Fuel Injection

[mhinders]

Thats intersting too, did he explain why?

Here is the thread, hope you can see it:
http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=104&t=46989&p=345861#p345861

Here is the text:


Re: Success! Engine Masters Challenge 2012

Postby dieselgeek » Fri Dec 28, 2012 6:42 am

    SwedCharger-67 wrote:Excellent results, congrats! And a nice tribute to the late Dan Miller.

    Why did you go for throttle body injection instead of injection close to the intake valve?

    Martin, Sweden, Mopar 512 E85 MS



We tested both, the up-high injector placement absolutely slaughtered the aimed-at-valve position's event score. The trade off was, the higher up the injector the more difficult (or impossible) to get the tune correct especially during throttle transition as the dyno loads the engine. With down-low injectors aimed at the valve, the tune was simple to have good control but up high some cylinders went dangerously lean at transition. For any street application I'd move the injectors down low, but for max Engine Masters score they worked best in the shower position.

[Ghoste]

 

[MSRacing89]

I haven't actually but it just makes sense.  If atomized fuel from a carb puddles at low airflow I can't see it being any different just because the metering is controlled electrically.
I see benefits to TBI as far as tuning and cold starts but the performance gain?  And I'm with you on the costs.

I really think this should be more of an informative thread on EFI, such as experience with certain products good and bad, gains and losses, etc.  Comparing a carb to EFI is simply not a productive argument anymore.  The advantages far outway the carb in so many ways that it's really just lack of experience or bitterness towards EFI that will push someone have negative comments.

Personally, I run both and have not a bad thing to say about either when properly set-up.  But for what we do....the driving, elevation changes, track time, start - stop, making on the fly AFR/ timing adjustments,etc.  Not even a comparison.

[Ghoste]

I guess it might also depend on if you were selling them or not too since they are still a costly way to go.
I'm not arguing there are no benefits.  I'm wondering if the costs at this time make the benefits worthwhile and from what has been presented so far I have to say that in my situation they as yet do not.
The cost has certainly prevented me from seeking the experience.  As for being bitter about one device supplanting another, well, I really have no response to that.

[Cooter]

I haven't actually but it just makes sense.  If atomized fuel from a carb puddles at low airflow I can't see it being any different just because the metering is controlled electrically.
I see benefits to TBI as far as tuning and cold starts but the performance gain?  And I'm with you on the costs.

.  Comparing a carb to EFI is simply not a productive argument anymore.  The advantages far outway the carb in so many ways that it's really just lack of experience or bitterness towards EFI that will push someone have negative comments.

EFI is what I've been around and working on for over 25 years. It is the greatest thing since sliced bread, but to make a statement such as this really imo shows bitterness and lack of understanding. It has always been and always will be about the cost.
No way in hell ANYBODY save a few that just have to have the latest gagetry will spend $4k for a little better drivability.
Not when they can get a used 750 Holley and intake for an 1/8 of the price. I'd say wait till prices come down and your comment 'might' hold water, but F.I. systems have been out long enough they shouldn't cost the way they do and you still have to tune the badass kits just like the Holley.
One can argue fuel mileage, drivability, etc. All they want. I got a 5.9 port f.I. in my 99 Ram. It still won't get into the 20's for mileage if you dropped it out of an airplane. I have a customer with an Eddy carb with working choke that runs right with my truck cold too.

Money, money, money....its all about the Benjamins.

[Cooter]

One of these days, I WILL run a Ford EEC4 Cobra mustang computer with Ford 460 injectors and  Ford truck T body set up all on the cheap, on a 440 Chrysler to prove f.I. doesn't have to cost out the ass.
I refuse to spend over $1500.00 on F.I.....

[MSRacing89]

One of these days, I WILL run a Ford EEC4 Cobra mustang computer with Ford 460 injectors and  Ford truck T body set up all on the cheap, on a 440 Chrysler to prove f.I. doesn't have to cost out the ass.
I refuse to spend over $1500.00 on F.I.....

I apologize, the OP did not mention anything about cost so I was not focusing on that portion of it.  Sounds like you have a done a pretty good job steering this thread in that direction.  So let us know when you get done developing your FI system and then I suppose he can make a more educated decision.

In the mean time, if the OP has any other specific questions maybe we can crack on.

[Dino]

Would a sequential FI system, like the one Redmist built, be much better than the Fast system?   This would be for a daily driven Charger with 440 and T-56.

My goal is to have a car that is as (or near) reliable as a modern car with the best of both worlds in drivability and fuel mileage.  Not looking for extremes, just a more efficient fuel burn.

[Cooter]

Would a sequential FI system, like the one Redmist built, be much better than the Fast system?   This would be for a daily driven Charger with 440 and T-56.

My goal is to have a car that is as (or near) reliable as a modern car with the best of both worlds in drivability and fuel mileage.  Not looking for extremes, just a more efficient fuel burn.

Redmist has come the closest I've ever seen to a $1500.00 f. I. Set up, but I'm sure it requires some knowhow, tuning expertise, and exotic, custom parts.
I would like to see yu hit that goal using something one can readily get from a junkyard.

[Dino]

Would a sequential FI system, like the one Redmist built, be much better than the Fast system?   This would be for a daily driven Charger with 440 and T-56.

My goal is to have a car that is as (or near) reliable as a modern car with the best of both worlds in drivability and fuel mileage.  Not looking for extremes, just a more efficient fuel burn.

Redmist has come the closest I've ever seen to a $1500.00 f. I. Set up, but I'm sure it requires some knowhow, tuning expertise, and exotic, custom parts.
I would like to see yu hit that goal using something one can readily get from a junkyard.

Budget wise that may be possible, but I do not want to invest the time to learn all this stuff right now.  I have 15 credits of science to cram in my head over the next few months so in my spare time I will do little more than drool, look dazed and watch the teletubbies.   

[Cooter]

Damn Dino, don't tell me your a 'blister pack' hot rodder??? Lol.

[Dino]

Damn Dino, don't tell me your a 'blister pack' hot rodder??? Lol.

Not really no but with this amount of work to do, the car has to take a back seat.  I'm already into several projects on this car that I'd like to finish before it gets nice and warm again, no need to add another!   

[ws23rt]

My two wheel Dodge project required port fuel injection because there was no room for a Tbody on top of the engine. I had to let the incoming air access from below the intake.

Another of several needs that FI answered is ease of starting. I have two motorcycle batteries and they can't crank for long.

The cost is high---My whole system including ignition (a package) was $4000.

BTW It has been a while since I bought the system and have not yet started it. It's from --Mass-flo efi--- If anyone has experience with them that I need to know please give me a heads up.

[Cooter]

There's a few Bikes in the club, but I can't never say I've seen one with that much motor. I can think of ALOT better uses in my garage for that engine though.

[ws23rt]

There's a few Bikes in the club, but I can't never say I've seen one with that much motor. I can think of ALOT better uses in my garage for that engine though.

This motor can live another life but for now it is living a vision that goes back to 1969.  A close friend and I were going to do this with a 392 but things changed. Others have made it work but this has been a fun mechanical art project and a tribute to my good old friend Bob that so wanted to ride it for what it could do. He passed away more than a year ago. My right hand twitches as well thinking about it.

[Ghoste]

I can't imagine the torque lean that thing will make when you crack the throttle.

[polywideblock]

so has anybody used the msd atomic fuel injection system  ?     http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=161032874414&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:top:en

[D69charger]

at the cost of all these systems.... I will just be sticking with the carb for now.  Maybe if prices come down to somewhere reasonable... or I win the lottery.... then I can look at F.I.

[cdr]

so has anybody used the msd atomic fuel injection system  ?     http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=161032874414&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:top:en

yes,it works great for what it is,CC put it on that 69 tv show car,i went through it & reset it up,it is set up now with a returnless fuel system & has burned up a pump already, so am going to put a intank pump & sump with return line.

[cdr]

also have the ez efi on my other brand car,it is port fuel batch fire,BUT for educational purposes i will explain this,,on the t body injection you can have puddling in the intake manifold,on port fuel inj that is NOT sequential,you have basically the same problem cause the fuel is sprayed in what the call batch fire or bank fire,so lets say the left bank fires all 4 injectors on that side,now you have fuel just sitting there waiting for the valve to open & FUEL CONTROL is not near as good as sequential port injection.  moral of the story is if your not going with sequential efi, might as well go with tbody efi,cause it is much cheaper & about the same as non seq port inj.  

[Homerr]

FAST 2.0 on a 484ci Hemi

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXiX3EBT9dE


Check the youtube comments regarding blowers.

[redmist]

I wanted to add a comment about fuel pooling, or sitting on a valve.

I have found that with my sequential system, I get better results (Idle/drivability) By manipulating the injector angle (Software timing of spray) to fire the injector on the back of the hot closed valve just before it opens. Theory is you get full injection before turbulance begins on intake, and the hot valve helps atomize some of the fuel.

It can be felt in the car at idle just changing injector angle by 15, or 20 degree's.

What I am getting at, is fuel sitting on a valve can be made to be a good thing if employed correctly. 

[ws23rt]

I wanted to add a comment about fuel pooling, or sitting on a valve.

I have found that with my sequential system, I get better results (Idle/drivability) By manipulating the injector angle (Software timing of spray) to fire the injector on the back of the hot closed valve just before it opens. Theory is you get full injection before turbulance begins on intake, and the hot valve helps atomize some of the fuel.

It can be felt in the car at idle just changing injector angle by 15, or 20 degree's.

What I am getting at, is fuel sitting on a valve can be made to be a good thing if employed correctly. 

That makes good sense   It also shows that room for improvement can be had in many ways and what may work for a particular engine package may not show improvement in another.

[redmist]

Where you will see power increases on these setups is in the manipulation of timing. I don't know how in depth the timing goes on a V 2.0 FAST setup, but if it's simply mimicking a distributor as an "All in by" then that is unfortunate. Being able to slowly pull timing out a few degrees after the engine has reached peak torque has netted some Horse Power on the top end for many guys. The 16x16 Map that I use on the megasquirt is awesome for that.

Hopefully I will be able to prove some of this with my own setup come spring time. I can't wait to start thrashing on my car again!