A thread for road racers............>>>>>

[RallyeMike]

Have you heard anything about an independent rear suspension setup built around a Viper center section for B & E-bodies?

I have not, but I'm not looking out for it either. I like the stock style-stuff.

On the steering, I want to make sure I don't lead you astray because I don't know what your complete plans are for your car: My Charger and it's steering is built specifically to do high speed racing and nothing else. It's a monster to turn around in the driveway. I grew up on manual steer cars. I'm 6-4, 240 and keep the seat close enough to get leverage on the steering wheel. I would not personally put 20:1 manual steering in anything else I own except possibly a slant six A-body with skinny tires and the big stock steering wheel. 

[Johnny SixPack]

Understood.

I've already got an cruiser, so the "69 is going to be purpose built.

Also nice that I live out in the 'country'.

I probably won't go as radical as you did, as I'd like to start out somewhere in the middle, and then maybe move up.

Just nice to have the input.

[Mike DC]

This is interesting.

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--  Last time we were talking about the IRS on this site, someone said it was pushing like $14,000 in price.  Ha ha ha.  I think you can still get an entire rolling NASCAR tube chassis built for less than that.

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Wasn't Mopar's manual 20:1 steering box a NASCAR item in the first place?  Makes sense.  I think it was 24:1 for manual (street cars) and 16:1 for PS setups.

I wonder about retrofitting a rack/pinion setup for a high-speed car.  Manual or not, the recirculating ball steering setup is more about isolating road feel than communicating it. 

It's also occurred to me that maybe setting up the Mopar K-frame (cutting & welding) for a Saginaw PS box is a better idea than the stock Mopar PS box.  There's a heck of a lot more aftermarket support for the Saginaw PS box.  It's been used in everything from old Camaros & Chevelles to modern GMC trucks & Jeeps.  You'd have a lot more options with various steering rates, valving, lighter-weight cases, etc.

       

[Lightning]

wow, we've need a thread like this for awhile! very nice thread with lots of info! keep it up guys!

[Charger500]

Hello,

It really sucks thoguh because I went onto ralleymikes links about open road racing and it says you have to be 18 for everyone. I am 16 and have been competing on the track at Thunderhill Raceway in California and now am really interested in open road racing but I quess it has to wait.

Charger500

[CFMopar]

hey mike why rubber bushings not poly? I thought poly was better?

I got energy suspension bushings that I was going to use with moog chassi parts for my front end. Gonna start getting my charger ready for the road course soon to I want to beat my buddies integra both at the drag and the road and my other friends suburu club is renting a track in july so I figured I'd get the front end and rear done before then I'd take it out for shits and giggles and see how she does...

planning to have done before track date:
Front end rebuild with moog / energy bushings
1.0 torsion bars
box lca
shocks
leafs
sway bars
Gotta look into tightening up the steering to....

Already have the 6pt cage, sub frame connectors, relocated battery, and the 11.75 police rotors which are no 13 in baer but do a good job stoping the car. Want to get the viper caliper setup from ar engneering...


Also have you looked into qa1 shocks instead of the koni? How are the konis adjusted? The qa1s are nice they are a bit pricey. One of my mopar mags has an article on them I'll try to look it up...

[Silver R/T]

good luck beating integra with Charger in autocross lol

[Mike DC]

       
Sure would be funny though.

But you never know; it could happen.  A lot of ricers have cars with more handling potential but they compensate for it because they can't set up a car worth a crap.

     

[RallyeMike]

hey mike why rubber bushings not poly? I thought poly was better?

I rebuilt it before I went insane for speed. With heavy torsion bars, I actually think the rubber takes a little of the bone-rattling jar away (comparing to my other ride WITH Poly).

As far as shocks go, I will be looking around. I mentioned Koni only because It came to mind as a standard.

I think it was 24:1 for manual (street cars) and 16:1 for PS setups.

I wonder about retrofitting a rack/pinion setup for a high-speed car.  Manual or not, the recirculating ball steering setup is more about isolating road feel than communicating it.  

As far as other types of steering boxes/systems, how ever much time anyone wants to invest in modifying their car for a more recently engineered system - more power to you. 40 year old engineering can certainly be improved, but for nostalgia, simplicity, and cost I like the stock set up myself. It's really quite amazing how tight the old stuff can be once everything is reconditioned and the typical tricks are applied. I'm not kidding myself that it's a Porsche, but I have no qualms about cruizing along at a steady 130-140. Hey, it was good enough for Buddy Baker at 200 

It really sucks thoguh because I went onto ralleymikes links about open road racing and it says you have to be 18 for everyone. I am 16 and have been competing on the track at Thunderhill Raceway in California and now am really interested in open road racing but I quess it has to wait.

Look at this this way: You've got two years to put together one hell of a ride !

[CFMopar]

good luck beating integra with Charger in autocross lol

I got one advantage... Oversteer  hehe

[Mike DC]

RallyeMike,

What's the car like cruising at those "130-140" speeds? 
I've been up near that in a few brief bursts during my life.  But never long enough (and never in any safe well-prepared cars) to do much more than scare myself & get something to brag about.

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Is the handling still good?  (I mean, does it still feel "stable" in the normal sense like the car does at 70 mph?)  Whenver I've done that stuff, the kind of pavement that I would normally think of as "pretty smooth" feels downright bumpy & unnerving.  And forget about doing it after dark; I remember totally outrunning the useful reach of the headlights at speeds way below the numbers you're talking about.

Is that fast enough to start really noticing the aerodynamics? 
I just remember my Charger ('69) felt like it was losing the steering once it got past about 100-110 mph or so.  I don't really know whether that was really the aerodynamics lifting the front end, or maybe just the stock over-assisted steering & lack of decent caster in the front suspension.
         
             

[RallyeMike]

It's an absolute frickin blast. The car cruises fine at those speeds and is rock stable. After awhile you stop realizing how fast you are going.

Pavement IS an issue. The ORR courses are chosen to run on pretty good roads, however you do have to look out for bumps and dips. Major ones are spelled out in the course notes, and most folks pre-drive the course to check them out as well as the curves. Minor deviations in the road surface at 70mph are BIG ones at 140  and up. You have to plan for them and prep the car to suit the speed with stiff spring rates.

Aerodynamics are very noticeable over 100. I believe you when you say your 69 floated in stock form at 100. They catch a lot of air.  I'm helped out a lot by the front air damn, ride height, and front-rear rake. Keeping the air out from under the car is a must for stability. Modified or not, the 3rd gens have an advantage on the 2nds gens in high speed driveability. I was initially into 2nd gen's before getting into 3rd gens. IMHO, 3rd gen's drive and handle much better due to better aerodynamics and increased track width.

[Mike DC]

Sounds awesome.

You have to plan for them and prep the car to suit the speed with stiff spring rates.

That's what I suspected.  What are you running, like 1.00" torsion bars in front or something? 
I remember you saying 20:1 steering earlier in the thread, which makes sense.  Faster speed needs slower steering.
What kind of sway bars & brakes work at those speeds?

Modified or not, the 3rd gens have an advantage on the 2nds gens in high speed driveability. I was initailly into 2nd gen's before getting into 3rd gens. IMHO, 3rd gen's drive and handle much better due to better aerodynamics and increased track width.

I thought some of the old NASCAR guys were saying the 2nd-gen was aerodynamically "better" than the 3rd-gen Chargers.  Like, I remember a comment that the windshield being more curved back at the side edges (on the 2nd-gen cars) was better for drag. 

Of course, they're probably talking about the Daytona versions half the time though.  Maybe they meant the 2nd-gen cars were potentially a bit better as long as the wings & noses were there to fix the problem areas on the rest of the body?  Seems like the 3rd-gen cars don't have the kind of specific problem areas like the A-pillars & inset grilles. 

And let's not even go into the 2nd-gen's stock tunnel back rear window, and the wonderful way it pulls upwards on the rearend at speed . . .

     

[RallyeMike]

1.0 bars last year. 1.12 this year. Using an 1-1/8 front sway and stock 72 rear sway.

As far as 2nd gens go, all I can say is this: Richard Petty states that his favorite stock car out of all the ones he drove over the years, including the aero-cars, he liked his string of 3rd gen Chargers the best. Granted, stock cars evolved a lot between 70 and 72-76, so maybe a direct comparison isnt entirely fair, but you just can't argue with the King 

[Mike DC]

         
Are the 1.00" torsion bars streetable? 

I've got a buddy who's on the fence about which bars to get.  The car is gonna get run pretty hard but he doesn't want it to be hopelessly unpleasant for occasional cruising either.

       

[RallyeMike]

I think they are fine.

[greenrt_se]

I have 1,03 dia torsion bars in my street Charger and I like them

[andyf]

Mike,

Might need to pull this one out of the garage and go racing with you.

[andyf]

Here is an engine shot.  Basic NASCAR issue single 4bbl Hemi.  Gotta love those old home made suspension parts with the double shocks.

[Troy]

That's pretty cool Andy. Certainly doesn't qualify as "basic" in my book.

Welcome to the site too!

Troy

[RallyeMike]

Very cool. Do you know the history on that car?.

Wanna trade ? 

[andyf]

It is an old Winston Cup car.  Raced in the mid-70's by Dave Marcis.  I guess it won a race at Daytona in ARCA trim in the late 70's.  It is currently owned by a guy I do some business with.  Here is a shot of the nose.

[Mike DC]

       
OOhh, La La!

That was back when musclecars weren't built to impress show judges.  That thing is badass. 

I love the primitive-but-effective chassis work they used to do on those cars.  Seems like everybody these days is scared to do anything to their car's suspension unless it's bolting on an entire $3000 aftermarket front clip.

   

[CFMopar]

I'd do that to my 71.. It aint nothing special anyways... Only thing I'm affraid of is that it would fall onto the tires and explode My fabiricating skills arnt up to that level yet....

[Ghoste]

Who needs cupholders anyway?