Power window wiring upgrade - relays

[Dino]

We all know about the headlight relay mod, I finished mine a few weeks ago, but has anyone done something similar to the power window wiring?

I have yet to replace a few burnt wires and connectors on some of the motors and I have not cleaned up the whole wiring loom but before I do I think it would be wise to install some relays here as well. 

My car did not come with power windows so I don't have the circuit breaker either.  What I have is all the wiring for a C-body, which seems identical to that of a B-body btw.  Would anyone know what the best solution would be to keep power out of the stock switches and keeping everything safe and secure?

[Pete in NH]

Hi Dino,

Using relays on the power windows would be an excellent idea to save the door switch contacts. I don't know if anyone is making reproduction switches, if not, relays are the way to go to save the originals. Direct Current (DC) is very hard on switch and relay contacts because it really arcs. That arcing melts the contact surfaces over time. I'd have to look at a wiring diagram to see how many relays you would need because you somehow have to deal with both the driver's side master switch and the local door switch on the passenger side. You'll need at least an up and down relay to reverse the power polarity at each motor. If you really want to persue this we can work out the wiring.

[Dino]

Hi Dino,

Using relays on the power windows would be an excellent idea to save the door switch contacts. I don't know if anyone is making reproduction switches, if not, relays are the way to go to save the originals. Direct Current (DC) is very hard on switch and relay contacts because it really arcs. That arcing melts the contact surfaces over time. I'd have to look at a wiring diagram to see how many relays you would need because you somehow have to deal with both the driver's side master switch and the local door switch on the passenger side. You'll need at least an up and down relay to reverse the power polarity at each motor. If you really want to persue this we can work out the wiring.

Hi Pete,

I sure do want to do this.  I have been doing a lot of mods to the wiring to make sure it works better than before and keeps working that way.  It would be foolish of me to neglect the power window wiring!   

With the low cost of relays and circuit breakers, I'll stick in as many as needed.  I have the wiring diagram on my home pc so I will post it tonight.


 

[Dino]

I found the diagram online and cropped it to get rid of the cruise control wiring.  I don't have the software here to straighten it out though.   

I also compared it to the C-body wiring and it looks to be identical.

[Pete in NH]

Dino,

I found the same wiring diagram in my 69 Plymouth FSM. There is a lot of switching going on in that driver's side master switch that would require a large number of relays to duplicate. So, what I came up with is a three relay module that would be located at each window motor. The switches all have a center off function so, it takes one relay to control the power and two more to get the up or down function. This approach also requires an additional 12 volt  feed wire from a master circuit breaker at each window. If this all sounds workable to you I'll clean up my drawing of the circuit and post it for you

[Dino]

12 relays total + an extra 4 power wires?  That's a lot of relays but if it does the job then that's what I'll do!  Thanks for the help Pete, I really appreciate it.   

[tsmithae]

I could be wrong, but can't you use just 2 relays per motor with positive battery feed to each pair of relays?  One relay per wire to motor that defaults to a grounded position and when switched applies 12v to the appropriate wire.  I'll attach a picture to show what I am talking about.

[A383Wing]

I don't think the above diagram will work, relay is energized and power flows through 30 to 87 terminals. You don't want power flowing through 87a terminal to motor all the time. Motor will burn up

However, this can be done with 8 relays total, 2 for each door, one for up, one for down....it's gonna be a lot of wiring & extra parts....personally, I don't think it's worth it

[tsmithae]

That diagram is for one window, I guess I should have been more specific. 87a, also, is connected to ground, not power and  there is no way that the motor would be seeing constant power with that setup. the switch sends power down one wire for up and one wire for down and instead of actually powering the motor it will activate the relay, which means MUCH lower draw across the switch itself and the relay takes the brunt of everything.  Total parts needed for the above diagram would be: 8 Relays, enough cable to wire a (preferably keyed) power source to all 4 windows, terminals to connect everything, fuses and an accessory fuse block, and misc small bits.

[Pete in NH]

Hi,

I'm not going to post what I came up with because it does use an extra relay and tsmithae's circuit uses only two and will work fine as far as I can tell. I still think using relays is a good way to preserve the window switches even if it does add a bit of complication.

[Dino]

That'll work!   

I have to add that my car did not come with power windows.  I bought all the parts needed but have to install them still.  This means I need to remove the doors so I can drill for the loom and swap the regs.  And that's on top of just installing the loom itself!  That's a lot of work so adding a few wires and relays is really no big deal.  When you have power windows installed already and they work then yes it may be overkill, although taking the power away from the switches seems like a good idea any way you cut it.

My wiring loom is also separated now so it's real easy to add wires.

With this setup, worst case scenario a relay gets overloaded and blows so I'll be without the ability to move that window until I can replace it and trace the origin of the problem.  That's a whole lot better than explaining what happened to the fire chief!   

I have a ton of stuff to do for school so I'll take my time going over the schematic over the weekend.  If anyone has any other ideas or sees an issue then I'll be happy to hear it.

[tsmithae]

Sorry Pete, I don't mean to steal your thunder by any means. 

Let me know if you have any questions Dino, I'd be more than happy to help ya out! With the primary wires you will want to make sure to get wire that is rated for around 15 amps (14 I think will do it, 12 will do it for sure and allow for loss for the longer runs to the rear windows).  Also, I didn't label it but those red boxes are the symbol for a fuse; come to think of it, you could probably use 4 fuses in the dash, run a single 12AWG wire to each window and split the power there seeing as only one relay can operate at a time. 

[Dino]

I'm using 12 awg for the power wires, better safe than sorry.

I'm glad you mentioned operating one relay at a time.  Made me remember that I have another toy to splice into this system:

A DEI 530T automatic power window module!

http://www.directed.com/guides/manuals/ig/accessories/N530T_1-00.pdf

This will go under the console (or dash) and will turn the switches into 1 touch switches as on modern cars.  It will also give me the ability to raise and lower the windows by remote.

I'm not making it easy am I?   

[Pete in NH]

HI Tsmithae,

Not a problem at all! I like simple elegant solutions and yours is! I guess if I had thought it through a little more I would have seen my extra power control relay wasn't needed. When I compared my solution to yours, I saw the extra relay was in fact not needed. Dino, it sounds like you're on your way with the power windows project.

[Dino]

Yep!   

I have a few other projects I'm doing first as it's getting chilly out there and I can play with window wiring inside, but at least I'll be able to see where everything goes so I can hook up the whole thing outside of the car to see if it works properly.

I will try to combine this diagram + the DEI module diagram and post it here so you can look it over before I start cutting wires!   

Thanks for the help fellas!   

[ChargerST]

Hey Dino,
check this out: http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Number=4775992

Also look up the RY246 relay... just one relay per motor 

[myk]

What convinced you to go to power-windows?  I'm toying with the idea myself...

[Dino]

Hey Dino,
check this out: http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Number=4775992

Also look up the RY246 relay... just one relay per motor 

Thanks!  That was good reading.     I'll check that relay as well.

What convinced you to go to power-windows?  I'm toying with the idea myself...

Because I get tired of pulling over to adjust the windows.     I've been spoiled by power windows and it's a creature comfort I didn't want to give up.  I looked closely at the options on my daily that I really like so I'm duplicating them on the Charger.  For example I love having the option to open all the windows from my desk to get the heat out before I drive home.

I would never do all this work if the car was a Sunday cruiser though but when you drive the car as much as I do then I think it's worth the effort. 

[myk]

Hey Dino,
check this out: http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Number=4775992

Also look up the RY246 relay... just one relay per motor 

Thanks!  That was good reading.     I'll check that relay as well.

What convinced you to go to power-windows?  I'm toying with the idea myself...

Because I get tired of pulling over to adjust the windows.     I've been spoiled by power windows and it's a creature comfort I didn't want to give up.  I looked closely at the options on my daily that I really like so I'm duplicating them on the Charger.  For example I love having the option to open all the windows from my desk to get the heat out before I drive home.

I would never do all this work if the car was a Sunday cruiser though but when you drive the car as much as I do then I think it's worth the effort. 

Hmmmm....you're getting me thinking about power windows as well.  May sound stupid, but....Are you keeping the cranks on, or does it not work like that?

[fy469rtse]

Dino , I think if it was me doing it, how about doing one window door first and see if lower resistance direct power to motor improves its operation , which I think you know that answer , good upgrades

[Dino]

I'm not positive that the stock window setup won't do the job, it may very well be adequate.  But for the price of a few relays I can make sure AND keep the system secure.  I'd rather have a relay blow then have a switch get toasty and ruin my door panel.

Myk you can buy power window switches that look like crank handles and although they are a nice solution for those who want to keep their car looking stock, I'm not one of them.  Your stock cranks cannot be converted though. The switches I'm using are correct for 69 so it will look like the car came from the factory with them.  With the crank switches you can only operate one window at a time and with my setup you can activate all 4 with one touch inside or by remote. 

[myk]

I'm not positive that the stock window setup won't do the job, it may very well be adequate.  But for the price of a few relays I can make sure AND keep the system secure.  I'd rather have a relay blow then have a switch get toasty and ruin my door panel.

Myk you can buy power window switches that look like crank handles and although they are a nice solution for those who want to keep their car looking stock, I'm not one of them.  Your stock cranks cannot be converted though. The switches I'm using are correct for 69 so it will look like the car came from the factory with them.  With the crank switches you can only operate one window at a time and with my setup you can activate all 4 with one touch inside or by remote. 

It's not about originality, rather I'm not sure I understand what happens to the cranks after the power window motors are installed; are they removed and the door panel...."patched" over where the cranks used to be, or what?  I imagine it'd be silly to watch the cranks spinning around pointlessly while the power window motors lower and raise the windows without them lol...

[A383Wing]

the original power window switches go in place of the stock window cranks.

There are kits out there that utilize switches that have the stock roll-down manual cranks attached. you just move the handle down or up to move the glass. The cranks do not "spin around"

[Dino]

I must've put my brain in backwards today and I can't figure this out so I'm asking for a big favor.

When I bought the power window wiring harness, I knew that the yellow wire was the main power wire.  When I thought about adding relays to build a safety in, I think I still had a grasp of it all.  But now that I also need to add the DEI module, I can't see the forest through the trees any more.   

The original system had a 30 amp circuit breaker and a relay so there would be no power to the windows unless the ignition was in the 'on' position.  The circuit breaker bolts to the ammeter.  The yellow wire comes from the circuit breaker.  Do I have it right so far?  The original relay is a 3 prong, is it the same unit as the circuit breaker or is this a separate one?

The favor is looking at the first few pages of this pdf.  It shows how to figure out what type of system this is, but all I'm figuring out is that I can't figure it out!  Now with this module, do I still need relays or does it take care of that?  I just want to make sure I don't roast anything.

http://www.directed.com/guides/manuals/ig/accessories/N530T_1-00.pdf

[Pete in NH]

Hi Dino,

I think your brain is doing just fine today. I read through the DEI instructions and my brain is not doing too well now! Those instructions are not the most well written I've ever seen. Anyway, my take on it is - the original 1969 Chrysler system would be what DEI calls a type C system. I'm more than a bit confused by what you are trying to do. Does this DEI system do more than control the windows? I though you were looking at upgrading the original Chrysler system with relays, which made sense to me. This DEI system, if it only controls the windows would not require the added relays as best I can understand the DEI instructions. They either have their own internal relays or some other control mechanism. My best understanding of the DEI instructions is that it is some kind of micro-controller system. Those DIP switches they ask you to set are to tell the micro-controller what to do with various type window systems.

On the power feed they are just looking for a fused 12 volt line. I don't think they want it to be off when the ignition key is off as the original Chrysler system would be with the ignition key controlled relay. If I'm reading the DEI instructions right they want power to be available all the time if the DEI system is tied in with an alarm system.

All this is getting way too complicated for my tastes. I'm not a big fan of overly complex electronic controls but, that does seem to be the way of the world today.