Does a roll cage destroy the value of a car?

[MxRacer855]

I'm not necessarily going to drag my car, but I do actually "DRIVE drive" it and I'm considering one for safety (and stability granting it increases chassis rigidity).

Thoughts and opinions please. I really do enjoy the classic car look.

[Baldwinvette77]

Yeah, they do, bolt in cages don't hurt value as much, but alot of people, including myself question their strength. i put a 4 point roll cage in mine because 1: im a Wreckless idiot, and 2: chargers look mean with them 

[JamieZ]

There are also insurance implications.  Some companies won't cover a car with a cage since they assume you are racing it.

[Ghoste]

Depending on use of course, it might be safer bet to just connect the subframes.

[Baldwinvette77]

There are lots of ways of adding rigidity without a cage, alot of people hide braces behind the fenders and under the dash to control the torque, i've seen people add 1/8 plate on top of the front frame rails and of course subframe connectors 

[MxRacer855]

Yeah, they do, bolt in cages don't hurt value as much, but alot of people, including myself question their strength. i put a 4 point roll cage in mine because 1: im a Wreckless idiot, and 2: chargers look mean with them 

Thanks for posting this honest statement Baldwinvette77. To be completely honest, my initial reasons were the... delicate, round about way of saying that I'm a wreckless idiot as well!  So for my own safety, it might be a serious option to consider. In addition to that, the minimal amount of stiffness added is definitely a plus.

Jeff

[myk]

There are lots of ways of adding rigidity without a cage, alot of people hide braces behind the fenders and under the dash to control the torque, i've seen people add 1/8 plate on top of the front frame rails and of course subframe connectors 

Interesting.  I'm all about chassis rigidity and was thinking that somewhere along the line a roll-cage would have to go in, although I'm not too fond of the idea as I don't like the thought of a 2nd Gen looking like it has a B-pillar.  So...you mentioned fender bracing, under-dash bracing and steel plate on the frame rails?  Do you have an article or other information on this matter? 

[Mike DC]

            
If it's just about stiffening the car then resorting to a cage is probably not called for.

Yes cages do help stiffen things.  But unless you are willing to X-brace the door openings and put a seatbelt bar across behind the front seatbacks, you aren't taking advantage of what a cage can really do in terms of stiffening.  



You could get a lot from the basics of subframe connectors, torque box plating, lower rad crossmember, shock tower braces, etc.  (Did you notice that this list includes more than subframe connectors?  They are not the only chassis stiffening method worth doing.  SC's weren't even the first extra step that the factory took when they built convertibles.)

[Ghoste]

Mike is right, most of the roll cages that go into street drivne cars are really just providing some rollover protection for the passenger comparment.  If you want the cage to stiffen the you need to take a closer look at what a roundy rounder or road course racer does to their car.  Bars going to the very front and very rear.

[XS29L9Bxxxxxx]

Unless your car is bright orange with 01 on the doors, the roll cage will take away from the value and overall salability 

[Ghoste]

There is even a right and wrong with those, is there not?

[Baldwinvette77]

There are lots of ways of adding rigidity without a cage, alot of people hide braces behind the fenders and under the dash to control the torque, i've seen people add 1/8 plate on top of the front frame rails and of course subframe connectors 

Interesting.  I'm all about chassis rigidity and was thinking that somewhere along the line a roll-cage would have to go in, although I'm not too fond of the idea as I don't like the thought of a 2nd Gen looking like it has a B-pillar.  So...you mentioned fender bracing, under-dash bracing and steel plate on the frame rails?  Do you have an article or other information on this matter? 

Various sources, pipo did the fender bracing on his 69 charger from italy thread, and old episode of musclecar tv did a dash brace and the fender braces on their 70 challenger
and on another episode they boxed in a 65 fastback stangs front frame rails

i also think stacey david did similiar things on a mercury cougar  ..... i prefer tv to writeups 

[Ghoste]

The early Mustangs were notoriously bad in the front (Cougars too) thats why Shelby had to do that export bracing as it was cleverly termed for race legalizing.  The shock towers wanted to get together and the front suspension wouldn't hold a setting. 
One of the reasons I get miffed when people knock the Mopars and torsion bars.  It was superior to the competition of the time in my opinion.

[Baldwinvette77]

The early Mustangs were notoriously bad in the front (Cougars too) thats why Shelby had to do that export bracing as it was cleverly termed for race legalizing.  The shock towers wanted to get together and the front suspension wouldn't hold a setting. 
One of the reasons I get miffed when people knock the Mopars and torsion bars.  It was superior to the competition of the time in my opinion.

yeah torsion bars are epic tough.... but i aint paying 3000k + to throw together a stock front suspension, i rather spend half that on a generic hotrod suspension 

[Ghoste]

It will cost you over 3000 to build a stock suspension?

[Baldwinvette77]

It will cost you over 3000 to build a stock suspension?

From nothing yeah... from gathering steering parts, new torsion bars, bushings, spindles, brake parts, having to repair my torsion bar cross member, control arms, steering box, and k-member it came up at about 2700$ for a combination of new,used and universal parts and shipping charges .

[twodko]

           
If it's just about stiffening the car then resorting to a cage is probably not called for.

Yes cages do help stiffen things.  But unless you are willing to X-brace the door openings and put a seatbelt bar across behind the front seatbacks, you aren't taking advantage of what a cage can really do in terms of stiffening.  



You could get a lot from the basics of subframe connectors, torque box plating, lower rad crossmember, shock tower braces, etc.  (Did you notice that this list includes more than subframe connectors?  They are not the only chassis stiffening method worth doing.  SC's weren't even the first extra step that the factory took when they built convertibles.)

X2 plus they are ugly. 

[HPP]

Yeah, they do, bolt in cages don't hurt value as much, but alot of people, including myself question their strength. i put a 4 point roll cage in mine because 1: im a Wreckless idiot, and 2: chargers look mean with them 

Thanks for posting this honest statement Baldwinvette77. To be completely honest, my initial reasons were the... delicate, round about way of saying that I'm a wreckless idiot as well!  So for my own safety, it might be a serious option to consider. In addition to that, the minimal amount of stiffness added is definitely a plus.

Jeff

i agree. For most guys, they will signifcantly detract from the value.

For safety sake in a street car, I also question their value as a protection device. The reason being is that in a race car, you have a helmet to protect your melon when it bonks the bar. In a street car you do not have a helmet. Yes ,you can add foam, but the issue, IMO, is not so much what you are running into with your head so much as the addition of a roll bar/cage in a street situation significantly reduces clearances of things to run into. Face it, a roll cage is not any harder than a steel roof rail as far as impact goes. However, to install the cage means it is offset from the interior panels because of its diameter, you also have additional offset to allow you room to weld around it and you may have some extra offset to put the panels back in. Net result is you may be reducing room inside the car by up to 4-6 inches.  This may not seem significant, unless you have ever watched in car video of how much our bodies move in an impact. In these situations, 4-6 inches could mean the dfference between a skull frature and a seat belt bruise.

I agree with Mike DC that there are a lot of methods of increasing chassis rigidity before needing to resort to a bar/cage. These days there are companies offering whole systems to help increase rigidity in unobtrusive ways. One of the most underrated and unobtrusive ways is to simply weld up all the pinch seams in the car. I have seen a study done on a first gen mustang where this exercise improved torsional rigidity 65% over stock with no other mods done to the overall structure of the car. Sure, it takes a lot of effort and can't be done on a complete car, but if you're starting as a project, it might be worth considering.

[Baldwinvette77]

Yeah, they do, bolt in cages don't hurt value as much, but alot of people, including myself question their strength. i put a 4 point roll cage in mine because 1: im a Wreckless idiot, and 2: chargers look mean with them 

Thanks for posting this honest statement Baldwinvette77. To be completely honest, my initial reasons were the... delicate, round about way of saying that I'm a wreckless idiot as well!  So for my own safety, it might be a serious option to consider. In addition to that, the minimal amount of stiffness added is definitely a plus.

Jeff

i agree. For most guys, they will signifcantly detract from the value.

For safety sake in a street car, I also question their value as a protection device. The reason being is that in a race car, you have a helmet to protect your melon when it bonks the bar. In a street car you do not have a helmet. Yes ,you can add foam, but the issue, IMO, is not so much what you are running into with your head so much as the addition of a roll bar/cage in a street situation significantly reduces clearances of things to run into. Face it, a roll cage is not any harder than a steel roof rail as far as impact goes. However, to install the cage means it is offset from the interior panels because of its diameter, you also have additional offset to allow you room to weld around it and you may have some extra offset to put the panels back in. Net result is you may be reducing room inside the car by up to 4-6 inches.  This may not seem significant, unless you have ever watched in car video of how much our bodies move in an impact. In these situations, 4-6 inches could mean the dfference between a skull frature and a seat belt bruise.

I agree with Mike DC that there are a lot of methods of increasing chassis rigidity before needing to resort to a bar/cage. These days there are companies offering whole systems to help increase rigidity in unobtrusive ways. One of the most underrated and unobtrusive ways is to simply weld up all the pinch seams in the car. I have seen a study done on a first gen mustang where this exercise improved torsional rigidity 65% over stock with no other mods done to the overall structure of the car. Sure, it takes a lot of effort and can't be done on a complete car, but if you're starting as a project, it might be worth considering.

65%? you don't say? maybe i can build a charger that can survive a jump or 2 afterall 

[toocheaptosmoke]

I also debated putting a roll cage in my car for a while, I'll admit that one picture of a charger crash tested into a wall that was CRUSHED was part of the motivation.   I plan on driving the car a lot, and as much as I hate to say it getting into a wreck is a possibility.  In the end I compromised with subframe connectors, also have torque boxes waiting to go in, and am considering additional things like already mentioned.  The cage will detract a bit from the comfort of riding in the car, climbing over braces every time you enter/exit, and passengers in the backseat would not be happy. 

[myk]

If I can get away with chassis stiffening without a rollcage that's the direction I'll head in for sure.  The impression I get from this thread is that the roll cages are either for real racers or real ricers.  Now, my car is on the road so I can't do that seam-welding thing, but I do have SFC's; maybe I will look into those torque boxes next...

[Fred]

           
If it's just about stiffening the car then resorting to a cage is probably not called for.

Yes cages do help stiffen things.  But unless you are willing to X-brace the door openings and put a seatbelt bar across behind the front seatbacks, you aren't taking advantage of what a cage can really do in terms of stiffening.  



You could get a lot from the basics of subframe connectors, torque box plating, lower rad crossmember, shock tower braces, etc.  (Did you notice that this list includes more than subframe connectors?  They are not the only chassis stiffening method worth doing.  SC's weren't even the first extra step that the factory took when they built convertibles.)

X2 plus they are ugly. 

x3  (On the off chance you value my opinion)

[Cooter]

Depends on who bends the bars, how well it's fitted/hidden, and how easily it [the car] can be gotten in and out of...
A 'drag' cage is NOT meant for the street...therefore,  it is uncomfortable to get in and out of. But it serves a vital purpose.

A 'street' cage serves the same purpose, but is custom fitted as to strengthen the car while providing minimal intrusion on comfort.
Basically, done correctly, a street cage might add value..done cheaply/hurried, it is more if a problem than an asset.

[Indygenerallee]

I am going to run a full cage in my Daytona clone I figure since I am doing a race style tribute car and I am going to do some road racing eventually (we have a nice SCCA road course just up the road, Putnamville road course) and I want the car to be as stiff and safe as possible.

[Cooter]

Not to mention, cages on the street just plain ol look badass. Period. Useless? Maybe, just like a 50% efficient roots blower vs a much better centifugal blower.

[Troy]

It won't decrease the value of your Jeep! Your Charger is a different story. If you're not racing it then what's the point of going through the trouble (and added weight) of putting in a cage? Hemi cars only got torque boxes and a couple other small frame stiffeners. You could always add frame connectors. I doubt you'd notice any difference at all on the street.

Safety? My car didn't even come with shoulder belts! The biggest danger in these old cars was folding yourself up under the dash or breaking your jaw on the steering wheel (both due to the lap belt). Better seats and good 3 point belts will probably do more for your safety than a roll cage.

Besides, a good cage will require cutting of some original parts too and it's a royal pain to get in/out of the car. A single hoop would be practically useless.

Troy

[MxRacer855]

I'm going to re-evaluate what I'm going to use the car for and in the mean tie order subframe connectors and torque boxes.

[Ghoste]

 

[Indygenerallee]

http://uscartool.com/I have their subframe connectors and they are badass!!! very nice well fitted pieces!!

[Brock Lee]

There are also insurance implications.  Some companies won't cover a car with a cage since they assume you are racing it.

That is very, very true. I had a Charger with a full cage in it and it posed a problem insuring it. Hagerty ended up insuring it, but only because I had absolutely convinced them it would rarely ever be driven. It was essentially viewed as a historical item that would occasionally be transported to be viewed. It was such a chore getting it covered that I vowed to never go through it again.

[Mike DC]

 
Was Hagerty worried about you street racing the car, or were they worried about the metal tubing killing you in a wreck?  I would assume the main concern was street racing it.

   

[Brock Lee]

Well, since their policy is for an agreed amount, I doubt they care too much about the safety factor. Live or die their payout would be the same.

[Baldwinvette77]

Not to mention, cages on the street just plain ol look badass. Period. Useless? Maybe, just like a 50% efficient roots blower vs a much better centifugal blower.

Useless, just like a shiny paintjob, or fresh chrome,but Just as cool to look at 

[MxRacer855]

If my little Nissan Altima rolled in an accident driving in everyday life (assuming everything was best case scenario), I'm fairly sure the car will have enough support to stay in tact, hold it's general figure, and keep the passengers in the vehicle safe. Not to mention it has multiple air bags, along with many other modern car safety features. If one of our Charger's (give or take 3,700 LBS) rolled in the very same accident, the lack of roof support and the heavy weight of the car would have to cause it to buckle.

Just for safety alone (and if you know you have a tendency to get a little "wild")... I don't see how it's possible for the right cage (sleek, well-fitted, convenient, semi-hidden) being anything but worthwhile. 

Jeff

[Ghoste]

I still think in almost every case it is going to hurt the value of the car and as for concerns about the crashworthiness of these cars, yes, the crash test photo from 1969 is horrible and since it was high speed into a solid object it should be.  Should you be so frightened from the photo that you need to put a rollcage in the car to save your life?  You have to decide that for yourself.  May as well wear a HAN device a firesuit and make damned sure it has the properly secured five point harness too. Since people actually did survive accidents before the advent of airbags and crumple zones I'll continue to take my chances.

[Baldwinvette77]

If my little Nissan Altima rolled in an accident driving in everyday life (assuming everything was best case scenario), I'm fairly sure the car will have enough support to stay in tact, hold it's general figure, and keep the passengers in the vehicle safe. Not to mention it has multiple air bags, along with many other modern car safety features. If one of our Charger's (give or take 3,700 LBS) rolled in the very same accident, the lack of roof support and the heavy weight of the car would have to cause it to buckle.

Just for safety alone (and if you know you have a tendency to get a little "wild")... I don't see how it's possible for the right cage (sleek, well-fitted, convenient, semi-hidden) being anything but worthwhile.  

Jeff

If you really want one, put one in, if you don't, then don't   i put mine in as a dukes, and deathproof reference, not so much a safety feature because its actually kinda hard to roll an old musclecar, compared to alot of other vehicles they have a really low center of gravity, big heavy frame, solid axles, and case iron blocks keep the weight below the body line, just to roll one of these, hollywood typically installs a cannon in the car the rocket one side of the car up in the air to trigger a roll, but its unlike in an everyday situation  

Ohyeah and that crumpled 69 charger that was wreck beyond recognition was traveling 100 mph into a concrete barrier, anycar, especially one with crumple zones will fold in at that speed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmRkPyuet_o

heres a focus at 120

[Mike DC]

Car guys rationalize rollcages and avoiding economy cars for safety.  Then we scoff at our wives' concerns about riding motorcycles.

[MxRacer855]

 

Car guys rationalize rollcages and avoiding economy cars for safety.  Then we scoff at our wives' concerns about riding motorcycles.

[HPP]

I'd be willing to bet your Altima weighs in pretty close to 3200-3400# depending on your engine. Throw a couple adults in it and a truck full off stuff and it wont be far off from your Charger in weight. Don't be fooled that because it is late model or uses high strength steel that over all it is a lightweight.

If you want a roll bar, put one in.

[MxRacer855]

I just looked it up, you were nearly spot on with the weight. Point taken. I'm just trying to evaluate the possible consequences.

[Indygenerallee]

You roll any car 4 or 5 times and its roof is gonna be flat as a pancake... (I owned a Towing business for 5 years and ive seen multiple rollovers up close and personal) If you plan on drag/road racing or doing any high speed driving (over 100) I would strongly suggest a cage to keep the roof from crushing you into a smudge of blood and goo in the case of a rollover (and throw a good 5 point harness in there as well!)

[Ghoste]

That was kind of my point as well.  If you are just doing it to look "badass" then the bare minimum is all you need.  Make it out of wood and cover it with foam to look round if looking cool is the goal.  But if you are truly doing it for safety or chassis strnegthening then a mere roll bar or even a simple "cage" is not nearly enough.

[Troy]

Yeah, a roll cage is useless if you get ejected from the car while it's flipping over...

I've know a lot of crazy drivers in my life time and I've done my fair share of questionable "stunts" and have never known a car to roll. On the street that is. I have lots of redneck friends who roll their jacked up 4x4s on a regular basis. It's a badge of honor.

If you think you might, at some point, be flipping end over end while racing in the Silver State Classic then, by all means, add a cage. And a fire system. And a fuel cell. And safety wire everything. And wear a helmet at all times. If you're worried about the roof caving in during an accident driving 25 mph to the corner store for a soda then you're overly paranoid and will probably never actually drive the car - at which point adding a cage just costs you a lot of money.

I'd worry much more about the engine coming through the firewall in a accident. Or getting hit in the back of the head by the rear seat when it ejects. One of my previous Chargers had some neat dents in the lower dash frame from someone's knees and the steering column was 2" too short. There aren't any "crumple zones" in these cars (except the steering column apparently) so the driver becomes a pinball on the inside while everything heavy tears itself from its mounting points. The only cage that will protect you from all that will wrap completely around the passenger compartment, have many mounting points, and will certainly not be hidden.

Troy

[MxRacer855]

I guess I was just trying to weigh options. I don't want to build a "drag car", but I'm building a fast car that I'm going to drag on occasion (if that makes sense). 9 times out of 10 I'm going to be just another guy on the road. But my "idiotness" will come out that other 10%. 

[Cooter]

Real question you gotta ask yourself is are yu planning on selling anytime soon?

If so, look for hardcore guys that don't mind a cage. For me, if its well done, its not a deal breaker.

[MxRacer855]

I know what you're going to say to this Cooter (and probably makes this entire thread seem stupid on my part), but I don't ever plan on selling the car... EVER!  You just never know though... and I'm trying to take care of all of those "What if's"?

Jeff

[Indygenerallee]

I've know a lot of crazy drivers in my life time and I've done my fair share of questionable "stunts" and have never known a car to roll.

pretty generous statement.. Ive seen several fatalities due to rollovers and the passengers were not ejected, but I guess unless you have been up close and personal on a fatal wreck scene nothing is gonna drive the point home.

[Mike DC]

Stupid comes in varying degrees. 

There is "grown man abusing the mechanicals" stupid.  And there is "fucking teenage idiot didn't even realize he was near losing it" stupid.  The latter can definitely roll a car.
 

[Troy]

I've know a lot of crazy drivers in my life time and I've done my fair share of questionable "stunts" and have never known a car to roll.

pretty generous statement.. Ive seen several fatalities due to rollovers and the passengers were not ejected, but I guess unless you have been up close and personal on a fatal wreck scene nothing is gonna drive the point home.

You're quoting me. I was just pointing out that, while I'm aware it can happen, I've never known anyone who has done it. I know a lot of people and a lot of really bad drivers so that tells me the odds are small enough that I'm not wasting my time worrying about it. Sure, I could build my car to withstand a direct hit from an RPG but that also seems a bit like overkill. Call me crazy!

Troy

[1974dodgecharger]

I know what you're going to say to this Cooter (and probably makes this entire thread seem stupid on my part), but I don't ever plan on selling the car... EVER!  You just never know though... and I'm trying to take care of all of those "What if's"?

Jeff

I say that all the time, but then end up selling them.....oh well.

[Ghoste]

Many do.

[HPP]

I guess I was just trying to weigh options. I don't want to build a "drag car", but I'm building a fast car that I'm going to drag on occasion (if that makes sense). 9 times out of 10 I'm going to be just another guy on the road. But my "idiotness" will come out that other 10%. 

Keep in mind that if have a fast car that you drag race on occasion, you will still have to meet the same tech requirements for safety based  on e.t. as a dedicated drag car and that may mean if you install a bar/cage, you have specific requirements that make it street unfriendly.

I would agree that it takes a high degree of "stupid" or "unlucky" to roll a Charger, but it is still a calculated risk and it can happen. Over all the odds, even factoring in some of the dumb stunts I've pulled, are pretty low compared to other types of vehicles and unless you level of stupid include airborne stunts and bouncing off curbs. But, sometimes even the 1 in a million chance hits. So, you have to assess for your self if the rick/benefit ratio is there for a bar and decide on your own if it is applicable to your situation.

[MxRacer855]

Thanks for that HPP. I hear you on that. There's always that chance that something can happen, but most likely will not if you do everything in your power to prevent them. I understand that the car has to be "drag" safe whether I run it once every 5 years, or 5 times a week. So back to the beginning again... I guess it really just comes down to what I want to do. Thanks for the great insight and opinions from everyone! I'll let you know what I decide, when I decide it.

Jeff

[Mike DC]

 
These cars are 50yo designs.  They aren't very safe in ANY way. 

No real crumple zones. The metal seat frames are shockingly weak for the job.  Side impact is a complete joke, not even the basic door beams.  The roof structure didn't even have a standard to meet.  Headrests were optional until the second half of the '69 cars.  The engine/tranny weighed most of 1000 lbs with nothing more than the firewall sheetmetal to keep it out of the cabin. 

If you want one of these things safe by modern standards then you will be starting from the ground up to redo the majority of the car. 
   

[68X426]

 
These cars are 50yo designs.  They aren't very safe in ANY way. 

No real crumple zones. The metal seat frames are shockingly weak for the job.  Side impact is a complete joke, not even the basic door beams.  The roof structure didn't even have a standard to meet.  Headrests were optional until the second half of the '69 cars.  The engine/tranny weighed most of 1000 lbs with nothing more than the firewall sheetmetal to keep it out of the cabin. 

If you want one of these things safe by modern standards then you will be starting from the ground up to redo the majority of the car. 
   

Great points, well said. 

[shart70rt]

Yep, they are a real piece of crap, but I love them.

[RDC]

When I bought my 74 years ago it had a full roll cage installed. I was planning to turn the car from a drag racer back to a street car, and wasn't sure at the time what to do with the cage. The side bars were removed , but I left the rest. After repainting the car and getting it ready for the road I had it appraised for insurance and he went out of his way to take pictures that wouldn't show the cage, as no matter what is under the hood its instantly a race car and insurance would go through the roof, and some companys might not insure it a all. It has frame connecter as well and I decided it wasn't needed and cut the rest of the cage out. I now have a full interior back in the car, and my appraised value is more (believe it or not) and my insurance is $300 cheaper. In my experience the value of the car went up, and my insurance went down. If your not drag racing, forget the cage, install frame connector for stength and wear your seat belt at all times

[HPP]

After repainting the car and getting it ready for the road I had it appraised for insurance and he went out of his way to take pictures that wouldn't show the cage, as no matter what is under the hood its instantly a race car and insurance would go through the roof, and some companys might not insure it a all.

my appraised value is more (believe it or not) and my insurance is $300 cheaper. In my experience the value of the car went up, and my insurance went down.

But is this not really true since the former was an attempt to conceal the cage and the latter is based on the perception of the car being cageless.

[RDC]

He attempted to conceal, but didn't succeed. kind of had to take good pictures without seeing the bars.

[MxRacer855]

Yeah, it would have to be on a super sunny day where the glare just radiates off the windows.

[Baldwinvette77]

He attempted to conceal, but didn't succeed. kind of had to take good pictures without seeing the bars.

It's called photoshop 

[RallyeMike]

Why worry about value if you don't ever plan on selling the car?

I would recommending installation of a cage in a street car unless you also plan to race it. The value of a cage is not fully realized unless you are also willing to wear your 5-point harness (at race tightness) and a helmet. Without the belts and helmet you are just adding weight at a high center of gravity and not making the car much safer.

[Ghoste]

I wonder if the people who are sure they are never going to sell their car shouldn't be the ones who worry most about value.  The most likely reason for them to sell would logically be an emergency need for the cash no?

[Cooter]

I wonder if the people who are sure they are never going to sell their car shouldn't be the ones who worry most about value.  The most likely reason for them to sell would logically be an emergency need for the cash no?

That there's your first mistake.  Emergency cash is one thing, but where many make their mistake is they begin to believe that hype they've heard about paying of houses with a 318 car.
A classic example is a used to be buddy of mine with a 'california' 58 Plymouth 2dr hdtop.
Dude has been trying to sell it for about 5 years. Has THREE (3) offers for exactly whwt he paid even wwith car in pieces.
Dude calls each buyer I lined up and attempts to play them against each other for what he referred to as a 'better deal'.
It cost him the sale on all accounts. Selling is unfortunate, but come sale time, forced or not, it seems greed enters the picture and screws it all up.

[Ghoste]

Thats what I mean though, if you are an emergency only seller, you need to have actual value in the car, not the hype value.