are considered under the poverty level if you make $22k per year or less (I know some people around the world have just fallen out of their chairs). Most states tie their income tax to the federal guidelines so if you don't pay in to federal then you get a free pass in the state as well. Even if you avoid the income taxes, there are plenty of other taxes to go around. There is a "gas guzzler" tax and a "luxury tax" rolled in to the price of a new vehicle if it meets the standards but it isn't something that gets paid yearly. Each state sets the sales tax (like your VAT) and taxes/fees on cars individually. In Ohio where I live (for example), our sales tax is 6.5% and my yearly car registration is about $50. I was able to declare most of my old cars as "historical" so I only had to pay a $39 fee and it's good through 2050. Right next door in Kentucky they pay yearly "property tax" on their vehicles and, if you live in the city, there may also be a parking fee. It's significantly more than Ohio but their gasoline tax is slightly less and I'm sure their income tax is a bit lower.

The company I work for has businesses all over the world so I get to compare notes on things like this (as long as I remember to ask!). We're pretty fortunate for the most part.

Back to the topic - I'd say a 4-speed adds 10-30% to the value of the car depending on condition. Guys buying these cars today are looking for what they *think* they'd have ordered if the had the opportunity when the cars were new. However, in most cases these cars are toys that get driven on nice days where, back then, they were daily drivers and the requirements would have been vastly different.

Troy

[Troy]

Don't believe everything you see on TV.  That kind of lifestyle (big properties, boats, airplanes, expensive cars)  are maybe 5 percent of the population here in the U.S.    Most of us just have a 1-2 garage with 1-3 bedrooms.

Yeah, that's slumming it.

Troy

[cavemanno1]

Don't believe everything you see on TV.  That kind of lifestyle (big properties, boats, airplanes, expensive cars)  are maybe 5 percent of the population here in the U.S.    Most of us just have a 1-2 garage with 1-3 bedrooms.

Yeah, that's slumming it.

Troy

Don't get it from the tv.I see the list of cars you guys have,some of you have more then 3 cars.I used to live in The States,well travelled for a year and see how people live compare to us.Ohio sale tax 6,5%,ours 27%! If you buy anything over $30k you have to pay "luxury tax".

There are lots of American cars over here but they are cheap newer once!I had the only '69 charger Ever here in this country and there is only one '68.Not because they don't like them because everyone who likes muscle cars says their favorite is the '68-69 charger!In the Neatherlands there are 59 1969 dodge charger and 54 1968 according to their club!That says something,isn't it.Trust me you are lucky!

Sorry,back to the topic!

[Ghoste]

Not all of those lists of cars are exactly driving vehicles.    But yes, it's easier to find them more cheaply here because at one time they were widely available and just used cars.  To a lesser degree, the European car fans over experience the very same thing as you do.

[cavemanno1]

The difference is not too many 40+ year old European cars are still alive!I have never seen one myself part from a '69 Aston Martin.Over here i have seen lots of  60-70's camaros,buicks,chevys,fords but no mopars tho.That says about the quality of the European cars.

[Ghoste]

They're there, just hidden in storage, the Mopars too.  If you aren't seeing vintage Euro stuff there then imagine trying to find spares for your 53 Healey over here.

[kokxville]

Well let me give a respond,i'm fortunate to have a 4 speed r/t and i'm in the Netherlands.

Trust me,it isn't cheap over here either.
Salestax is 21%,the gasoline pice for the cheapest fuel unleaded 95 is €1.73 per liter   That's $2.35 in us dollars times 3.8 is $8.93 per gallon  
Thanks to the european Union,we all got screwd and it's getting worse and worse the following years for us car fanatics  
When i think about it,i'm getting all mad about it,but let's not go there.

@ Ghoste,

[moparfan53]

It would seem that we agree that original 4-speed cars were not all that common and that even fewer have survived. With that thought in mind, what does that do for value?  A 30% bump in price? 40%?

FWIW, Hemmings old car price guide says add 20% for 4 speeds, NADA classic car price guide says add 10%. However with 2nd gen Chargers I think the percentage of 4 speed cars was lower than other makes/models, so the value increase might be higher. Take '69 models for example; out of approximately 90,000 Chargers built, approx 7,200 were 4 spd cars (about 8% of production).

[Ghoste]

And left to guess I would have said the two publications list it the other way around. 

[polywideblock]

the percentage is even smaller on 3rd gen cars       

[1974dodgecharger]

I would say the value of a 4 speed adds more than 10% I would say 30%.  If one had say 30k to spend and one saw a 4 speed ad for 28k and an auto version of it for 20k im guessing he will resort to the 4 speed with all things being equal.

To me its like asking do you want a 440 or a hemi from that year with all things being equal....HEMI for me.

[six-tee-nine]

Hey, caveman,

there is alot of 40+ year old Euro iron around here if you are in the world of classic cars. You need to take into consideration that most of Europe has an environment comparable to the northern States of the US. Only Spain, Italy and the south of France have a good climate. So alot of old cars got eaten by road salt.
Anything yes almost every car that is of a German make and runs on diesel goes to africa after his lifetime on our roads. these guys export entire junk yards on boats.

And I dont want to rain on your parade but dont just say that people in the US always are better of than we are.
If I compare my own situation then first of all I pay alot more taxes than the guy in the same situation. However, I make more money every hour than he does.
My boss provides me a hospitalization insurance at no cost for me and my family and when I go to the dentist the government pays me most of that cost back.
Theres just to much crap on our tv that lets us see how great life can be in the US when you make boatloads of money.
Trust me alot of guys on this site have to work their ass off every day to keep their classics.

This said, I'm not going to reply to this far too political topic no more unless its on topic (sorry mods)

[moparnut]

The factory 4spd cars are becoming more rare everyday,the numbers were lower to begin with.If you are looking for comfort in big city driving a 4spd is not the car. My 69 is a 4spd ,nothing like shifting thru the gears shifting to the sound of the motor.Something that the automatics take care of for you.My tic toc tac reads double but once you get used to it its a very fun car to drive.I have another 4 spd a 70 ford torino cobra,429 close ratio 10 spline transmisson.The torino has a much closer shift pattern,gets a little weird going from car to car.Ive had my mopar for over 12 years its my baby,will never sell. Not to take anything from the torino its a very quick car, but if I had to sell it would be the torino.

[cavemanno1]

Hey, caveman,

there is alot of 40+ year old Euro iron around here if you are in the world of classic cars. You need to take into consideration that most of Europe has an environment comparable to the northern States of the US. Only Spain, Italy and the south of France have a good climate. So alot of old cars got eaten by road salt.
Anything yes almost every car that is of a German make and runs on diesel goes to africa after his lifetime on our roads. these guys export entire junk yards on boats.

And I dont want to rain on your parade but dont just say that people in the US always are better of than we are.
If I compare my own situation then first of all I pay alot more taxes than the guy in the same situation. However, I make more money every hour than he does.
My boss provides me a hospitalization insurance at no cost for me and my family and when I go to the dentist the government pays me most of that cost back.
Theres just to much crap on our tv that lets us see how great life can be in the US when you make boatloads of money.
Trust me alot of guys on this site have to work their ass off every day to keep their classics.

This said, I'm not going to reply to this far too political topic no more unless its on topic (sorry mods)

Six-tee-nine!

I was referring to my country and not the whole Europe!I know i should have been more clear on that but i was referring to Hungarian tax and not seeing old Europen cars HERE in Hungary!That is why i compared Your country to mine!You guys have 100+ second gen chargers we have 1!!!
That's being said you are right it's far to political so let's go back to the topic!

If you guys could have a choice now you would want a 4 speed,wouldn't you?


OK someone mentioned that other brands had significantly more 4 speed cars made then mopar!Also someone else said,which stands correct,that these cars were everyday cars and having an automatic was an appropriate transmission!
But other brands didn't cars about it or just didn't care about the demand which isn't very likely!

[Ghoste]

Without seeing hard numbers I wouldn't be surprised if the other brands had about the same percentage as Mopars but since they were built in such greater numbers overall it makes their four speed cars appear more common.
And too, the Torqueflite was superior to the competition's automatics.

[dyslexic teddybear]

Without seeing hard numbers I wouldn't be surprised if the other brands had about the same percentage as Mopars but since they were built in such greater numbers overall it makes their four speed cars appear more common.
And too, the Torqueflite was superior to the competition's automatics.

Good points.......but I think the last one was spot on. In my area, the Ford and GM autos, especially thru the 70s, had a terrible rep. Often referred to as "bothermatics".......even from the blue oval and bowtie guys. In the 70s, when 4x4s became popular, rare to find a manual Dodge on the dealers lot......easy to in Ford and GM.

[Ghoste]

Bothermatics. 
Vacuum modulation and separate bellhousings. 
The best part is that the Chrysler four speed was tougher too. (imo)

[six-tee-nine]

Like someone said before the Charger was also a higher class car so probably thats why more automatics were sold.

If you look around you'll notice that there are alot more base model Road Runners with the 383 / 4-speed combo, simply because they were more affordable for the younger punks who wanted to row gears and streetrace....

I even considered a while to buy any kind of b-body if it was a 4-speed before buying the Charger simply because I could'nt find one. I decided to convert mine in the restoration process since it's a non numbers matching car anyway

[lloyd3]

When it came time for me to get another car, it was going to be a 4-speed. I'd had way too-much fun with the other big block/four-gear cars I'd owned before I settled down to do the family thing. The fact that my car turned out to be a Charger was a significant plus, but there were other cars that I would have considered, and I was willing to spend the money to do just that. Mind you, this was almost 18-years ago and at that time, the transmission option didn't seem to be as big a deal.

For all the reasons mentioned here earlier, I see very few of them (4-speeds) anymore, either on the road or at the few shows that I attend.

[69wannabe]

My charger was actually a factory 383 two barrel 4-speed car and according to Frank(a mopar guy I get some parts from) it is one of 74 cars built that way in 68, but like I said in another post the car had been swapped around quite a bit by the time I bought it and that two barrel had to go as soon as I got it in the yard!! It didn't have a console or even a boot when I bought it but I pulled the carpet and looked at it and I pretty much figured out by looking at the hump and holes around it that it just had a boot and trim ring which was alot eaiser to come up with than a console!! Everywhere I go if its a saturday car show or a cruise in someone always says to whoever they are with (its a 4-speed car) It's cool for the people who notice!!

[six-tee-nine]

Correct, you have a one of 74

[1974dodgecharger]

In the end we all want 4 speed even if it is slower than auto who cars I get to rev at the lights freely lol...thats FREELY.

I like my autos when im driving and trying to eat or do something at the same time which is majority 9f f9lks like autos it frees up one hand.

[lloyd3]

For 99% of us, these cars are no-longer everyday transportation. If they have survived in fairly decent shape, they have achieved the distinction of now being more "functional-art" than just "transportation".  Accordingly, they are usually gotten out and driven with some flourish and fanfare, and actually entering a public road or highway is something of an event.  If you're going to go to all of the trouble to own and drive one of these dinosaurs......go big! What else lays rubber in all four gears?

[Ghoste]

Brian Wilson's little deuce coupe?

[1974dodgecharger]

For 99% of us, these cars are no-longer everyday transportation. If they have survived in fairly decent shape, they have achieved the distinction of now being more "functional-art" than just "transportation".  Accordingly, they are usually gotten out and driven with some flourish and fanfare, and actually entering a public road or highway is something of an event.  If you're going to go to all of the trouble to own and drive one of these dinosaurs......go big! What else lays rubber in all four gears?

My car sees the highway 5 days a week......I put 200 miles plus on her weekly.

[lloyd3]

Welcome to the 1%.

[polywideblock]

don't know if it is there better or not       

their definitely more fun to drive 

     I went looking for 4 speeds and found them , don't know if I payed more because of that     
 


   love stirring my own gears   

[ACUDANUT]

Welcome to the 1%.

No doubt.  For everyday use, I want a auto...Anyone ever drove in California with a stick, when it was bumper/bumper and stop and wait traffic...I gave myself a leg cramp. I was a long 3 hours.

[A383Wing]

Welcome to the 1%.

No doubt.  For everyday use, I want a auto...Anyone ever drove in California with a stick, when it was bumper/bumper and stop and wait traffic...I gave myself a leg cramp. I was a long 3 hours.

I just spent 3 hours in traffic yesterday driving 60 miles with my manual trans Dakota...should have taken my little auto trans Shadow had I know that was gonna happen

[ACUDANUT]

Wait, there are Shadows out there, that still run ? 

[Mike DC]

 
Wait, there are California freeways out there, that still move? 

[A383Wing]

Wait, there are Shadows out there, that still run ? 

just turned 218,000 miles...little car runs great.......it just rides like a rock which my back does not like anymore

[ACUDANUT]

I bought my last new Chrysler in 94.  It was a Shadow with a 3.0.  It lasted 5 years. The Transmission went out at 70K and the paint flaked off. 

[A383Wing]

I bought my last new Chrysler in 94.  It was a Shadow with a 3.0.  It lasted 5 years. The Transmission went out at 70K and the paint flaked off. 

yea...the V6 trans's were junk...mine has little 2.5 in it