Fuel Injection

[D69charger]

I have a 497 stroker build with a carb setup now that made great power on the dyno and is very fun to drive.... just wondering what the bonus side of fuel injection would be?  Carb is tuned pretty good right now so it is very drivable.  Would I see a power increase?  And also... what else has to be upgraded with fuel injection?  Would I have to change tank... etc?

[Ghoste]

You could well see a power increase with injection, there typically is.  Although a well tuned carb can givve it a run for its money.  Bonuses are quicker starts as a rule, better cold operation as a rule, many times there will also be better mileage as a rule.  You won't need to change the tank but the better injection setups do require more fuel pressure but I think many of the kits include an inline electric pump.  A lot of them need a return line plumbed back to the tank.

[Mike DC]

 
EFI is basically using a computer to constantly adjust the motor's tuning on-the-fly.  

If you picked one RPM and one set of conditions to set everything for (read: dragstrip), then a carb can be just as good.  But that's not how the real world works.  The times when EFI shines is during cold starts, varying RPMs, changes in elevations, temps, etc.  

The EFI computer's tuning map needs to be set up well for the motor or it won't improve on the carb.  It needs a certain amount of setup tuning when you first install it, or it won't know enough to work with the motor.  (You can tune a carb too, but you won't make a 500cfm carb act like an 850cfm.  Some baseline decisions have to be made.)  

[MSRacing89]

I have a 497 stroker build with a carb setup now that made great power on the dyno and is very fun to drive.... just wondering what the bonus side of fuel injection would be?  Carb is tuned pretty good right now so it is very drivable.  Would I see a power increase?  And also... what else has to be upgraded with fuel injection?  Would I have to change tank... etc?

For me, road course and performance driving it's a no brainer.  We run the latest EZ 2.0 system and it been a welcome addition.  The throttle response is the first thing you notice as it has 8 injectors under the throttle blades.  There no delay or need for vacuum to get a signal.  Although you still need the moderate vacuum signal (8") for whole system to work.  You still need to know what your engine needs, as the common mistake is to think you can lean the motor out and run 14.7:1 AFR.  This is not the case, and actually when it was all said and done our AFR's are very close to the carb set-up we had.  This set-up also locks out the distributor and gives you digital control over your timing.

You have to install it right, perfect wiring, perfect exhaust and well thought out fuel delivery system.  This is not for everyone, but as time goes and they continue to develop, you will hard time not putting one of these on.  Lastly,  there will be minimal gain, and possibly a slight loss in MPG.  The only gain you may be able to find is you can adjust the AFR's on the fly, so on a long drive you reach down and lean her out with a push of the button.

[WHITE AND RED 69]

For me, road course and performance driving it's a no brainer.  We run the latest EZ 2.0 system and it been a welcome addition.  The throttle response is the first thing you notice as it has 8 injectors under the throttle blades.  There no delay or need for vacuum to get a signal.  Although you still need the moderate vacuum signal (8") for whole system to work.  You still need to know what your engine needs, as the common mistake is to think you can lean the motor out and run 14.7:1 AFR.  This is not the case, and actually when it was all said and done our AFR's are very close to the carb set-up we had.  This set-up also locks out the distributor and gives you digital control over your timing.

You have to install it right, perfect wiring, perfect exhaust and well thought out fuel delivery system.  This is not for everyone, but as time goes and they continue to develop, you will hard time not putting one of these on.  Lastly,  there will be minimal gain, and possibly a slight loss in MPG.  The only gain you may be able to find is you can adjust the AFR's on the fly, so on a long drive you reach down and lean her out with a push of the button.

Is the EZ 2.0 really that much better than the original? I've been looking at it for a while and might pull the trigger on it sometime next year.

[myk]

I have a 497 stroker build with a carb setup now that made great power on the dyno and is very fun to drive.... just wondering what the bonus side of fuel injection would be?  Carb is tuned pretty good right now so it is very drivable.  Would I see a power increase?  And also... what else has to be upgraded with fuel injection?  Would I have to change tank... etc?

For me, road course and performance driving it's a no brainer.  We run the latest EZ 2.0 system and it been a welcome addition.  The throttle response is the first thing you notice as it has 8 injectors under the throttle blades.  There no delay or need for vacuum to get a signal.  Although you still need the moderate vacuum signal (8") for whole system to work.  You still need to know what your engine needs, as the common mistake is to think you can lean the motor out and run 14.7:1 AFR.  This is not the case, and actually when it was all said and done our AFR's are very close to the carb set-up we had.  This set-up also locks out the distributor and gives you digital control over your timing.

You have to install it right, perfect wiring, perfect exhaust and well thought out fuel delivery system.  This is not for everyone, but as time goes and they continue to develop, you will hard time not putting one of these on.  Lastly,  there will be minimal gain, and possibly a slight loss in MPG.  The only gain you may be able to find is you can adjust the AFR's on the fly, so on a long drive you reach down and lean her out with a push of the button.

Wow-that whole post sells the idea of EFI to me, although I know it isn't easy as it sounds to get it working properly....

[mhinders]

Is the EZ 2.0 really that much better than the original? I've been looking at it for a while and might pull the trigger on it sometime next year.

I think you should consider EFI for flexibility and control, the eventual power increase will be marginal if your carb is already supplying the correct mixture.
Fuel economy can be improved due to the greater control you have.

If I remember correctly, the EZ 2.0 supports 8 injectors, but it cannot control them individually, only as 4+4, i.e. always firing all 4 injectors simultaneously in one bank. But, should still be better than a carb from a control and flexibility point of view. 

[MSRacing89]

I have a 497 stroker build with a carb setup now that made great power on the dyno and is very fun to drive.... just wondering what the bonus side of fuel injection would be?  Carb is tuned pretty good right now so it is very drivable.  Would I see a power increase?  And also... what else has to be upgraded with fuel injection?  Would I have to change tank... etc?

For me, road course and performance driving it's a no brainer.  We run the latest EZ 2.0 system and it been a welcome addition.  The throttle response is the first thing you notice as it has 8 injectors under the throttle blades.  There no delay or need for vacuum to get a signal.  Although you still need the moderate vacuum signal (8") for whole system to work.  You still need to know what your engine needs, as the common mistake is to think you can lean the motor out and run 14.7:1 AFR.  This is not the case, and actually when it was all said and done our AFR's are very close to the carb set-up we had.  This set-up also locks out the distributor and gives you digital control over your timing.

You have to install it right, perfect wiring, perfect exhaust and well thought out fuel delivery system.  This is not for everyone, but as time goes and they continue to develop, you will hard time not putting one of these on.  Lastly,  there will be minimal gain, and possibly a slight loss in MPG.  The only gain you may be able to find is you can adjust the AFR's on the fly, so on a long drive you reach down and lean her out with a push of the button.

Wow-that whole post sells the idea of EFI to me, although I know it isn't easy as it sounds to get it working properly....

As long as you do your homework ahead of time, you should be able to set the parameters and have no issues.  If you are able to get behind the wheel or get a look at the system it will sell itself.  We will be hitting several of the West Coast USCA events (new series) and American Street Car Series in 2014 representing FAST/ COMP Cams with this product along with the QA1 Tubular products we run.  Come take a look if you are out there.

Anyone who makes the argument that a carb is better for what we do, really has no bases to stand on anymore.  Cost is about it.

[MSRacing89]

For me, road course and performance driving it's a no brainer.  We run the latest EZ 2.0 system and it been a welcome addition.  The throttle response is the first thing you notice as it has 8 injectors under the throttle blades.  There no delay or need for vacuum to get a signal.  Although you still need the moderate vacuum signal (8") for whole system to work.  You still need to know what your engine needs, as the common mistake is to think you can lean the motor out and run 14.7:1 AFR.  This is not the case, and actually when it was all said and done our AFR's are very close to the carb set-up we had.  This set-up also locks out the distributor and gives you digital control over your timing.

You have to install it right, perfect wiring, perfect exhaust and well thought out fuel delivery system.  This is not for everyone, but as time goes and they continue to develop, you will hard time not putting one of these on.  Lastly,  there will be minimal gain, and possibly a slight loss in MPG.  The only gain you may be able to find is you can adjust the AFR's on the fly, so on a long drive you reach down and lean her out with a push of the button.

Is the EZ 2.0 really that much better than the original? I've been looking at it for a while and might pull the trigger on it sometime next year.

Like I said the systems are only improving as everyday goes by.  This 2.0 version includes digital control timing, E85 capabilities, power adder capibilities, a new touch screen , and evolved ECU.  It seems to have cleared up some the low end transitions that hurt the 1.0 version.  More injectors and some new software helped this.  Although I never really experienced to many problems.  The 2.0 throttle body itself is a work of art.

[D69charger]

EZ 2.0... what manufact. is that?  how much does a system cost?  Is there a lot of lap top computer tuning required or is it plug and play setup?  Is everything included in the kit to make the fuel injection work?  I mainly looking at it because I intened on driving long distances with my car and will have changing elevations that I believe a carb wont keep up to well with.

[WHITE AND RED 69]

For me, road course and performance driving it's a no brainer.  We run the latest EZ 2.0 system and it been a welcome addition.  The throttle response is the first thing you notice as it has 8 injectors under the throttle blades.  There no delay or need for vacuum to get a signal.  Although you still need the moderate vacuum signal (8") for whole system to work.  You still need to know what your engine needs, as the common mistake is to think you can lean the motor out and run 14.7:1 AFR.  This is not the case, and actually when it was all said and done our AFR's are very close to the carb set-up we had.  This set-up also locks out the distributor and gives you digital control over your timing.

You have to install it right, perfect wiring, perfect exhaust and well thought out fuel delivery system.  This is not for everyone, but as time goes and they continue to develop, you will hard time not putting one of these on.  Lastly,  there will be minimal gain, and possibly a slight loss in MPG.  The only gain you may be able to find is you can adjust the AFR's on the fly, so on a long drive you reach down and lean her out with a push of the button.

Is the EZ 2.0 really that much better than the original? I've been looking at it for a while and might pull the trigger on it sometime next year.

Like I said the systems are only improving as everyday goes by.  This 2.0 version includes digital control timing, E85 capabilities, power adder capibilities, a new touch screen , and evolved ECU.  It seems to have cleared up some the low end transitions that hurt the 1.0 version.  More injectors and some new software helped this.  Although I never really experienced to many problems.  The 2.0 throttle body itself is a work of art.

Sweet! Hopefully one of these setups will be in my future. It does look really good. Thanks for the info.    Is your setup with an inline pump or in the tank? I was looking at the aeromotive phantom in tank pump. Been hearing some good things about it.

EZ 2.0... what manufact. is that?  how much does a system cost?  Is there a lot of lap top computer tuning required or is it plug and play setup?  Is everything included in the kit to make the fuel injection work?  I mainly looking at it because I intened on driving long distances with my car and will have changing elevations that I believe a carb wont keep up to well with.

EZ 2.0 is made by FAST. The system cost a little over 2 grand without the fuel pump. And a bit more than 2500 with the pump. Nope, no laptop. Its all self tuning and tunes while you drive. Another cool feature (not sure if other systems do this?) is if you have electric fans you can have the FAST system control everything off the push of a button.  

[mhinders]

EZ 2.0 is made by FAST. The system cost a little over 2 grand without the fuel pump. And a bit more than 2500 with the pump. Nope, no laptop. Its all self tuning and tunes while you drive. Another cool feature (not sure if other systems do this?) is if you have electric fans you can have the FAST system control everything off the push of a button.

If we want to talk features MegaSquirt is way more advanced to a fraction of the cost...self tuning while you drive, if desired full manual control of all engine parameters, individual multi-port cylinder control of both injection and ignition, launch control, fuel pump and cooling fan control, full engine data logging and real time control, wire or wireless connection to your laptop, wireless connection to your surfpad where you can customize 4 different instrument panels...in fractions of a second with the tip of your finger you can switch between your own instrument panels...

[Cooter]

PORT fuel injection is one thing, but a T body injection set up ain't nothing but an electronic carb. You still have distribution issues with T body.

F. I. Sounds nice until you find out it costs what three intake and carb set ups would.

[mhinders]

PORT fuel injection is one thing, but a T body injection set up ain't nothing but an electronic carb. You still have distribution issues with T body.

F. I. Sounds nice until you find out it costs what three intake and carb set ups would.

I agree with you that there is still distribution issues with the T-body injection.
But it might be less since the injection nozzels spray the fuel and should/could make the atomization better on near idle revs, where big carbs and intakes are struggling with the mixture. But the benefit could be marginal, I have no experience with T-body injection.
And, with the EFI, you still have the significantly increased flexibility, with your finger tips you "re-jet" your system in seconds.

Yep, the cost is steep, just my 8 injectors for sequential port injection costed me over $1000 (Sweden, with 25% VAT)...any cheaper wasn't possible.
So from an economical point of view it probably doesn't make much sense, unless you drive long distances and may recover some of the cost by lower fuel consumption.

[Ghoste]

Would it not puddle below the TB?

[Cooter]

Would it not puddle below the TB?

I see you've looked down the T body blades in a Chevy 4.3 when cold.......

[Ghoste]

I haven't actually but it just makes sense.  If atomized fuel from a carb puddles at low airflow I can't see it being any different just because the metering is controlled electrically.
I see benefits to TBI as far as tuning and cold starts but the performance gain?  And I'm with you on the costs.

[mhinders]

The injected fuel is sprayed out under high pressure, compared to a carb. It might be an advantage for the TBI... 

[Ghoste]

In some units it is.  There may be a small advantage there, hence the better cold starts but it is still being atomized into the slower airstream and atomized fuel is atomized fuel, no?

[mhinders]

Yes, but a big carb with slow air speed...I don't know if there is much atomization...probably more dripping... 

[Ghoste]

Agree completely but a big bore throttle body will suffer from some of the same problems.  I realize it doesn't have to deal with airflow past a venturi but if there is slower moving air keeping fuel in suspension would still be an issue.

[chargd72]

I'm with MSRacing.  I will be going the Fast 2.0 route as well.  I just bought a Paxton supercharger and need something to control my fuel according to boost.  It is pricey but it seems like the tuning features are second to none.  Plus, the new unit with 8 injectors instead of 4 looks like a double pumper setup.  Awesome...

Hey MSR, have any display or used models you can sell??   

[mhinders]

Agreed.
TBI is maybe a half step forward, port injection a full step...

But it was interesting to note that in one of the recent Engine Masters competitions, a 426 Hemi with the full MegaSquirt system actually gave a few horses more with TBI at WOT, than with port injection at WOT.

But, the designer said that overall the port injection is better for normal use.

[Ghoste]

Thats interesting too, did he explain why?

[MSRacing89]

I'm with MSRacing.  I will be going the Fast 2.0 route as well.  I just bought a Paxton supercharger and need something to control my fuel according to boost.  It is pricey but it seems like the tuning features are second to none.  Plus, the new unit with 8 injectors instead of 4 looks like a double pumper setup.  Awesome...

Hey MSR, have any display or used models you can sell??   

Sorry.  I am just sponsored by FAST so nothing in stock, but I do have a 1.0 unit that will be available.