A thread for road racers............>>>>>

[Johnny SixPack]

Thought it might be kinda cool to see who here is more into the road racing/rally scene since most members are coming from a drag strip angle in regards to performance.

My intent with my "69 is for it to be a road racer.

I'd love to hear about mods/upgrades/parts/combos/engines/tran./tips/etc. from anyone who's also going that direction.

As usual, pix are greatly appreciated and the state of your build is not a factor here.

Thanks a lot for anyone who's got anything to contribute!


Johnny

[sext7366]

Before my recent rebuild I had a killer combo... 204/214 duration cam 383 with stock exhaust and a single plane intake with a 600cfm edelbrock.  Although it seems very unevolved the rearends 2.76 gears brought it all together.  The cam gave the engine decent takeoff, and midrange power while the single plane and gears took over for the top speed.  For a 3500lb+ car that could spin the tires off the line, and hit super high speeds (130 was the fastest I ever pushed it and I had room to go) this combo worked great.

[Chryco Psycho]

I ma far more interested in Road racing now since the drag strip told me to go away & not come back seems I was nto the only one they treated this way as it looks like the track will be staying closed this summer
Ralley Mike will be into this in a big way as well

[RallyeMike]

 

Wahoooo. Road Racing rules !

A great step by step "how to" is covered by Mopar Action Magazine in the building of the Green Brick (71? Valiant). They go through all the low buck upgrades such as reinforcing the low A-arms, steering box mount, and LCA pivots, welding the K member, and putting in subframe connectors as well as simple brake upgrades. It's amazing how much differently (better!) a car can drive with these simple modifications. If you don't subscribe, you should. You can find some back issues on line, or maybe prowl the swap meets.  

Actually, I don't know if there is anyone on this board who does closed course racing on regular basis. I'm doing the high-speed Silver-State type stuff which is similar, but it's own animal. Hurry up, summer !

[Johnny SixPack]

Mike, I'm also looking for more of a Silver State Classic racer. 

I'd love to see a list of what you've done to your Charger!

On my "69 SE 383 4-bbl I've already added the subframe connectors, swapped the rear springs for R/T springs , relocated the battery to the trunk, upgraded the cooling and fuel systems and a couple other beginning type mods.

Next up Will be the addition of an Alter'K'tion unit with the 13" Wilwoods.

That'll give me a tubular k-member, coil-overs, rack & pinion steering, big @$$ brakes and save me close to 100#s in unsprung weight upfront.

Then swap out the cheesy sway bar the PO installed and go with a Hotchkis (sp?) heavy duty sway bars front and rear.

Also want to add a 30 gal. fuel cell at some point (and many other things, but I'll list 'em later).

I've been on the fence about which route to go in regards to the trans. (Gear Vendors O/D or Keisler 5/6-speed), but a manual just seems to make more sense.

Which are way did you go for your transmission?

[Ghoste]

I had a chance to drive a 69 Charger last summer with the Keisler setup.  It was only about a 5 minute in town cruise, but if you want my opinion (or even if you don't) it's the way to go.  Fun and practical.

[RallyeMike]

Mike, I'm also looking for more of a Silver State Classic racer. 

I'd love to see a list of what you've done to your Charger!

On my "69 SE 383 4-bbl I've already added the subframe connectors, swapped the rear springs for R/T springs , relocated the battery to the trunk, upgraded the cooling and fuel systems and a couple other beginning type mods.

Next up Will be the addition of an Alter'K'tion unit with the 13" Wilwoods.

That'll give me a tubular k-member, coil-overs, rack & pinion steering, big @$$ brakes and save me close to 100#s in unsprung weight upfront.

Then swap out the cheesy sway bar the PO installed and go with a Hotchkis (sp?) heavy duty sway bars front and rear.

Also want to add a 30 gal. fuel cell at some point (and many other things, but I'll list 'em later).

I've been on the fence about which route to go in regards to the trans. (Gear Vendors O/D or Keisler 5/6-speed), but a manual just seems to make more sense.

Which are way did you go for your transmission?

COOL. Hope to see you out there someday. It's lonely being a Mopar guy at a track with turns.


What has been done:

Chassis: Complete F suspension rebuild with rubber, not poly. Welded K-frame, reinforced LCA pivots, reinforced steering box mount, Firm Feel 1:20 manual box, 1.00 T-bars, 1-1/8 F sway, SS rear springs, welded subframe connectors, 10-point cage.

Running Gear: Garage-built mild 440 with mildly worked 906 heads and low compression, Hyd cam, Eddy RPM intake, Holley 780, Hooker comp headers, HV oil pump, Miloden 7qt low profile pan, 2-1/2" exhaust with cut-outs and H-pipe, trans cooler, oil cooler, Cope 727 with all the goodies, 8-1/4 2.45 axle with alloy axles and oil cooler, Denny's aluminum driveshaft, and Griffin aluminum circle track 1-1/2" core radiator.     

Current Upgrades:

New 10.7:1 383 with KB pistons, Indy EZ heads, resized stock rods, turned stock steel crank, 240/247 .507/.510 Comp cam, Weiand Team G intake, Holley 780, Erson 1.6 rockers, HV 3/8 pump and pickup, home built 7qt pan.  Also, going to swap in bigger T-bars, 8-3/4 with 3.23's, and go to manual trans.

Trans: Keilser would have been cool but I have a self-imposed budget and my "economy" motor already got out of hand. So... I rebuilt an A833 OD long-tailshaft which will mate to a Lakewood Bellhousing and all the stock 4-speed linkage and pedals. This is going to get me OD for about $$ 1/6th of a Keisler, only because I had scrouged the parts awhile ago and cashed in some contingency awards.

I have not seen an AlterKation set up in person, but I like the stoutness of the stock set up for this kind of stuff. If you do go that route, I would love to get your impressions after you have run it for awhile in a competition environment.

A 30-gallon cell takes up a lot of space. Have you thought about how it will mount? I will probably add a Fuel Safe 22-25 gallon can this year myself, which is something I should have done long ago.

[Johnny SixPack]

Wow, Mike! 

You ain't been restin' on your laurels, eh? 

As for the fuel cell, my trunk is already hashed (couple holes and places where the PO used 'glass to patch around the filler tube), so cutting out a big section wouldn't hurt my feelings one bit.

I don't have any manual trans. parts, and my "69 is a factory console auto car, so the Kiesler makes sense to me since I don't even know where to begin when it would come to collecting parts for a swap to manual.

Also like the idea of their hydraulic clutch since it's supposed to have shorter pedal travel than a stock setup.

Norway Charger has the Alter-K setup, but his car is still in the build stage.

I'm bettin' he'd have more facts on the performance side of it, but I'm not sure what route he's going with his overall build though.

I still have the factory 383 in the "69 at this point, but it will be receiving the 496 stroker out of my "70 later this year (or next depending on the funds situation).

Then I'm going to switch it over to EFI and go with either Indy and Eddie heads and raise the CR to 10.5:1 (currently 9.5:1).

I'm looking for 650 hp after the upgrades, so my main concern is whether the Keisler will take that kind of power.

I know a 727 with the GV O/D would, but I want to be in complete control of the shifting, you know?

Do you like the feel of the SS rear springs over the HD R/T springs?

I went from the stock floppy base model springs to the HDs and it was night and day firmer.

I just didn't know if the SS would be overkill for road racing, as I thought they were more for drag cars.

That and the shop made me a good deal since they were originally ordered for someone else, but the buyer backed out on them.

What are you using for shocks?

From what I've read on here, Eddie shocks sound like the way to go over let's say KYBs, or comparable shocks.

A quick question about cages.

What's the bare minimun I'd need for what I'm looking to do?

This is already turning out to be a kick@$$ thread!

[RallyeMike]

I may need to have some custom super heavy rear springs made to match the heavier bars that are going to go in. It's great as is to about 100mph. After that, it seems more spring is needed primarily to counter the effects of bumps in the road. Things react a lot different at 140+. Already bounced the oil pan off the pavement around 120 or so once. That was enough.

Until now, I have been running the standard KYB gas shocks. They seems adequate but i may have to shell out for Koni's the faster I go.

Cages: Safety rules for ORR are quite lax compared to others in the roll bar/cage department: Basically roll bar required starting at 120 average speed, and roll cage starting at 130. See specific rules on the sites (below). I think this is mostly because all the guys with the new sports cars would not show up if they had to hack their cars.

If I was starting from scratch on the manual conversion, I would go with a Keisler like you plan. I just happended to have what I need to do it with factory stuff from the parts shed.

If I had to do it all over again, I would have built the car for the 140-155mph classes right from the git-go. I started out at 100mph average which is very doable in a prepared street car. How was I to realize the speed bug would bite so hard?   

[Rolling_Thunder]

Mike - are those 1" torsion bars too hard for the street ?  My car is going to be an all around play toy - I like taking switchbacks and windy roads but i do ALOT of street driving...     I dont mind a firm ride so i am just curious as to how bad the ride it

[RallyeMike]

1" are ok.

Then again, I have 1.09's on my Slant 6 Demon and I like them ! It's really a personnal choice.

[greenrt_se]

I have a 1,03 torsion bars in my 69,whit Firm Feel stage 3 steering,subframe connectors,rearched(straight and add one leaf)rear,whit 1" lowering block and 4 corner disc brakes and Hydroboost,polyurethane bushings front and rear,it`s a nice to drive.Still I have to wait 5.speed trans

[SeattleCharger]

  Good that there is more than just quarter mile times, good thread.     

[Mike DC]

I'm looking for 650 hp after the upgrades, so my main concern is whether the Keisler will take that kind of power.

The Keisler setup can probably take it (it's rumored to have dealt with 700 hp in some cases).  But the Charger's stock 8.75" rearend sure can't take those numbers.  You've got a few different options.  I don't think anything on the market is really ideal for a road-racer at this point.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mopar 8.75" = Likeable, even somewhat beef-able, but still not really strong enough for the job.  Might barely work with enough money thrown at it and never running any drag slicks on the car.

GM 12-bolt = It was the "good one" for 60s Camaros, and of course now Chevy guys mistakenly think it's actually good.  So you pay for a bulletproof rearend and then you don't get one.

Dana 60 = Strong as Fuk.  But it's extremely heavy (250 pounds), and no gearsets taller than 3.54 will even fit into the diff case.

Ford 9" =  Strong as fuk when beefed up.  But it costs some extra HP & runs hot because of the gear mesh angle.  Also rumored to be a Ford product.

         

[Blown70]

I'm looking for 650 hp after the upgrades, so my main concern is whether the Keisler will take that kind of power.

The Keisler setup can probably take it (it's rumored to have dealt with 700 hp in some cases).  But the Charger's stock 8.75" rearend sure can't take those numbers.  You've got a few different options.  I don't think anything on the market is really ideal for a road-racer at this point.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mopar 8.75" = Likeable, even somewhat beef-able, but still not really strong enough for the job.  Might barely work with enough money thrown at it and never running any drag slicks on the car.

GM 12-bolt = It was the "good one" for 60s Camaros, and of course now Chevy guys mistakenly think it's actually good.  So you pay for a bulletproof rearend and then you don't get one.

Dana 60 = Strong as Fuk.  But it's extremely heavy (250 pounds), and no gearsets taller than 3.54 will even fit into the diff case.

Ford 9" =  Strong as fuk when beefed up.  But it costs some extra HP & runs hot because of the gear mesh angle.  Also rumored to be a Ford product.

         

I agree with the above,  I have heard 1200+ hp the dana needs a back pressure housing?  The one that preloads pressure on the mains?  Well I am getting one for mine just to be safe.

I was told a mopar 8 3/4 could handle up to but should not be pushed over 650.  And at that you are pushing it.

Tom

[firefighter3931]

The 83/4 is a pretty tough rear....i'd have no problems running one in a roadracing type application. It's the shockload of transbrakes, slicks and heavy body weights that breaks them. I know lots of guys running them with automatics and heavy cars at the strip with 440ci (550hp) combos and no problems. Horsepower doesn't kill them....lotsa torque and a dead hook does that. 

Ron

[RallyeMike]

It's the shockload of transbrakes, slicks and heavy body weights that breaks them

Absolutely.

There is a guy who has has run btwn 600-750 RWHP with an 8-3/4 for years in Open Road Racing averaging 170mph over the course and topping 200mph. The 8-3/4 diff has never given him any trouble. The 8-3/4 is a much better choice for a roadrace car than the Dana.

[Mike DC]

It's the shockload of transbrakes, slicks and heavy body weights that breaks them. I know lots of guys running them with automatics and heavy cars at the strip with 440ci (550hp) combos and no problems. Horsepower doesn't kill them....lotsa torque and a dead hook does that. 

That's exactly my point though. 

Hell, you could conceivably run a Chevette axle on a Hemi car if you baby the car weight & drivetrain shock loads enough.  If it can take X amount of horsepower as long as you don't use any grippy tires & don't drop the clutch hard, then it can't really take X amount of horsepower.


I agree that the 8.75" rearend is a great rearend for road racing in a lot of cases.  I was just saying that for a 496" stroker making 650 stick-shifted horsepower and decent rear tires, it may be a little overmatched.  The factory was using Dana 60s on weaker cars than that.

             

[THE CHARGER PUNK]

you could always use the alluminum strange s-60-MATT

[Mike DC]

           
Does Strange even make an aluminum version of their Dana 60 rearend?

That would indeed be a good choice.  It would still be heavy as hell, but at least it would be doing what they could about the problem.

--------------------------------------------------------------

I've wondered a few times if it's possible for some company to custom-make a Dana 60 "pig" that bolts into the sheetmetal housing of a Ford 9" or Mopar 8.75.  You could make the custom done "pigs" from aluminum, and basically have the advantages of the banjo-style rearends with the extra strength & low-friction of the Dana 60s.

         

[Johnny SixPack]

Yeah, I'm torn on the 8.75 and Dana 60 decision, but luckily don't have to make it for awhile.  

One thing I do need to decide on is whether to stick with power steering or not.

I've heard that many don't like PS and from what I've read it makes sense, as the steering is just too responsive at high speeds.

RMS' Alter-K unit is offered with either PS or MS, but I'm torn on how far I want to go in removing 'comfort' in the name of performance.

The other reason is that I had envisioned using the Hydroboost system to provide me with plenty of braking power.

I could conceivably use the PS pump for the Hydroboost set up (since I'm almost sure that's the only part it needs), and still use the Alter-K's manual rack and pinion box.

How about you, Mike?

What did you do as for as steering boxes go?

[RallyeMike]

Power 16:1 at first. Did not like due to loss of road feel and too fast a ratio. Also wanted to get rid of the belt. The simpler the better.

Manual 24:1 next. Thought it was a good used box but was just a little sloppy. Also, it just plain reacted too slow in the turn.

Manual 20:1 now. Just right.

[Johnny SixPack]

Power 16:1 at first. Did not like due to loss of road feel and too fast a ratio. Also wanted to get rid of the belt. The simpler the better.

Manual 24:1 next. Thought it was a good used box but was just a little sloppy. Also, it just plain reacted too slow in the turn.

Manual 20:1 now. Just right.

Thanks, man!

That's the way I thought would be the best (MS vs. PS).

Hell, just leisurely driving a PS B-body around town (let alone the highway [55 - 75 mph]) would be reason enough to ditch it for high speed driving (lack of on-center feel, slop, too much 'reaction' in regards to input).

But, since I've never done this, I'm on an intense learning curve in regards to not only the parts, but also their relation/impact to other parts and the vehicle as a whole.

What are you running as far as brakes are concerned?

[RallyeMike]

Stock discs and drums. I know, I know. Needs to be upgraded !

[Johnny SixPack]

Stock discs and drums. I know, I know. Needs to be upgraded !

Busted!!!

Have you heard anything about an independent rear suspension setup built around a Viper center section for B & E-bodies?

There was a tiny blurb in MCG a couple months back, but I've been tryin' to find something about it online, but I haven't found anything about it, or anything along those lines.

As I remember the blurb said it was supposed to be for sale to the public in the future (at the time it was being used on a custom Charger[?]), but I wonder why no one has done this already.

Or is there a product like that out there, but I'm just not looking in the right places?