what's needed to get a 69 440 RT into mid 12s?

[Lord Warlock]

Like many here, I read plenty of magazines and forum topics, and see the all stock category where folks are running 11s or better.  Back in the days when I drove the charger daily, I always thought it was a beast of a car, and it performed very well with a totally stock motor, beating pretty much anything that lined up next to it, but I also wasn't stupid and didn't try running folks that were highly modified with similar cubes.  I'm pretty sure the car ran in the 13s with decent rubber, but also pretty sure it never came close to breaking 12s, much less running mid 12s.  I know on Fridays I'd lower air pressure in the rear tires to about 18lbs of pressure, and would get sidewall wrinkle and it would lift the nose high enough to see daylight under one of the front tires, but even then i was running wide bias ply's that were 12 inches wide and got pretty good traction if launched the right way.  Don't think it did wheelies, but it would do its best to try. 

Since I stopped driving the charger and just enjoyed looking at it in the garage, I've had modified turbo cars that likely would run into the 12s, and modified supercharged mustangs (04 cobra) that also had the potential to run mid to low 12s IF you wanted to thrash it hard enough where you risked half shafts or breaking something just to prove it would go that fast.  Those cars may have been that fast but didn't feel that fast if you know what i mean.  The Charger with the 440 always instilled a little fear into the equation that the other cars didn't, it just felt like it SHOULD run fast if prepped right.

What modifications are needed to get a stock bored 440 with a stock drivetrain to break into the 12s?  My car has 3.23 gears and an automatic which isn't usually known to be the best setup to go that fast.  It does however now ride on tires and wheels it always deserved to have,  11 inch magnum 500s with Nitto DRs, which should give it a bit more bite if it ever gets roadworthy enough to track test it.  The pure stock boys seem to be doing it with skinny wheels and tires.  I would think that they are stuck with the original style intake and exhaust manifolds that mine has.  Would I need to change the cam and rear gears to actually get it into the 12s, or a better torque converter, or modify the trans ratios? Right now its purely hypothetical as I'm pretty much just planning on getting it to drive safely at normal speeds and stop within reasonable distances.  The motor sounds as good today as it did in the old days, when i fire it up and let it run for a while.  It already looks better than the day i got it, the interior is in better shape than the day i got it, and even the engine itself looks better than the day i got it.  The original 440 has 69k original miles on it.  I like the lopey idle that the original cam has, I even enjoy the exhaust as it was designed from the factory, it just sounds like a musclecar should even with huge mufflers on it. (although it sounded meaner when i blew one of them round by making it backfire as a teen).

Interested to hear what it really takes. 

[JB400]

Wasn't Mr. Norm and other "tuners" just giving the cars a good tune up and getting into the 12's?

A 6 pack setup and 4.10 gears will put it in the 12's as well.

[myk]

I dunno man.  Weren't these cars low 15/high 14 second cars stock at best?  I was always under the impression that Chargers and cars like them are big beautiful pigs and need a good amount of massaging to break into the 12's and 11's...

[JB400]

Didn't Chrysler market the Scat Pack and the Rapid Transit cars to go 13's straight off the showroom floor?  I know tires where a limiting factor during that time.  I'd think a new set of modern radials and a good tune would get one of these cars into the 12's easy enough if it had the right gearing.

[myk]

Didn't Chrysler market the Scat Pack and the Rapid Transit cars to go 13's straight off the showroom floor?  I know tires where a limiting factor during that time.  I'd think a new set of modern radials and a good tune would get one of these cars into the 12's easy enough if it had the right gearing.

Hmmm....Good point; I'd be curious to know for sure...

[War wagon]

It's funny I'm reading this today, watched an episode of pass time last night and a 69 charger rt and a 70 challenger rt squared off in the combo round.
The Charger ran 12.00@ 116 mph with a 500 cu in motor..

Imhe, it takes A LOT to get one of these cars really moving.

At the very least you will need steeper gears, higher stall, more cam, more airflow ( aftermarket heads PORTED), more fuel etc etc.

[hemihead]

You would need a Hemi and put it on a diet . No way a stock 440 in one of these big fat beasts is going to run 12's .
That is the major misconception people have about these cars . Yes they were quick stock but not 12 second quick .
People just don't understand how much work and $$$ it takes to run 12's .

[XS29L9Bxxxxxx]

You would need a Hemi and put it on a diet . No way a stock 440 in one of these big fat beasts is going to run 12's .
That is the major misconception people have about these cars . Yes they were quick stock but not 12 second quick .
People just don't understand how much work and $$$ it takes to run 12's .

That, and the fact that even into the early 1990s, a 12 second car was seriously quick!  And rare!

And if you had a (street) car that ran into the 11s, you were king!

[wingcar]

It's amazing how time has a way of making everything look better....case in point being just how fast where our Chargers back in the day.  I remember the general mind set back then was that 14 sec. was fast and most street cars were measured by this figure.  If you had a street car that could get you into the low 13 sec range, a lot of people started referring to it as a racer.

If you are using old magazine articles as your point of reference...forget it....most of those cars were at the very least "Super Tuned" and in a few cases they were not even stock.  The factories had no problem with sending out a "ringer" for a magazine test drive, and they did in some cases more often than not.
If you want to get your Charger into the 12 second range I would think it would become more strip than street.
 
I remember my first time on the strip at Irwindale in Southern California.  I had a stock 69 Charger 440 auto, RT/SE with all the power accessories equipped with radial tires.  Lights turn green and I floor it...the radials spinning like mad before finally heading down the strip....Afterwards the guy hands me my time slip....12.5 seconds....WOW my Charger is really fast!  Then it hit me...they had handled me the slip form the guy I lined up against...a full race early T-bird.  My slip was more like 15 second....which was not bad for someone who didn't know what they were doing....LOL

Bottomline, if you plan on enjoying your Charger on the street...forget about 12 second quarter mile times....just enjoy cruising..... 

[RECHRGD]

Back in '68 I had a new R/T with the 440, auto, 323 combo.  It ran mid 14's at the old San Fernando dragstrip, bone stock on poly glass tires.  After putting headers on it, it ran a best of 14 flat at 101mph at Erwindale on the same stock tires.  My current Charger was built with 12 second times in mind, but I haven't seen it yet.  It's got all the standard goodies such as aluminum heads, extreme energy high lift comp cam, RPM manifold, Proform 750 double pumper, headers, shift kit, high stall converter, 355 gears w/ gear vendors overdrive and 275/60/15 radials on the rear.  It has Dyno'd at 340 rwhp in the normally bad air of Spokane.  I still have traction problems and can't launch the car any better than a 2.3 60ft time.  I know the car is capable of high twelves if I put some slicks on it and ran it at a track close to sea level.  These are heavy cars and it takes good power and traction to run quick.

[War wagon]

It's amazing how time has a way of making everything look better....case in point being just how fast where our Chargers back in the day.  I remember the general mind set back then was that 14 sec. was fast and most street cars were measured by this figure.  If you had a street car that could get you into the low 13 sec range, a lot of people started referring to it as a racer.

If you are using old magazine articles as your point of reference...forget it....most of those cars were at the very least "Super Tuned" and in a few cases they were not even stock.  The factories had no problem with sending out a "ringer" for a magazine test drive, and they did in some cases more often than not.
If you want to get your Charger into the 12 second range I would think it would become more strip than street.
 
I remember my first time on the strip at Irwindale in Southern California.  I had a stock 69 Charger 440 auto, RT/SE with all the power accessories equipped with radial tires.  Lights turn green and I floor it...the radials spinning like mad before finally heading down the strip....Afterwards the guy hands me my time slip....12.5 seconds....WOW my Charger is really fast!  Then it hit me...they had handled me the slip form the guy I lined up against...a full race early T-bird.  My slip was more like 15 second....which was not bad for someone who didn't know what they were doing....LOL

Bottomline, if you plan on enjoying your Charger on the street...forget about 12 second quarter mile times....just enjoy cruising..... 

I agree with you 100% with everything you said Except the last line
These days with today's technology ( strokers and aluminum heads, aluminum rads) it IS POSSIBLE to run mid 11's ON PUMP gas and I plan on doing just that.
And my car will be driven as many miles as possible each summer.  
I intend on driving to the track, swapping to slicks, adjusting the cal tracs and putting the hurt on the blue oval and bow tie crowd then swapping back and driving home.
My father has been doing that in his belvedere 1 for yrs 
His car weights 4200lbs with driver and has run a best of 10.74@126mph. FULL INTERIOR STREET CAR
Granted he has made sacrifices in the quest for a faster et as far as drive ability goes.... 4:10 gears on the hwy aren't very practical .
So I'm building my Charger more on the street side of performance but using what I've learned from dad I fully expect a 11 sec car that can be driven ANYWHERE ANYTIME.

[War wagon]

My fathers 10 sec street car
I won't cage my charger. The cutoff for cars without a cage is 11.49 after that you need safety equipment and it really stops feeling like a street car. Even if it ends up faster, I'd rather back off the throttle at the strip than cage it.

[Back N Black]

I have a couple of friends with stock 440's and they can't believe the power? I'm like, really? I would never build a 440 back to stock, especially in a Charger.

[tan top]

was going to build this  motor  years ago for the charger ( full weight street driven )  , well was thinking about it  , recon it would of  be enough for high 12s or low 13s ,   440  +30 ,   10:5:1  worked / ported , valves etc  915 iron heads ,   prolly cheaper to use 440 stealth heads now ,  mechanical purple cam .528 /284 duration , original torker intake , 850 double pumper , 1 -7/8 hookers  , 3500  stall converter ,  4:10 gears with a sure grip , 29 inch slicks & what ever width   will fit inside a stock wheel well ( never got that far measuring ) 
doubt it would of been much fun on the street with 4:10 gears


like whats been said , easier to do today with all the stroker motor combinations & aftermarket cylinder head hardware out there now ,

[Lord Warlock]

wow,  lots of responses in a short time.  When i first got the car I went to the library and dug through microfiche for hours (what else does a kid living at home have to do) and read all the tests from motor trend, car and driver and other magazines.  The 69 RT charger did run a 13.90 with 3:55 gears whereas the car it ran against, a 69 GTX 440 with 4.10 gears ran a 13.75, so the cars albiet being a bit heavy and full sized could break into the 13s.  Car Craft and Hot Rod tested them as well in the 70s and they ran high 13s.  The 440 six pack roadrunner ran a 13.43 which was about the quickest time I saw except for the Hemi cars on track rubber.  

Being an old fart who has had the car since he was a kid, I'm well aware that 12s were considered street kings back in the 70s, the bias ply tires just couldn't grip for shit with the torque these things put out,  even with L50-15s on my car it would spin them through all three gears if you didn't lift off to get traction.  I never even considered trying to get into the 11s, that was race car territory when i was growing up.  I find it humorous that every kid on the street thinks cars should be running 10s.  I remember in the early 80s, articles about a mustang II with a 500ci motor and tubbed wheelwells was the street racing king nationwide, and it only ran mid 10s.

While street racing friends who had hot rods back then, I used a stopwatch to time mine in the quarter and it was running 13s somewhere and i was fine with that.  Since then i've modded and raced numerous cars of mine, but only taken one car to the track and actually seen what it could do, and the best i could get it was a 13.20, but i was also having problems with the crappy shifter that the linkage would flex under full throttle and would block me from catching 3rd more often than not, I refused to thrash it harder since i was almost 1000 miles from home at the time and had to drive home, the car had just had the transmission rebuilt and I didn't want to break anything.  When i did get home safely a couple days later, i figured out the problem with the linkage, trimmed off a small section and after that the car shifted great.  Just a factory design issue on some cars.  But sold the car soon afterwards so i could buy a new challenger r/t.  The new car is a little slower, but still should break into the 13s without much hardship. I'm at sea level so don't have to worry about thin air or high elevation.  

As i mentioned in the original post, the street stock class articles indicate the car must have factory intakes, full exhaust, etc and they seem to be easily getting cars into the 12s and lower, so it must be possible, but i presume they are doing full mods on the heads such as porting and polishing them, as well as cleaning or honing the exhaust ports on the manifolds.  I imagine they are mostly using 4.10 gears or close to it for drag times.  I personally have no desire to drive my car on the interstate with a 4.10 gear, the 3.23 is a far better cruising gear.  But I can see getting a higher stall converter, and adding a shift kit or having the trans worked on a bit to quicken things a little.  While i'd like to see the car hit 12s someday, i'm not planning on ruining the street friendly configuration just to be able to brag about hitting 12s.  Its just a bit embarrassing to have a 3.0L v6 with two tiny turbos that will eat the 440 alive on the track, as well as have a much higher top end.  But on the other hand, the charger will always look better sitting in a parking spot, in the driveway, or cruising down the road than any other car i've owned.  I can resolve the embarrassment situation by selling off the stealth turbo, the wife has been bitching at me for years to sell that car, she can't stand the fact that I kept it after i paid it off, and just parked it in the garage next to the charger and went out and got a newer car to drive.  She thinks old cars should be sold off. (not counting the charger of course, she's never nagged at me to get rid of it...probably knows i'd be tempted to let her go first. )  Gonna have to get rid of the stealth soon anyway,  need the storage space to house my dad's old show volvo he bought new, he's getting up there and doesn't expect to live more than another 7 years or so.  (mid 80s) the volvo is in the will to come to me afterwards, he's been selling off most of his other toys over the last six months, only keeping the 1 volvo, 1 1951 mercury 2 door, and his Kawasaki crotch rocket when he needs a thrill ride.  He takes the cars to shows most the time now, just sold his 2nd volvo 544 back up car and his harley road king. 

[Cooter]

Depends on your threshold for BS. 12 sec. 4100 lb all motor car won't be very street  friendly.
Also, how much you gonna spend?
I could get it in the 12's cheap, but YOU may not like how its done.

[myk]

You would need a Hemi and put it on a diet . No way a stock 440 in one of these big fat beasts is going to run 12's .
That is the major misconception people have about these cars . Yes they were quick stock but not 12 second quick .
People just don't understand how much work and $$$ it takes to run 12's .

Yeah, I figured as much.  Ah well...

[Homerr]

Back in '68 I had a new R/T with the 440, auto, 323 combo.  It ran mid 14's at the old San Fernando dragstrip, bone stock on poly glass tires.  After putting headers on it, it ran a best of 14 flat at 101mph at Erwindale on the same stock tires.  My current Charger was built with 12 second times in mind, but I haven't seen it yet.  It's got all the standard goodies such as aluminum heads, extreme energy high lift comp cam, RPM manifold, Proform 750 double pumper, headers, shift kit, high stall converter, 355 gears w/ gear vendors overdrive and 275/60/15 radials on the rear.  It has Dyno'd at 340 rwhp in the normally bad air of Spokane.  I still have traction problems and can't launch the car any better than a 2.3 60ft time.  I know the car is capable of high twelves if I put some slicks on it and ran it at a track close to sea level.  These are heavy cars and it takes good power and traction to run quick.

Plus higher octane gas back in the day?

[bull]

The first thing you need is a lot of spare money. After that it's just a matter of prioritizing.

[War wagon]

The first thing you need is a lot of spare money. After that it's just a matter of prioritizing.

If you wanna play...... You GOTTA PAY

[firefighter3931]

From my experience you will need a legitimate 500hp to get that car into the 12's. After that comes the hard part ; chassis, gearing, traction. It all has to work together to achieve the desired ET.

My old combo was a 446 with mildly ported E-heads, 4200stall and 4.10 gears with Drag radials. Best ET was 11.68@116 & the raceweight was 4100. These cars are heavy beasts and it takes some power to get all that mass moving downtrack. 



Ron

[1974dodgecharger]

Damn firefighter  446 in 12 that's impressive.

[Troy]

Damn firefighter  446 in 12 that's impressive.

This is Ron's car from a few years ago when it still had the 446. Looks kinda, sorta like stock from this distance!


Troy

[c00nhunterjoe]

I won't bore you with quotes and stories so I will keep it short. Its all about the total package. You don't have to break the bank to go 12's. And it doesn't have to be a track car either. My puny, underappreciated 383 dips into the 12's and I put over 5000 real street miles on it this year. Its reliable enough that I havnt had to repair it since I assembled it in 2000, runs on 93, and is a blast on the street.

Take a bone stock car and put a big cammed "race" engine in it and no, it will be no fun on the street and will break parts on the car. But build a mild, well rounded engine, with a transmission and converter matched to it along with a rear gear and tire that fits the combo as well....... and you're on the right track.

[hemihead]

I won't bore you with quotes and stories so I will keep it short. Its all about the total package. You don't have to break the bank to go 12's. And it doesn't have to be a track car either. My puny, underappreciated 383 dips into the 12's and I put over 5000 real street miles on it this year. Its reliable enough that I havnt had to repair it since I assembled it in 2000, runs on 93, and is a blast on the street.

Take a bone stock car and put a big cammed "race" engine in it and no, it will be no fun on the street and will break parts on the car. But build a mild, well rounded engine, with a transmission and converter matched to it along with a rear gear and tire that fits the combo as well....... and you're on the right track.

Kinda like the guys who take a stock or near stock 440 and stick in the biggest cam they can find and a 1150 Holley carb on it
because they think biggest means best