MCACN B5 Hemi Charger 500.....

[TheAutoArchaeologist]

Ok, I got an up close and personal look at the B5 Hemi Charger 500. 

Someone mentioned that the reflector outer frame should be body color, correct?  Is this just from what has been seen or is there proof otherwise.  Ken thought it was that they all came that way.















I showed him the twin I found, and he said it is simple enough to remove the sticker if that is all it is.



Ryan

[Ghoste]

I believe the way it worked was that all of the 500's were coded as stripe delete since Creative was applying the stripe and they began originally as RT's.  Therefore the bezels were painted body color.

[hemi68charger]

Holy C500 Bat-man, that's the same car? Sweet !!!

I do believe there are enough unrestored survivors out there that indicate the C500 run didn't see the tech's at Creative Industries painting the bezels stripe color ( albeit it looks much better )... Daytonas, luckily, got different set of procedures for the stripe installation.....

Why are they pushing a complete car in the snow?

[TheAutoArchaeologist]

Holy C500 Bat-man, that's the same car? Sweet !!!

I do believe there are enough unrestored survivors out there that indicate the C500 run didn't see the tech's at Creative Industries painting the bezels stripe color ( albeit it looks much better )... Daytonas, luckily, got different set of procedures for the stripe installation.....

Why are they pushing a complete car in the snow?

It is not the exact same car... but it is the identical twin.  Almost every option is the same. 

And the reason we are pushing it is because they took the battery out and we had to do a photoshoot and no time to pull another out of a different car. 

[A383Wing]

I believe the way it worked was that all of the 500's were coded as stripe delete since Creative was applying the stripe and they began originally as RT's.  Therefore the bezels were painted body color.

wouldn't all the bezels be painted body color regardless of whether or not it was an R/T or not?

[TUFCAT]

My Dad owned a Charger 500 in the 70's. The bezels were painted body color I guarantee that.

Regarding Creative Industries back then, I would guess they were the same as most vendors Chrysler dealt with - if it wasn't specified...it wasn't getting done. Even the "specified" stuff was done half-assed, therefore Creative wouldn't care to mess around re-painting bezels if they didn't need to. Hell they barely got the 500's and Daytona projects finished on time.  

The job requirements from Chrysler might as well been written like this:  "just hack the shit out of them as fast as possible, no need to make them pretty"!    

The Charger R/T was different. Being a regular production car the design office could ensure certain requirements went into production, hence "stripe color matched" bezels on Charger R/T's.  

Daytona is another story.  As Troy stated even though they were also modified by Creative, all the bezels were painted to match the stripe for some reason. That just goes to prove that you can't always apply the same logic from car to car, plant to plant, or even two different time periods in some cases.

[Indygenerallee]

The job requirements from Chrysler might as well been written like this:  "just hack the shit out of them as fast as possible, no need to make them pretty"!   icon_smile_big

Yup... my grandfather owned a Dodge, Chrysler, Plymouth dealership and he said he had one come off the car (did not say what it was) hauler once and when they popped the hood the entire firewall had not been painted, he said the quality in general was horrible so I can imagine creative industries was even worse...

[hemi68charger]

...Daytona is another story.  As Troy stated even though they were also modified by Creative, all the bezels were painted to match the stripe for some reason. That just goes to prove that you can't always apply the same logic from car to car, plant to plant, or even two different time periods in some cases.

The Daytona benefited from "hindsight is 20/20"....... The saw that the strip looked like doodoo on the C500's after they were put together with no attention paid to the bezels..... They just removed them, installed the stripe, and reinstalled them...... Simple... Less effort........... But, end result was less than cosmetically appealing for the 500......

[Ghoste]

500 stripes look like doodoo?  Thats a bold statement there fella.

[hemi68charger]

500 stripes look like doodoo?  Thats a bold statement there fella.

The stripe itself doesn't, the "finish" does........ Sorry, looks like doodoo seeing body color in the middle of the different color stripe... Ranks right up there with seeing bright body color through the grille........

Yucky !!   

[Ghoste]

It's like Cindy Crawford's mole, on her it's a beauty mark but on Honey Boo Boo's mom it would be another layer of  .  the 69 500 can do it where other cars it would look bad. 

[TheAutoArchaeologist]

Oh I get why it happened and how it happened.  But does anyone have any pictures of other original 500's with the same thing?  I have the Mr. Norm's picture.  Any else?  I need evidence of original cars to prove my case.

[Kowal]

That car looks an awful lot like this other one....mine!

(the lens around the light is blue)

[Kowal]

Proof on the lense is easy.   Just watch this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqtbaQL8K9Y

[hemigeno]

Danny (69_500) has done a whole lot more research on this subject, but the time a C500 was converted at Creative has a lot of bearing on whether it has body- or stripe-colored bezels.  From what I recall of his earlier musings, most of the earlier cars had body-colored bezels due to the aforementioned and well documented V88 Stripe Delete phenomenon.  At some point, a change was made and most of the later cars were shipped from Creative with stripe-colored bezels.  This required an extra step on Creative's part to paint the bezels to match the stripe, and they may have had to get approval for the additional costs prior to enacting the change (I've seen a huge stack of such additional work orders related to the Daytona program - it's amazing how careful Creative was to ask for $$ when even a tiny amount of unanticipated work was needed).

There could be exceptions to this early-vs.-late generalization, but Danny has seen and researched way too many of these for his comments to be dismissed.  He'll undoubtedly chime in later to set the record straight and add much more in the way of detail, but I think the earlier comment about bezels on this B5 car has to do with its earlier VIN/build/conversion date... implying that most cars from that particular period would have had blue bezels just like the photo Ryan posted of the "twin".

FWIW, the Lindemann video was done with one of the Press Release cars (very early conversion date), long before the changeover was made - but it at least proves that body-colored bezels were indeed present on some C500s from Day One.

[RallyeMike]

Jeez. I can't believe those guys were pushing that car around without their white gloves on!


On the stipe/bezel color issue, it's been covered thoroughly here before in other threads: Creative Industries was not consistent on this - they came both ways with either body-colored bezels or stripe-colored bezels as evidenced by the unrestored 500's that exist.

[hemi68charger]

Here's a picture of my former T7 C500 as I affectionately called "Dana"....... Unrestored car.......  Bronze bezel on a white stripe.........   When I eventually got the car, I painted the bezel black. It wasn't until later on I discovered pictures of the car prior to the restoration and was surprise to know it originally came with a white stripe.....

[Ghoste]

White stripe would have been nice against the copper.

[TUFCAT]

That's a very interesting concept Geno.  But with only 392 built in a relatively short time, how can a particular car be documented either way? It would be interesting to see what type of paper work comes up on the early-vs.-late theory.

Please understand I'm dismissing Geno's theory, nor his stack of paperwork.  I've met Geno in person and saw his reams of internal Chrysler Daytona paperwork at Carlisle. So I won't dispute what he says...nor am I a Charger 500 expert!

I will chime in on this.  For all production vehicles, Chrysler Corp created Engineering Graphics for paint, stripes, blackouts, call-outs, emblems, and dimensional locations thereof.  In many cases these graphics include seemingly minor details such as specific paints to be used (organosol vs. flat) and details for assembly line to apply graphics, even acceptable colors dependent of a vehicle color code.  Graphic drawings were created for vehicles shipped through sublet shops for final assembly as Geno stated. The question is whether or not they still exist for the 500?

I talked to a friend who has the original design blueprint for the 1969 lift-off "SIX PACK" hood decal and it's amazing the detail and sign offs required for something that simple, and he notes people still install them backwards!  They should be slanted forward on both sides.

It may be determined that Creative was actually doing things the wrong way, but that's the way many cars come out.  

[hemi68charger]

I think all those involved learned a lot of things. The process of homologating and pushing out these "production" cars was a very fast process. I don't think the detail to which things were built and QC'd over at Creative was the same as real production cars. MaMopar just needed the things built and sent out. There were "lessons" learned even in the year and half time frame I'm sure from the first C500 to the last Superbird. or example, the design team probably saw the problem with no formal process for addressing the bezel and they took care of it later or with the Daytona. The Superbird hood spring on the latch tray was probably a direct result of the observation of the difficulty it was to open a Daytona hood (?). The Superbird windshield wind deflectors being screwed on directly was a result of the lengthy process of installing them on the C500'd and Daytonas (?).... The whole process of the special homologated Aero Cars was unique to say the least. I don't believe the M-code A12's nor the TA/AAR program could be called "similar" to the XX29 production.

Just saying......... I would have never believed C500's came out of Creative Industries without their bezels painted in my early years. But, that was because the 500's were so scarce and the ones I did see were already "restored"... Albeit, probably not the proper way in the '80's. But having met Danny and Geno, I have seen plenty of examples of unrestored examples...

[TheAutoArchaeologist]

Oh I agree, as does Ken.  The bezels on the Blue C500 above are not painted white, they are body color with a vinyl covering.  So making it blue is as simple as pulling the "sticker" off.  I just need to get some examples other then the 2 pictures (now 3) of original examples.

[Mytur Binsdirti]

That's a very pretty car.   

[Ghoste]

Why did he do the bezels with vinyl?  Was he not sure himself?

[TheAutoArchaeologist]

Why did he do the bezels with vinyl?  Was he not sure himself?

No idea.

[hemigeno]

That's a very interesting concept Geno.  But with only 392 built in a relatively short time, how can a particular car be documented either way? It would be interesting to see what type of paper work comes up on the early-vs.-late theory.

Please understand I'm dismissing Geno's theory, nor his stack of paperwork.  I've met Geno in person and saw his reams of internal Chrysler Daytona paperwork at Carlisle. So I won't dispute what he says...nor am I a Charger 500 expert!

I will chime in on this.  For all production vehicles, Chrysler Corp created Engineering Graphics for paint, stripes, blackouts, call-outs, emblems, and dimensional locations thereof.  In many cases these graphics include seemingly minor details such as specific paints to be used (organosol vs. flat) and details for assembly line to apply graphics, even acceptable colors dependent of a vehicle color code.  Graphic drawings were created for vehicles shipped through sublet shops for final assembly as Geno stated. The question is whether or not they still exist for the 500?

I talked to a friend who has the original design blueprint for the 1969 lift-off "SIX PACK" hood decal and it's amazing the detail and sign offs required for something that simple, and he notes people still install them backwards!  They should be slanted forward on both sides.

It may be determined that Creative was actually doing things the wrong way, but that's the way many cars come out.  

That was an interesting weekend at Carlisle, Tom     

I'm by no means trying to make an absolute statement about which way a particular car's bezels were or weren't.  There also isn't any paperwork in my possession (nor have I seen any) about the C500 conversion procedure, at least nothing which mentions bezels anyway.  As such there's no way to document for certain which way a specific car was built, apart from vintage photos of that particular car (which Danny may know history on this B5 car anyway).  Truth be told, it's debatable whether the Daytona documentation unearthed so far actually gives instruction on how to handle reflector bezels - but we know from a multitude of original examples how it "should" be done.  In my earlier post I was going from memory on Danny's research, although he did make this statement several years back:

As far as the marker light bezels go, well I'm going to say that they should be body color on that car. So far in my detection work on this, its about 75% to 25%. With 75% of cars having had body colored bezels, where as 25% had stripe color bezels on the 500's.

He probably has a newer tally, and may have drawn other conclusions about bezel colors by now.

[pettybird]

wasn't there a memo that more or less said 'hey dummies you're supposed to paint the bezels' from Chrysler to Creative?  i thought that existed. 

As far as one car having it over another, I'd do it based on personal preference...

[hemi68charger]

...
As far as one car having it over another, I'd do it based on personal preference...

[Ghoste]

Me personally I would likely do it whatever way it was shipped, but I'm okay with it either way.

[A383Wing]

someone mentioned vinyl on the bezel....could it be part of the decal they cut out for the opening in the quarter panel trimmed to fit the bezel?

[hemi68charger]

someone mentioned vinyl on the bezel....could it be part of the decal they cut out for the opening in the quarter panel trimmed to fit the bezel?

Not sure I've ever heard of that. But, what they would do was install the decal without the bezel installed, then they would slice an "x" in the decal. Then, they would shove the sidemarker reflector assembly in and secure....... So, you could see stripe vinyl on the inside of the trunk...

[Ghoste]

And the stripes weren't (aren't) vinyl, they are that thin synthetic they make decals from.  (it could be a form of vinyl I suppose but not the removable cling style)

[500Jon]

WoW that is really blue! Inside and outside!!!

I really like blue tooo, but a more practical black interior for me.
I suppose some cars were always destined to be trailer Queens!
Bet this car got its correct seats back with buildsheet.

Nice work fellas!!!

ps my 1/18 Ertl-500 has body painted bezels! So thats gotta be right LoL!

500Jon

[Kowal]

I suppose some cars were always destined to be trailer Queens!

500Jon

Hey, I drive mine!!

[TUFCAT]

my 1/18 Ertl-500 has body painted bezels! So thats gotta be right LoL!

[held1823]

perhaps ertl took the easiest path when modifying their charger r/t casting, much like creative did on the 1:1 scales. wasn't it ertl that released a general lee model kit with the aero rear window?


the matching interior/exterior colors have always been my favorite combos. blue/blue, red/red, green/green, etc.
black or white interiors look cool, but not COOL.


there was beauty in how cars used to be ordered. now you get your choice of two or three option group packages, making most cars one of a gazillion.

[Ghoste]

You can thank the Asian automakers for that.  Its cheaper and easier to only offer option packages.

[maxwellwedge]

Actually - I found the post musclecar era horrible when it came time for ordering. Too many ways to miss stuff, this package not available with that etc.....more confusing than Mothers day at Arnold Schwarzenegger's house. A million things to consider. I like the 2 or 3 trim level choices....base to loaded. My 2008 SRT8 Challenger only had a few options available....I think sunroof, tires and nav.

[Ghoste]

Hmm, an interesting counter take on it.

[held1823]

You can blame the Asian automakers for that.  Its cheaper and easier to only offer option packages.

fixed that one for you.

just kidding around with the quote, but you are correct.

[TUFCAT]

By reducing plant complexity the manufacturing costs are much less, and cars are cheaper.

[held1823]

fewer jobs (via automation) paying lower wages, combined with the cookie cutter methodology, certainly have reduced manufacturing costs. stockholders might be thrilled, but that savings has not been passed on the customer.

has anyone done a then-vs-now dollar comparison on a charger r/t? pricing for a new charger r/t starts at $30,500. this is a simplified look at it, but our daytona stickered for $4300. according to this calculator, that's $27,800 today.

add another 10% to that $27,800 figure, and you have the starting price on the new r/t. 

[TheAutoArchaeologist]

Lets get back on track here.  STRIPE REFLECTOR

Also here is the Tractor Shed 69 Hemi Charger 500's interior.  Blue interior, 4-speed as well.



Ryan

[69_500]

Sorry was put of town for 5 days. This car in question had its bezels body color before any work was done to the car. Not every 500 is like that but honestly I can not think off the top of my head which unrestored car it is but there is one where the bezels were actually stripe color. As far as ones that are body color there is Troy's old car, this Hemi 500, as well as the barn find one that Ryan posted. Both of the press release cars are still in original paint and the bezels are body color. The Propane X car had body color bezels. My car has body color bezels. Those are just off the top of my head. I am almost positive both of the other 500's that Ken had at his shop had bezels that were body color and they were also original paint cars to start with.

[Ghoste]

It seems odd to me that Ken is requiring proof when the vast majority of evidence is already there.  Also strange to me that someone who is such a stickler for details would put vinyl on the bezel and not paint it if he was sure that was the way it came?

[69_500]

Having problems with internet connection on my computer or I would post pictures of each of the above cars, but for now only thing that is online is this iPad.

Thought of two more while at kids Christmas program. The black Hemi car referred to as Speedy Greco car also has body color bezels. A Mr. Norms Hemi 500 I looked at also had body color bezels and was at 6,500 miles when I saw it. The Greco car is still under 1,800 miles too.

A third I just remembered is the black car that a board member here bought a little more than a year ago. Black with red interior, has black bezels and is probably 80-90% original paint. Jerry nerramore bought his 500 in 1969 and I have a picture of it from then and it has body colored bezels. Don Moody also a board member here bought his 500 brand new and it's bezels were also body color. Another example would be talkiemopar and his bronze 500.

I know there is at least one that had stripe colored bezels but I can not find my picture to back that one up, and Ghoste feel free to laugh but I can not remember what the VIN is to it either. I will try to think of it while sleeping tonight.

[Ghoste]

I don't if I would laugh about it but I am a little surprised.

[TheAutoArchaeologist]

Ken is just double checking.  He just wants to do what is right for the car.  If it is suppose to be body color, he will make sure it is right.

[maxwellwedge]

Having problems with internet connection on my computer or I would post pictures of each of the above cars, but for now only thing that is online is this iPad.

Thought of two more while at kids Christmas program. The black Hemi car referred to as Speedy Greco car also has body color bezels. A Mr. Norms Hemi 500 I looked at also had body color bezels and was at 6,500 miles when I saw it. The Greco car is still under 1,800 miles too.

A third I just remembered is the black car that a board member here bought a little more than a year ago. Black with red interior, has black bezels and is probably 80-90% original paint. Jerry nerramore bought his 500 in 1969 and I have a picture of it from then and it has body colored bezels. Don Moody also a board member here bought his 500 brand new and it's bezels were also body color. Another example would be talkiemopar and his bronze 500.

I know there is at least one that had stripe colored bezels but I can not find my picture to back that one up, and Ghoste feel free to laugh but I can not remember what the VIN is to it either. I will try to think of it while sleeping tonight.

The one in the G-S Dodge pic I posted has the bezels in the stripe color.