Survivor versus Restored ?

[Challenger340]

OK, I would like to hear opinions on what exactly constitutes a "Survivor" Vehicle ?
versus how far...
or what amount of work can be performed, before the Car becomes considered a "Restoration" or Restored  ?

Is Engine rebuilding allowed ? Is repainting allowed ? 90% original parts still there ? 80% ? Where is the line on still being a "Survivor" ?

[Ghoste]

To me, no rebuild and 90% original paint to be a survivor.

[69 OUR/TEA]

To me, no rebuild and 90% original paint to be a survivor.

I'll agree to that to.Tires/brakes/belts/hoses,etc,maintenance/safety items OK,but repaint/engine rebuild,to me,then it didn't survive.

[polywideblock]

to me its anything that's made it this far and not been molested or wrecked .if its had a repaint in the 70's or 80's that was obviously done then ,well its survived for 30+ years so survivor

            not how they look at it for judging I think they even look for belts dizzy cap etc. to be assembly line correct 

[tan top]

To me, no rebuild and 90% original paint to be a survivor.

I'll agree to that to.Tires/brakes/belts/hoses,etc,maintenance/safety items OK,but repaint/engine rebuild,to me,then it didn't survive.

yeah agreed , although if the repaint was done  30 plus years ago , maybe  that's ok as well  , think every car has to be judged separate , 

[Tilar]

To me, no rebuild and 90% original paint to be a survivor.

I'll agree to that to.Tires/brakes/belts/hoses,etc,maintenance/safety items OK,but repaint/engine rebuild,to me,then it didn't survive.

I'll agree with that for the most part. Any normal maintenance items are fine and shouldn't take away survivor status. Any drive train component rebuilds or anything that includes new panels and paint means it did not survive.  However to me the jury is still out on just a repaint to "freshen it up" regardless of when it was or how much of it, but right now I'm leaning toward no because it did not survive. Someone can say it was 30 years ago so let that one slide, then someone else will come along and say theirs made it 25 years and right on down the line. 

[tan top]

To me, no rebuild and 90% original paint to be a survivor.

I'll agree to that to.Tires/brakes/belts/hoses,etc,maintenance/safety items OK,but repaint/engine rebuild,to me,then it didn't survive.

I'll agree with that for the most part. Any normal maintenance items are fine and shouldn't take away survivor status. Any drive train component rebuilds or anything that includes new panels and paint means it did not survive.  However to me the jury is still out on just a repaint to "freshen it up" regardless of when it was or how much of it, but right now I'm leaning toward no because it did not survive. Someone can say it was 30 years ago so let that one slide, then someone else will come along and say theirs made it 25 years and right on down the line.  

good points  
, then you have got to factor in , say the charger or what ever was a week month year old etc  two years old & was side swipped new  quarter  door rocker /sill  , fender !    or had a front end wreck   etc then repaired   40 years down the line , if that car has not had any more paint , & been stored in a barn etc ,  

[c00nhunterjoe]

My girlfriends nova could raise that question. 2 weeks after her uncle bought it he got hit and the left front fender and headlight bezel were replaced. Does that remove it from survivor status? Same thing with the engine. He threw a rod street racing it and put a new engine in it 30 yrs ago so now what? It still has the correct 350, wears its origonal paint other then the fender, has 30,000 miles on it, origonal interior other then carpet due to mice and such. It has performance stuff done by her uncle years ago when it was street raced but its been basicly stored since then.

[Ghoste]

To me it's not a survivor, its a well preserved car but not a survivor.

[Challenger340]

I just knew there would be controversy over this one, subjective to the individual Car I guess ?
So,
* Brakes, Tires, Hoses, Oil Changes and Tune-ups along the way... considered normal maintenance and OK ?
* Original & Un-rebuilt Engine & Trans that have never been out of the Car would also qualify ?(in great shape and not requiring it BTW)
* Carpet replaced, Front Seats re-stitched, but otherwise Original Interior can probably be considered somewhat "normal maintenance" and OK also ?

But,
an Exterior RE-PAINT, No doorjam repaint, No underhood repaint, etc., just "exterior" spray back the same color on the original un-reworked Panels , 30 years ago in the mid 1980's .... a definite NO to the word "Survivor" ??

Then what word is best descriptive of the above Car for Insurance purposes on Market Valuation ?
* SEMI-Survivor ?
* Well Maintained Original Car ?(my vote)
or
* Older Restoration ?
I don't think "older resto" fits too well though, because nothing else has been "restored", No Engine or Trans work, NO body panels, NO Strg or Suspension, etc., etc.

[XS29L9Bxxxxxx]

To me, no rebuild and 90% original paint to be a survivor.

I'll agree to that to.Tires/brakes/belts/hoses,etc,maintenance/safety items OK,but repaint/engine rebuild,to me,then it didn't survive.

yeah agreed , although if the repaint was done  30 plus years ago , maybe  that's ok as well  , think every car has to be judged separate , 

a repaint is a repaint, last year, last decade, or the day after it was sold, it isn't original, and didn't "survive"

[Sublime/Sixpack]

In my opinion if it's been repainted it's no longer a true survivor.
Survivor=unmolested original.

No one word comes to mind to describe the car you're talking about.
More than one word? "Original, except for one repaint". "Mostly original". "Unmolested condition, with one repaint".  

[XS29L9Bxxxxxx]

Bloomington Gold, the Corvette Show and Certification body, set the standard for judging, decades ago. Survivor is a registered trademark of theirs, too.
Here are more details on their criteria:

The SURVIVOR®  Award is designed to recognize those Corvettes that are "worn in, but not worn out." A SURVIVOR Corvette is significantly unrestored, unrepaired, or unmodified and meets these requirements:

Is over 20 years old
Can pass a road test over 10 miles
Remains over 50% unrestored, un-refinished, or unaltered
Retains finishes good enough to use as a color guide for restoration of a car just like it
Judges inspect  four components. Cars must pass at least three of these four categories in order to become SURVIVOR Certified: Exterior, Interior, Under Hood, Chassis

Mel Major's MOPAR survivor criteria is a bit different, albeit the same goal overall, I think - here's the details:

MISSION:   The first objective is to preserve the nice old MOPARS and gather them together for reference displays to show them as they were years ago.
The second objective is to get all of the owners together for these displays to have fun and enjoy their MOPARS. This is not a club with a membership. Any Mopar that meets the criteria, and would like to attend a show, can sign up. There is not, and will not be any competition within this group.
CRITERIA:   UNRESTORED/UNRESTIFIED MOPARS at least 25 years old. 80% each, of the paint, interior, and drive train must be as "factory installed or applied". It does not mean repainted to the correct color or rebuilt to the original specifications.
We want the display to present each vehicle to best represent it the way it is after it Survived all of these years. Maintenance and normal repairs are acceptable as well as minimal accident repair. Component replacement; such as belts, hoses, exhaust, tires, etc. is expected.
To maintain a high quality display, we recommend replacing components with similar items such as correct tire type and size, correct battery, stock appearing exhaust, correct hose clamps, Mopar belts, etc.

If your Mopar is going to participate in one of these displays, we will ask for two pictures and a short story of how it survived over the years. This will become part of the display.

If you have any questions, please ask.

[Tilar]

I just knew there would be controversy over this one, subjective to the individual Car I guess ?

Then what word is best descriptive of the above Car for Insurance purposes on Market Valuation ?

* Well Maintained Original Car ?(my vote)

That would be my choice. 

[Challenger340]

CRITERIA:   UNRESTORED/UNRESTIFIED MOPARS at least 25 years old. 80% each, of the paint, interior, and drive train must be as "factory installed or applied". It does not mean repainted to the correct color or rebuilt to the original specifications.

There we have it then.... a completely "repainted" Car, would NOT qualify as a "Survivor" Car, because 80% of the originally applied paint is covered over !
THANKS so much.... this is great, and from an official body no less.

I am going with the "well maintained original car" for the Insurance purposes, the use of the word "Fine Survivor Vehicle" by their Appraiser was causing some headaches to an agreed value and "how" to maintain Registration.

[rarefish]

I have had my Charger in the Mopar Survivors tent at Carlisle a few times now and one thing that I have found out is that there almost no untouched cars out there as far as paint is concerned. I saw body panel that had been repainted, scratches that were brushed touched and engines that were repainted. The car with a true untouched exterior paint, interior trim and engine compartment are extremely rare. I'm not including replacement of routine maintenance items. One can really split hairs on this subject when trying to define what is a true survivor.

[Tilar]

One can really split hairs on this subject when trying to define what is a true survivor.

In all reality there would be a difference between "survivor" and "true survivor". A "True Survivor" would be 100% intact. This 71 hemi RR that Chris posted about here. http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,106828.0.html is probably as close as anyone will ever get.

[rarefish]

I have been somewhat on a quest to find some of the ultimate survivor cars. That would be cars that are as close to factory original as one can get and that would include some of the normal maintenance items still being factory original. That 71 Roadrunner is as nice as they come and probably should be considered as a ultimate survivor due to it's condition.

[Dino]

My daily driver Honda was hit in the fender when it was a few weeks old.  It was repainted.  If this car shows up in a barn 40 years from now and after a cleaning looks real nice, are you going to tell me that's not a survivor?  Come one now!

If the car made it that far and it is all there and working, it has survived. 

We always argue about this because there are no standards for how many years, how much body work was done etcetera, yet we need to look at the individual cars and make that call.  A car that is completely untouched after decades was probably in a bubble.  That's not a survivor, it was never a car to begin with but a trophy.

[Cooter]

Only "survivor" bodies that I see would rusty rat rods...nobody EVER hardly touches them...

[HeavyFuel]

The car with a true untouched exterior paint, interior trim and engine compartment are extremely rare. I'm not including replacement of routine maintenance items. One can really split hairs on this subject when trying to define what is a true survivor.

There are these types of cars out there, but unfortunately they aren't the kind we go after.

A friend of mine at a local car lot called me last summer about a '68 Monaco he had on consignment.   $5K.  The car was absolutely a perfect unblemished survivor.   Perfect.  I scrutinized the car for a long time trying to find anything wrong with it.  Some grandma had it garaged for years.  But a MONACO?   

[A383Wing]

Remember that Fury? that was in a time capsule and they dug it back up? Still had original paint, interior, and even OE air in the tires....it "survived"......barely

[XS29L9Bxxxxxx]

When I think Survivor, I think of that brown Charger from Carlisle (in the Survivor Tent) a few years ago 

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,74322.0.html

[Ghoste]

That time capsule Fury wasn't a survivor, it was a corpse.

[Challenger340]

[A383Wing]

I don't see an issue with the dist cap...most all were tan back then. I would get rid of that upper hose before it rips out the radiator nipple from the top tank. Also, do something with those quik-fix battery cable ends

wires should have 90* & straight boots on the cap end in the correct locations also

[maxwellwedge]

Call up Frank Badalson and have him send you a spark plug wire set, rad hoses, heater hoses, rad cap, battery hold down wing nuts and washers, a PCV hose and battery cables.  

[Ghoste]

And maybe send him those pics for good measure.

[maxwellwedge]

Good idea!

[Baldwinvette77]

My idea of a survivor is a car thats never been off the road for extended length of time, regardless of repairs, collision, engine overhaul etc., cars that are are 90%+ original i consider "preserved" 

[Ghoste]

Semantics.

[rarefish]

I think we are starting to  here on the survivor debate.

[Lord Warlock]

How about looking at it from a different perspective? what constitutes a "Restoration".  I hear folks doing nut and bolt restorations, full rotisserie restorations, and resto mods.  I don't really consider what I've been doing to mine was officially a restoration, it was more of a refresh to make it roadworthy, and that has always been the goal was just to get it back on the street again, but have to admit that it seems to have gotten a little out of control fixing more than just the necessary stuff but also looking at it long term in that i didn't want to have to do it again later so opted to fix a part now instead.  My car was a true survivor car until i started fixing it, now i can't really say its a survivor anymore, its moving closer to a restoration, even though i don't classify it as one yet.