Almost made $20,000 mistake

[taxspeaker]

I have been looking for a 4 speed car and bidding on several on EBay for several months without any luck. About 2 weeks ago I started bidding on a 68 GTX 4 speed, Dana located about 6 hours away from me in Illinois. Lots of questions back and forth including this specific question "Do the numbers on the VIN match the radiator support and the trunk lip" The direct answer was "All numbers match". We finally agreed on a $20,000 price because the car was rust free with new paint but disassembled.  I wired a $500 deposit last Sunday and scheduled a trip up today with the cash for the difference. I fly for a living and got home about 1:00am Saturday morning and got back up 4 hours later for the 6 hour trip hauling the trailer to Chicago. Once I got there the guy was very nice but kept repeating "Im not gonna bull shit you" which of course got me wondering if he was. After looking at the paint and body on the lift I was still ok with the car-a little rougher than hoped for, but still a Dana and a 4 speed with a date correct 440. When we lowered the car off the lift I immediately checked the VIN on the dash with the Mopar VIN app for the IPhone to make sure it was a real GTX and the same VIN as advertised, and it was, but the dash VIN looked like it had been reinstalled. The fender tag build plate had also been removed, cleaned in some manner and replaced.

Sometimes VIN's are removed when the windshield had been replaced, like this one, but there was no rust on the dash at all which made me a little more concerned. I decided before going any further to check the VIN on the radiator core support and the trunk lip. The radiator core support and the trunk lip VIN were both the same, but did not match the dash VIN or the fender tag. Enough said and I walked away, and got my deposit back and made the tired 6 hour dead head trip home.

So moral of the story-having dealt with Mopars since Ma Mopar got out of high school you learn to always make sure VIN's match and here is my summary of locations from my experience at least on the 68-70 B Bodies. There is a lot of shady stuff or just mistakes being made on these old Mopars and the prices mean that you need to protect yourself. Of course I will defer to corrections or comments from experts, this is just my experience.

Dash vin should show no evidence of removal, replacement or drilling out unless there has been severe dash rust. It is located of course in the driver's side in the extreme lower left  portion of the dash where it meets the windshield, but not quite flush against the bottom. It must be checked to match EXACTLY to the bill of sale, title or other paperwork.

Radiator core support VIN is usually stamped on the inside (radiator side) at the top from 6-12 inches from the center of the support towards the driver's side. It only includes the serial numbers, not the entire VIN. For example if the VIN is RM238G171092 you might only see the 171092 stamped. The last 6 numbers should also match EXACTLY with the dash VIN and paperwork. If you are standing in front of the car, go to the radiator cap area. The radiator is bolted to the core support, the VIN is stamped not on top, but on the inside towards the driver and may be hard to see with paint and 40 years of grime, but it should be there between the support and the radiator-if the radiator is in the car get down and look from the outside with a spotlight and write it down-it will be backwards but hold the paper up to a light the other way and you can then tell what the numbers are. If you cannot see the VIN, feel around if possible. If you are spending any major money at all and cannot find the VIN because of the radiator or other A/C condensers or stuff I would pull the radiator. For the money you are spending you need to make sure this number matches.

Trunk lip VIN is usually stamped the same as the radiator core VIN in my experience anyway, with just the 6 serial numbers althouth I have seen poor stamps for both that can only read 5 numbers. If you are standing at the back of the car open the trunk and look under the weatherstrip on the driver's side of the trunk opening about 1/3 to 1/2 way down the side and the number must again match. If you don't want to pry up the weatherstrip, get in the trunk with a bright light and you can see them backwards.

In both cases sometimes the stamps are so faint it is hard to get more than a couple of numbers, but even those should match up. Also, it is possible that the parts may have been replaced in an accident, major, major, major rust, never correctly stamped, or something I can't think of.

The fender tag information is discussed so many other places I did not repeat it here. I thank 40 year old experience from old Walt Bales (Bales Chrysler Plymouth in Indiana) and Harold Markley (Markley Motors in Colorado) from my old mechanic day-they just saved me $20,000.

[charger_fan_4ever]

Top of the to check list for sure.

I'd be afraid to buy any restored high dollar car unless it had a boatload of documentation and history. Atleast a project in a box u know what you get.

Any idea where the body #'s are on A bodies ?

Had two 70 340 dusters and never could find any body numbers on either. I just assume rad support and trunk gutter like B Bodies but nope.

[Moparpoolman]

I have a 1968 GTX 4spd that's been in the family since new.  In 1968 the rad core support and the trunk lip DO NOT match the VIN but match the sequence number on the fender tag which is NOT the VIN number on the dash.  The VIN number on a orig motor would be in the rear of the motor up top where the bell housing meets the block.  The trans would have the VIN on it same as dash.  You might of walked from a real deal....

[68RT440]

I have a 1968 GTX 4spd that's been in the family since new.  In 1968 the rad core support and the trunk lip DO NOT match the VIN but match the sequence number on the fender tag which is NOT the VIN number on the dash.  The VIN number on a orig motor would be in the rear of the motor up top where the bell housing meets the block.  The trans would have the VIN on it same as dash.  You might of walked from a real deal....

+1, check out this thread:

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,17398.0.html

[moparfan53]

 Apparently the seller did not have enough Mopar numbers knowledge either as he did not correct/advise the OP that the body numbers are not supposed to match the vin on '68 cars. Some info/research on the sellers part might have saved him a sale.

[charger_fan_4ever]

Ah yes true pre 69-70 you needed the buildsheet to match up the numbers.

[charger Downunder]

So you did make a mistake. go make an offer and grab that car.

[Bob T]

I have a 1968 GTX 4spd that's been in the family since new.  In 1968 the rad core support and the trunk lip DO NOT match the VIN but match the sequence number on the fender tag which is NOT the VIN number on the dash.  The VIN number on a orig motor would be in the rear of the motor up top where the bell housing meets the block.  The trans would have the VIN on it same as dash.  You might of walked from a real deal....

I have a 68 R/T and the sequence is as you describe it. 69 was the change /all match year I believe.
I seem to remeber a thread Dans68 did a while back on vins.
Taxspeaker, maybe its worth a second look  Depends how you feel about the rest of the car I guess

[Mytur Binsdirti]

[Tilar]

The OP didn't say if the fender tag matched the VIN or the radiator support... Didn't they change about mid stream in 68 to where all the numbers were the VIN number?

If the fender tag matched the VIN and not the radiator support and trunk lip, it sounds like maybe the OP is right in his assumption. If the fender tag matches everything but the VIN, it might be a legit car.  Am I thinking this right?

[NHCharger]

The OP didn't say if the fender tag matched the VIN or the radiator support... Didn't they change about mid stream in 68 to where all the numbers were the VIN number?

I thought the only thing that changed mid stream in 68 was that starting 1/1/68 everyone had to have the car's vin stamped somewhere on the engine block??

[BrianShaughnessy]

I have 2 friends with 68 X's and frankly I don't get hung up on the numbers on 68s or earliers.   Both were restored and one has been in multiple magazines.    I dunno about their numbers but it doesn't take away that they are both beautiful cars.

I "know" of people that have faked engine / trans numbers but I wouldn't do that myself.   Myself I don't get hung up on numbers much at all....  I prefer it that way.   

If it was a nice car for $20K or not is all the matters...    if you don't believe him then make an offer based on what you think it's worth if it wasn't matching numbers.

   

[Homerr]

Better call the seller back and tell him that you'll offer $10,000 since the body numbers don't match the VIN.   

[Cooter]

Seller...
"I'm not gonna bullsh*t you, the car is sold"

[Stevearino]

Got my 68 Charger shell out of Georgia with just a bill of sale so in the process of getting a title here in North Carolina I had to have a DMV inspector come out and look at the vin numbers. The number on the radiator support matched the number on the deck rim but did not match the dash and the fender plate did not match anything. This car was parked and gutted in 76 and you can tell there were no repairs or restorations or manipulations of the plates. The DMV guy just took the number from the dash and I got my inoperable title until I finish my build.

[A383Wing]

so after all this...did the OP get his $500 deposit back?

[Tilar]

The OP didn't say if the fender tag matched the VIN or the radiator support... Didn't they change about mid stream in 68 to where all the numbers were the VIN number?

I thought the only thing that changed mid stream in 68 was that starting 1/1/68 everyone had to have the car's vin stamped somewhere on the engine block??

The radiator support, trunk lip and fender tag all had the order number instead of the VIN until sometime in 68. I just looked mine up and my 68 has a SPD of June 24, 1968 and the fender tag has the order number on it, so it was sometime after that. The original engine for mine was long gone so I don't know if it had the VIN on it or not.

[Tilar]

so after all this...did the OP get his $500 deposit back?

Yup.

The radiator core support and the trunk lip VIN were both the same, but did not match the dash VIN or the fender tag. Enough said and I walked away, and got my deposit back and made the tired 6 hour dead head trip home.

[Dave Kanofsky]

I'm near the southside of Chicago, do you mind sharing who the seller is/was? 
Maybe I know of them or the car...

[Mytur Binsdirti]

I'm near the southside of Chicago,

Is that the baddest part of town?

[Dans 68]

The OP didn't say if the fender tag matched the VIN or the radiator support... Didn't they change about mid stream in 68 to where all the numbers were the VIN number?

I thought the only thing that changed mid stream in 68 was that starting 1/1/68 everyone had to have the car's vin stamped somewhere on the engine block??

The radiator support, trunk lip and fender tag all had the order number instead of the VIN until sometime in 68. I just looked mine up and my 68 has a SPD of June 24, 1968 and the fender tag has the order number on it, so it was sometime after that. The original engine for mine was long gone so I don't know if it had the VIN on it or not.

Starting with the '69 models the vin number matched the fender tag number. The 68's did not match, no matter when made in 1968.

Dan

[moparfan53]

I'm near the southside of Chicago,

Is that the baddest part of town?

  Another Jim Croce fan I see...

[Tilar]

The OP didn't say if the fender tag matched the VIN or the radiator support... Didn't they change about mid stream in 68 to where all the numbers were the VIN number?

I thought the only thing that changed mid stream in 68 was that starting 1/1/68 everyone had to have the car's vin stamped somewhere on the engine block??

The radiator support, trunk lip and fender tag all had the order number instead of the VIN until sometime in 68. I just looked mine up and my 68 has a SPD of June 24, 1968 and the fender tag has the order number on it, so it was sometime after that. The original engine for mine was long gone so I don't know if it had the VIN on it or not.

Starting with the '69 models the vin number matched the fender tag number. The 68's did not match, no matter when made in 1968.

Dan

Ok, Now I understand. It started in 68 but with the 69 year models.      And just to clarify, the only thing to tie the VIN and the SO number together on a 68 is the build sheet?

[Dans 68]

The OP didn't say if the fender tag matched the VIN or the radiator support... Didn't they change about mid stream in 68 to where all the numbers were the VIN number?

I thought the only thing that changed mid stream in 68 was that starting 1/1/68 everyone had to have the car's vin stamped somewhere on the engine block??

The radiator support, trunk lip and fender tag all had the order number instead of the VIN until sometime in 68. I just looked mine up and my 68 has a SPD of June 24, 1968 and the fender tag has the order number on it, so it was sometime after that. The original engine for mine was long gone so I don't know if it had the VIN on it or not.

Starting with the '69 models the vin number matched the fender tag number. The 68's did not match, no matter when made in 1968.

Dan

Ok, Now I understand. It started in 68 but with the 69 year models.     And just to clarify, the only thing to tie the VIN and the SO number together on a 68 is the build sheet?

Yep. It ended in '68 but was used in prior years also.  

Dan

[Dave Kanofsky]

I'm near the southside of Chicago,

Is that the baddest part of town?

  Another Jim Croce fan I see...

I look like a jigsaw puzzle with a couple of pieces gone!