House Electrical Wiring Help Needed.....

[A383Wing]

years ago, we took the baseboard heaters out of the house and had a gas furnace installed....all works well. I want to put one baseboard heater back into one room. I left the breakers in the panel, left the wall thermostat on the wall, and the wires that connected to the baseboard heater are still at the base of the wall.

My questions are this:

how do I know what voltage I need? 110 or 220? There are two 20a breakers tied together at panel. What would wires coming out of wall be tested at? Should there be 4 wires or only 3?

The room is only 10x20.....I was thinking maybe a 5' to 6' heater from Lowes for around $60

Any help here would be appreciated...thanks guys

Bryan

[tsmithae]

If there are a pair of breakers tied together (double pole) you most likely originally had 220v baseboards.  They do sell both models and you can make either work but the 220v sounds right for what you had. 

what does your thermostat look like? Are there 2 wires going through it or 4?

If  there are 4, it is a 220 and at the baseboard you will need to connect the red and black supply wires to the black wires at the baseboard.  The ground should connect either to a green wire or a screw. 

Any other questions or if I'm unclear, feel free to ask. 

[skip68]

That would be 220 Brian.    If you have 3 wires, 2 will be hot (118v+-) and a ground.   If YOU have 4 wires 2 will be hot, 1 will be neutral and 1 will be ground.        Use a meter.    Between the 2 hots you should have 230-240 volts.    if you have 2 hot wires coming out of the wall you can use 120 or 220v.   It's up to you.   

[A383Wing]

thanks guys..I'll check it out tomorrow with my meter...if you don't hear back from me, I probably lit myself up like a 2 month old dead Christmas tree during the testing...

I will have to pull the thermostat off the wall and see how it's wired...

Bryan

[RECHRGD]

A 230 volt circuit can be controlled by either a single (two wire) or double (four wire) pole thermostat.  Do not count wires to determine voltage.  Use a meter, but being that the circuit originates from a double pole breaker, it's almost a sure thing that you have 230 volt at the heater.

[Mytur Binsdirti]

I can see it now.................

[74bluecharger440]

the Lowes baseboard heaters have their own thermostats built in

[A383Wing]

played with this wiring a bit today....I have 3 wires from wall, one black, one white, and one without any insulation, copper bare wire. Had my meter on the wires, had the wife start flipping breakers at the panel to see which double breaker was the one for the upstairs room. She flipped all the 5 that were for the heaters...nothing showed up on my voltmeter..and yea, I had it on AC voltage before anyone asks.

I kinda thought this was strange, because all the baseboard heaters we had worked when we got the house. So I took the panel cover off and found no wires at all on any of the double pole breakers.

Now, I'm guessing that there should be a white wire and a black wire to each of the double pole breakers, right? Now I gotta find which pair of wires goes to the upstairs room.

And I took the wall t-stat off and there is only 2 wires going to the t-stat

What next?

[J.Bond]

Bryan;

To determine the wire circuit for upstairs is easy. Strip and twist together the white and black wires at the location you are intending to install said baseboard. Head back to the panel,  take your meter and switch it to the Ohm scale, and begin checking each of the old baseboard circuts that have been disconnected. Because you have twisted the wires together on one circuit, you should only get a reading from that circuit. Set your meter on a midway ohm setting, with the meter on and the test leads not touching each other , the meter should read O L , once, you touch the meter leads together, you should get a resistance value,  we do not care what the value is, it is just proving a complete circuit. and that is what you want to achieve. Test the spare circuts until you find one with a resistance, then to double check, mark wire , untwist wires and check again, circuit should say O L , reconnect, and check again.

Once you identify the circut , yes you may attach white to one pole and the black to the other pole giving you 220 volts. An easy identifier for later service work is to mark the white lead with blue or red tape to represent a voltage lead, not a common lead.

I would wire for 220, as wired to 120.  At 120 you will only get half the wattage  and a smaller baseboard heater.

[RECHRGD]

I assume that the wires were taken off of the breakers for safety reasons and are still in the panel.  Yes, for a 230 volt circuit both the black and white will go to the double pole breaker, one on each pole.  The bare wire will go to the ground buss.  You can locate which wires go to the bedroom by taking the unenergized black and white in the bedroom and wire nutting them together.  Then turn the thermostat to high and go back to the panel.  Put your meter on the OHM setting.  Put the two leads of the meter together and you will see a zero OHM reading on the meter.  Then go to the pairs of black and white wires in the panel and put one meter lead on a white and one on a black of each pair.  When you find the pair that gives you a zero OHM reading, you've found it.  Of coarse, this assumes that none of the other pairs are tied together.  If you have a mix of 20 and 30 amp breakers, be sure that you don' put the smaller wires (#12) on a 30 amp.  When the circuit feeds multiple heaters, you will need to do more work with the ohmmeter to trace out the complete circuit.  You may want to call an electrician anyway......

[RECHRGD]

Bryan, just to clarify, a 120 volt heater will put out as much heat as a 230 volt as long as that is the voltage that they are rated for at any given wattage.  If you feed a 230 volt heater with 120 volts you will get almost no heat.  If you feed a 120 volt heater with 230 volts you will see smoke.....

[J.Bond]

Bryan, just to clarify, a 120 volt heater will put out as much heat as a 230 volt as long as that is the voltage that they are rated for at any given wattage. 

Not

He only has a 20 amp circut, a 20 amp 120 volt heater , will give off only half of what a 20 amp 220 volt heater will.

Ohm's law.

[RECHRGD]

Bryan, just to clarify, a 120 volt heater will put out as much heat as a 230 volt as long as that is the voltage that they are rated for at any given wattage. 

Not

He only has a 20 amp circut, a 20 amp 120 volt heater , will give off only half of what a 20 amp 220 volt heater will.

Ohm's law.

I think your confusing my comment.  A watt it's a watt.  A 1500 watt 120 volt heater will put out 1500 watts of heat.  A 240 volt 1500 watt heater will put out 1500 watts of heat..

[A383Wing]

I think the wires were taken off the breakers for safety...and I thought about taking the black & white one upstairs and connecting them together, then turning on the t-stat so it closes, then testing the wires at the panel for continuity...seems like we're thinking the same thing, yes?

My problem is...and don't laugh...is that I'm scared to death in sticking my hand in the panel to find the wires that were un-hooked.....so many wires in there ......

I looked at my double pole breakers...they are tied together and each of the 2 levers says "20A" ......so is it 20A total or 20A each making the breaker 40A?

yea..I don't wanna see smoke.....been there, done that

[RECHRGD]

It's 20amp per phase, so you cannot figure 40amps, as far as wire sizing goes.  I don't want you to get hurt, so if this freaks you out, I would definitely call an electrician.  It would be an easy thing and shouldn't cost you much.  If you really want to do this yourself, get a flashlight and turn off the main breaker to the panel before putting your hands in there.  Always test for voltage before you begin.  Ad yes we're on the same page.....

[A383Wing]

yea..I'm not really comfortable with sticking my hand in there and finding the wires that are buried. Probably due to the fact that I have been "zapped" a while back...was not a pleasant experience.

I could have had this done by now if the wires were still on the breakers....the installing the heater upstairs and wiring it up is easy.

Guess I need to call someone to find these wires and connect them to a breaker.

Not understanding the pair of 20A on the double pole breaker though....does it mean that it takes 20A to pop it or 40?

[RECHRGD]

Exceeding 20 amps on either phase will trip the breaker.  I think it would be a good call to call a professional.  More likely than not, that circuit probably hits one or more Heater locations before getting to that bedroom.

[Bob T]

Call the professional, its his job and indemnity.
Dont risk electrocution or burning your house down by doing something incorrectly after asking questions on the internet. I'm an electrical contractor and I recommend that you call someone local to sort it out for you safely and quickly.

[skip68]

+1   If you don't feel comfortable then Don't touch it.       An electrician will come out and do a circuit trace and have you ready to roll in no time.   

[A383Wing]

Called a guy that used to come into our repair shop...he came over and found the wires that run to the upstairs circuit on the first bundle he tested. His testing method was the same as was suggested and how I would have done it....tie the 2 wires upstairs together and OHM out the 2 at the panel....I told him he needs to buy a lottery ticket now.

He also mentioned that the wires to upstairs are 14 gauge instead 12ga...he's gonna bring by a 15a double breaker and put it in place of the 20a breaker........now I gotta go to Lowes or somewhere and get a 1500w baseboard heater. He will be back on Wednesday to connect the wires to the panel & new breaker.

[RECHRGD]

Perfect!

[RECHRGD]

Call the professional, its his job and indemnity.
Dont risk electrocution or burning your house down by doing something incorrectly after asking questions on the internet. I'm an electrical contractor and I recommend that you call someone local to sort it out for you safely and quickly.

Bob, I too am an electrical contractor, well a retired one.  I thought I had seen it all until I recently purchased a rental property and it passed all the required inspections.  When I started digging into it, I couldn't believe the the place hadn't burned down decades ago.  I spent the last month crawling around underneath it and in the attic.  Had to replace the panel as the breakers and buss bars were burning.  It is amazing what some homeowners can do just to make something work and be ignorant as to the safety issues of it.  Ignorance is bliss, I guess.  Otherwise they wouldn't have slept in that place overnight.....

[Bob T]

Ok, cool. Glad to hear you got someone in to have a look at it 383Wing, would hate to read of a different outcome.

Yeah Rechrgd, have seen a few horror stories of domestic or industrial wiring here too, I wonder how some of them just didnt catch fire. I really cant stand doing domestic anymore, climbing under or into houses just doesnt do it for me, mainly into just industrial machine based projects or marine based systems now.

[A383Wing]

Update:

purchased a 1500w 6' long baseboard heater from Home Depot, had it all wired in last Tuesday. My electrician guy came over Wednesday afternoon and installed a couple 15a breakers in place of the pair of 20's that were there...he connected the 3 wires and now heat is present in the upstairs room.

I was concerned about the baseboard heater making all sorts of noise like metal expanding & popping when it's on....but it's really surprisingly quiet when heating the room.

Cost: $60 for heater, installed myself......$25 for my electrician guy to come over, find the correct wires, install the breaker, and connect wires to panel.

Having heat in the room: "Priceless"

[Bob T]

Good to hear, that'll be a bonus now the weather is turning cold I guess.
$25 for the Sparky - what a bargain! What are the standard charge out rates over there for a domestic electrician?
Just interested thats all. We are talking contract charge out rates not employees hourly pay rate.

Here, a person would expect to pay probably $55 - $70 /hr plus probably some surcharge for mileage. Industrial electrical contractors would be around $60 - $75, marine $70 - $85 and techs for industrial machine service or automation engineers would be up around $90 - $125 , all with a km travel charge as well .
Probably employees pay rates for a tradesman with experience would range from around $24 - $34 with a work vehicle included

[A383Wing]

I don't know what the standard rates are out here....probably around what you posted above I would think. When I was working I used to work on his cars at our shop....he has done a few things for me in the past...like make a separate circuit for our microwave oven last year in the master panel.

[RECHRGD]

Yea Bob, the rates around here are close to what you listed for a union shop.  But wait, that was when I retired six years ago.  I doubt they've gone up much in this crappy economy now.....

[Bob T]

Ok, cheers Guys, just interested to see how it things stack up in your local areas.

[ws23rt]

I agree that the rates seem to be comparable and have not gone up much in the last few years. However the value of money has gone down and continues to do so. A qualified tradesman has been becoming cheaper every day for quite a while.
There will be a correction soon.