Restomod - need your advice pls

[erlendch]

Hey guys, what are your opinions on resto-mods? Basically I personally love the idea of having old looking cars with new tech and mechanical.

Below you can see some pictures of my car to get an idea of the starting point... It's a real RT. It looks decent, but engine doesn't drive very well and it handles very poorly. And it is so load and revs too high on high way (gear ratio has been lowered too). Currently it has a non-matching numbers slighty modified 440.


I was thinking of putting a a modern 392 Hemi engine from a 2010-2012 Dodge Challenger SRT8 with automatic transmission. I believe it has 470 hp. Thoughts on that? How big of a process would that be and what are the cost assuming I will outsource everything.

I'd also need to redo suspension and stiffen up the car. Although I changed to disc brake quite recently I'd might consider upgrading
those further too.

I wouldn't pimp the interior or anything. I already upgraded the radio with modern components on the inside incl connectivity for iPhone. Other than that I'd probably wanna change front seats to old Recaro's or something that fits the car that I re-polster in leather and same pattern as originals.

And I'm considering a repaint. Same gold color of course.

Anything else I should consider?

If I were to do these changes, what do you think the value of my car would be if I tried to sell it at one point.

Any advice, tips or feedback is much appriciated. Thanks!

[Ghoste]

I can't imagine messing with your car much personally.  But to answer your question, there are some peoplke on here who have done that and I think it has gotten a little easier as now the aftermarket particpates a bit.
Schumachers may have a kit for making the swap?

[Mike DC]

    
When it comes to the resale value of a real '69 RT, there is nice stock condition and it's pretty much all downhill from there.  

The only exception might be a 440 RT car that was given a nice near-stock 426 Hemi conversion, but even then the value increase doesn't always outweigh the sum of the parts invested.  (And keep the original motor if you elect to do this one.)




As for restomods on principle, people are basically receptive to them around here, although you would win more friends doing it with a 318 car than a real RT.  

As you'd expect people generally think you should keep the changes reversible whenever possible.  The aftermarket is making that easier all the time.  

 

[myk]

IMO I'd address the suspension and electrical first, and then decide if transplanting a modern powerplant is an undertaking that you want.  After you "resto-mod" your lacking stock suspension and electrical systems you may find that the car will be just right; that is the direction that I am headed in, and although having a modern engine/drivetrain would be "cool" I don't see it as a necessary or dollar-worthy endeavor.  Plenty of power, fun and headaches can be had with era-correct engine technology...

[WHITE AND RED 69]

You are going to get a bunch of negative and a couple positive thoughts on this one...Lots of guys will be harsh on you for wanting a new hemi motor, so be ready for that. But in the end it's your car so do what makes you happy. I'm all for making them better drivers.

It can be done though. Fitting it in is the easy part, it's everything else that will cost a ton. Your looking at a $15K motor, $1500 accessory drive, $5K trans, couple grand just on wiring, new headers and exhaust, radiator, fuel system, and the list goes on. And then there is the labor, could be up to $10 grand on labor alone. There will be hours upon hours of wiring, troubleshooting, fitting and refitting, etc.

Check out autodynamics build, he did a 6.1 hemi and it turned out sweet. He also did the aftermarket seat in the stock pattern too.

What about a rebuilding or using a crate motor based off the 440 with a 4 speed auto aftermarket transmission? Or a gearvendors overdrive on your existing 727? That will let you get a good set of gears to get the power down and will give you the extra gear for highway cruising. Will cost less in the long run and you can use most of the parts you already have. Add efi for reliability and you will have a great cruiser.

Suspension and stiffening is the easy part. Plenty of great options out there. Firm feel, hotchkis, QA1, etc...

As for the value, you will never get back this money you put in with all the upgrades. There is a point where the value just doesn't go up anymore. You could put $100 grand into it but it's still going to be worth $50 grand in the end. And with custom touches you have to find that certain buyer who wants it and can afford it.

[cdr]

put an overdrive in it, IE gear venders & a quieter exhaust & disc brakes,& some bilstein shocks & you will like your car a lot better.

[Lord Warlock]

unless the engine swap is professionally done, it won't increase the value any, and may decrease the value.  To tell the truth, you're talking about a huge undertaking that involves fabrication and the ability to make what is needed to make it fit, kits to accomplish this most likely are not complete kits and not likely a bolt on situation.  Another point is that finding a 392 complete with the ignition system, fuel systems, and ecu to make it all work right is going to cost you more than half the value of the car without even starting the install.  

While I understand why you'd like this type of conversion, as the new hemi motors are great drivers overall, and having a new motor would be a good thing power wise, you're still limited by old braking systems, old suspensions etc.  It would make more sense to graft a body onto an srt8 frame...something someone here is already working on and you can get an idea of what is involved just by going through his thread.  Personally, I think the 440 can be souped up to easily outperform the newer v8's, and quite a bit cheaper than buying a crate 392 or a used 392 that will likely cost you close to 10k by itself.  (392s haven't been out that long so there aren't a lot of them laying around yet).  A better option would be to go to Arrington performance and buy one of their 440 motors based off of the 392 or the 6.1L motor.  Keep in mind that the 392 is based off of the 5.7.

Why not update the suspension to newer standards, totally rebuild the 440, then supercharge or turbocharge it to get the power you want, then update all the brakes  and suspension to support the new power.  

Value wise, your car is likely to be worth more just renewed using the parts you have than totally fabricating a new car out of an old shell.  

[myk]

Wait are we talking about value too?  Value should NEVER be a factor when taking on an old car project; this is strictly for personal satisfaction and enjoyment...

[Ghoste]

The op did ask about value and as a couple of others have mentioned, you can expect it to more than likely decrease the value.

[Lord Warlock]

Yeah, he did ask at the bottom of the post what the car would be worth after the modification.  If he's a master fabricator like a few people on this site are, it can be done but I seriously doubt he'd recoup his investment, much less make a profit on it.  It would have to be for personal satisfaction only.  

Hopefully someone will come up with a bolt on kit for these situations, I'd love to take the 2010 challenger RT parts and graft them into the 69 charger r/t one day, provided I wasn't happy with the 440 anymore.  But I think the 5.7L is a step down from the 440 even if the hp is rated the same. 

[Indygenerallee]

Id never molest a original R/T thats why I wanted a plain jane 318 69 Charger so I could do whatever the heck I wanted to do to it and not get hounded about it.. mine is a Daytona clone with a 5.7 Hemi and I may go to a 6.1 one day (once it hits the road!  ) Just get a plain jane and molest it to no end.. but not a original R/T  

[Ghoste]

Erlendch also mentioned that he would need to outsource everything.  That will also have a big impact on both the upfront cost and any net returns after the fact.

[erlendch]

(...) It would make more sense to graft a body onto an srt8 frame...something someone here is already working on and you can get an idea of what is involved just by going through his thread. (...)

Awesome! Anyone has link to that thread?

[Indygenerallee]

That would be Mr. Mirabelli... His SRT-8 Charger Daytona clone is in the Aero section and is BADASS....

[Lord Warlock]

Yes, it is badass, he does some amazing metal work, just shows how talented some of our members are, just one more reason to listen to advice from people here, more than likely several have already done it, and will help you out when you reach a roadblock.

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,101925.0.html

[bill440rt]

My advice would be to find a base model Charger & build it from there rather than an R/T. As others have stated it very well may have a negative affect on value.
Modified cars are suited to the owner's tastes. If you decided to sell finding a buyer with same or similar tastes may be difficult.
Ultimately it's your car so do as you wish.

[erlendch]

That is bad ass! Holy fuck the guy got some serious talent! Can't wait to follow the progress.

I agree that messing with a original RT is almost disrespectful, so I'm considering selling it and find a shop that could build what I'm looking for, but starting with a regular 318. Including finding the object and doing all the work. Anyone have recommendation for a place in California that does this kind of work?

[WHITE AND RED 69]

Stevearino's daytona is badass but he is putting in all the work saving a ton of cash. If you were to pay a shop to do this you are easily looking at over $100,000. Especially in California where the hourly rate of a good shop is $125+. This kind of project requires a lot of skill and/or a shitload of cash. Since you are looking to farm out the build be prepared to pay up and have years of waiting for the finished product.

I'd say go with what you have and just add bolt on parts to make it what you want. Bolt on parts will not hurt the value of an R/T and if you ever want to take it back to stock its just a matter of putting the stock stuff back on. From the looks of it you have a great platform that is perfect for some bolt on goodies.

I'd recommend subframe connectors, QA1 upper control arms, hotchkis sway bar, bilstein or fox/hotchkis shocks, gear vendors overdrive, firm feel 11/16" steering rods, 1" torsion bars, adjustable strut rods, moog rubber lower control arm bushings, lower control arm stiffening plates, FAST EFI, new seats, sound deadening, and if the noise is still unbearable add some resonators after the mufflers. Also have you thought about adding power steering? If you also add a hydroboost master cylinder with the power steering it will make those disk brakes work A LOT better. All of this could be done in less than a week at a good shop and cost way less than doing a full 392 swap. And the car will still look stock but perform close to today's standards.  

[myk]

If the pedigree of an "original" R/T is important or sacred to you, then sell your original, find a clapped out bomber like mine, buy it and then have your way with it; you might even get ahead cash wise as your original R/T would be worth that much more. 

White & Red echoes my sentiments perfectly: start resto-modding your car starting with the suspension and the electrics; I'll confidently wager that you'll forget about the 392 swap as the car will be more than enough fun for you just with those 'mods...

[WHITE AND RED 69]

Also what exactly is wrong with the current motor? Does it have any leaks? Does it tick, knock, idle problems, or have any known issues? Maybe a tune up, new gaskets, timing changes, and carb adjustments might wake it up. No point replacing it it's good. If not add a new cam, intake, headers, and aluminum heads and you will get way better power numbers than the 392. With an EFI setup you could have it just as reliable as the 392 at 1/3 of the cost.  

[Lord Warlock]

RT's aren't so rare that one being updated wouldn't be considered a crime, they did make 27000 of them in 69 alone (if memory serves me) But people in California have killed so many making movies that we never see them anymore, and just hate to see another one disappear, far better to take a generic 318 model, and make an RT clone, after all, its really the looks of the body that most people really want. 

[remta1]

absolutely love it as it is , wouldn't hurt to make it handle better ,but do what makes you happy 

[myk]

Also what exactly is wrong with the current motor? Does it have any leaks? Does it tick, knock, idle problems, or have any known issues? Maybe a tune up, new gaskets, timing changes, and carb adjustments might wake it up. No point replacing it it's good. If not add a new cam, intake, headers, and aluminum heads and you will get way better power numbers than the 392. With an EFI setup you could have it just as reliable as the 392 at 1/3 of the cost.   

He says it's mildly modified, which I assume means it's in a healthy state of performance.  I think he's just looking for the "wow" factor of having a modern Hemi in his engine bay. 

'OP if you have the money, the means and the desire-do it; it's your car, your life and you have to be happy with it and yourself and live together at the end of it all...

[erlendch]

Thanks for all feedback guys! I think it might even be cheaper to build from from a 318, since I prob can a good price for my RT which Ill put in this new project. Any tip on shop that build chargers? TY!

[WHITE AND RED 69]

RT's aren't so rare that one being updated wouldn't be considered a crime, they did make 27000 of them in 69 alone (if memory serves me) But people in California have killed so many making movies that we never see them anymore, and just hate to see another one disappear, far better to take a generic 318 model, and make an RT clone, after all, its really the looks of the body that most people really want.  

Don't blame California for the rarity now a days of old cars. Mid west and east coast winters have destroyed tens of thousands of more cars than California made movies have or ever will. At least our weather doesn't kill cars.    And everyone buys all of our rust free cars and ships them out of state! So our weather should make up for stupid Hollywood.  

[myk]

Thanks for all feedback guys! I think it might even be cheaper to build from from a 318, since I prob can a good price for my RT which Ill put in this new project. Any tip on shop that build chargers? TY!

I dunno man; now that I think about it, it'd be difficult for even "me," to take a beautiful car like yours and then trade down to a lesser car, even if it was just temporary.  If you can swing it, I'd say keep your current car and modify it as you see fit, originality and value be damned.  If you buy a "project" you're just asking for trouble IMO, because as you take that project car apart you'll find all kinds of gremlins waiting to suck your time, money and sanity; you may end up dead even or maybe LOSE money in the long run.  The car you have now is a healthy foundation for your vision, so start from there if at all possible...

[1974dodgecharger]

do what makes you happy...in the end its your car, but if your thinking of flipping it wont work like a lot of folks have said. Dont let others give you flack for what you want to do your car its yours and do it 'tastefully'.  Even I was given flack for having 20s in the rears....

Ill take a 572 streetable hemi, GV OD, custom rims staggered, and call it good. 

[myk]

do what makes you happy...in the end its your car, but if your thinking of flipping it wont work like a lot of folks have said. Dont let others give you flack for what you want to do your car its yours and do it 'tastefully'.  Even I was given flack for having 20s in the rears....

Ill take a 572 streetable hemi, GV OD, custom rims staggered, and call it good. 

You're running 20's, I thought they were 18's.  Man I can't keep track of everyone's 'mods lol...

[1974dodgecharger]

myk,
lol, I dont think we need to keep track of each others mods.  I usually google some mods I plan to do the car and  usually end up here at DC.com and PM the member some info on it. 

20s in the rear and 18s in front 

reminds me to take newer pics these are now one month old or so...

[Lord Warlock]

think the california reference was just made for the op's place of residence, (and it was a joke, sorry no smiley) I can't blame mother nature for doing what she does best, and causing rust which is the normal life cycle of metal.  But jumping cars over bridges, rivers, cop cars etc are unnatural deaths and needless for entertainment purposes, we'd be just as entertained if they wrecked corvettes....or ugly camaros.  (or imports/tuner cars)

[1974dodgecharger]

I wouldnt...those cars are dead boring to look at on screen.  IMO the 2nd gen charger captures the on screen very well it looks like its going fast even standing there its just photogenic.

[Ghoste]

There was another member a few years ago that stuck a 68 body on a 6th gen car.  I don't think he's been on here in quite a bit and forget the username but there are pics of it here somewhere too.

[Troy]

A new Hemi swap isn't rocket science. A big hurdle used to be the electronics but I'm pretty sure there are sources for "stand alone" computers/wiring now (probably with a factory "crate" engine). Another problem used to be transmissions as finding one that would work with the engine computer meant cutting the floor of the car to make it fit. Not something you want to do on a nice R/T! You'll need an electric fuel pump (including a modified or new tank) and a very clean electrical system to make it all run right. While this isn't incredibly hard, it's not exactly cheap. How about building a 451 stroker with after market EFI? More horsepower, more torque, more forgiving, easier to install, fewer (if any) modifications to the car.

You can bolt on an entire Hotchkis suspension. Several companies make upgraded brake packages. You'll need larger wheels and tires just to clear the brakes. You can upgrade to "hidden" sound systems. If you're careful about speaker placement you shouldn't have to cut any original metal. None of these are permanent modifications to the car.

Suspension mods will work a little better if you stiffened the unibody (torque boxes, subframe connectors, radiator support brace, inner fender braces, etc.). This requires welding and new paint to cover it up. This is generally in hidden areas so if the paint on the outside body is pretty you can keep it. This is one area where costs can spiral out of control!

After upgrading the acceleration, deceleration, and turning capabilities you'll find out that the seats don't do a great job of holding you in place. These are, again, bolt on. Unfortunately, it's hard to find a set that nicely complements a factory interior.

While you might be able to get a good price for your car, you're going to want to buy a fairly nice car as a basis for your restomod. Especially if you're paying someone else for all the work! I'd prefer to see the R/T remain stock but, from a money perspective, I have a hard time believing you'll come out ahead. If you buy a "project" because you want to start building from bare metal you're basically talking about the same costs as a full restoration AND all the modifications. Can you say "giant money pit"?

It's way simpler to modify the car you already have. Unfortunately, depending on how far you take it, I believe it will greatly reduce the resale value. However, if you do some of the things I mentioned above they are reversible. But will you take the time/effort to reverse them when you decide to sell the car? Check out Mike Musto's "Mr Angry" 68 Charger. It is, mostly, built with factory parts like HD springs and torsion bars and a carbureted 440 and 727 automatic transmission that is only slightly more built than stock. It does have big brakes, a rather large wheel/tire package, and after market seats. It hangs right with (or outruns!) exotics and some pretty seriously built cars on the autocross and road courses. It's also a long range touring car that was meant to be driven. It wouldn't take much to duplicate. He also has a much more seriously built Daytona clone in case the 68 ever gets boring. It's not nearly as friendly for every day driving though!

Troy

[WHITE AND RED 69]

think the california reference was just made for the op's place of residence, (and it was a joke, sorry no smiley) I can't blame mother nature for doing what she does best, and causing rust which is the normal life cycle of metal.  But jumping cars over bridges, rivers, cop cars etc are unnatural deaths and needless for entertainment purposes, we'd be just as entertained if they wrecked corvettes....or ugly camaros.  (or imports/tuner cars)

Didn't mean for my comment to seem like an attack, it was meant to be in good fun.    As for the movies, I totally agree that they shouldn't be destroyed for entertainment. But these cars have such a screen presence that other cars just don't have. I just wish they could find that happy medium of showing them off without any damage being done.

There was another member a few years ago that stuck a 68 body on a 6th gen car.  I don't think he's been on here in quite a bit and forget the username but there are pics of it here somewhere too.

There was this one. He sold it a while back.

[Ghoste]

There are a few out there, the one I'm thinking of was black.  He got a feature in a Mopar mag as well, MCG possibly?

[erlendch]

(...)

There was another member a few years ago that stuck a 68 body on a 6th gen car.  I don't think he's been on here in quite a bit and forget the username but there are pics of it here somewhere too.

There was this one. He sold it a while back.
[/quote]

Was there a thread on this car ever? Or articles online?

Edit: Igonre, realized it is right here.. http://www.mopar5150.com/68charger.html