Questions about my VIN tag.

[TUFCAT]

I am currently involve with some other VERY important things like watching the paint dry on my Office walls.  Just as soon as I am finished with that, I'll get right on "detecting fake broadcasts". 

Okay now that's funny!!    Finally some actual and much needed humor from you. LOL 

[ECS]

this is a moot discussion.....

That's correct Gene!  I wonder why Broadcast Sheets were even brought up?  I don't recall a Broadcast Sheet ever being mentioned in the story about this Charger.  The article stated that "Dave Wise" and "everyone" who documented the car agreed that the VIN plate, Fender Tag and VIN label appeared to be 100% Factory correct.  I find it odd that some here continue to ignore those comments and change the subject matter to areas totally unrelated to the situation.  

For the record, I have more time and money invested in reproducing the Chrysler Window Stickers than Broadcast Sheets.  I quit offering those quite a while back and have THOUSANDS of blank copies sitting in storage.

[ECS]

......you done a awesome job on the challenger , remember reading about it in a mopar mag.

Thank you very much! 

[69CoronetRT]

...this is a moot discussion since ECS has clearly stated that Broadcast Sheets are no longer available and haven't been for some time.

Actually it is directly on point with the original topic....

Dave proved fake documents (VINs, tags, BS, WS) that pass they eye test of 'experts' can be made, have been made and will be made. ECS doesn't make BS any more but who's to say someone else isn't?

When a car like the this Charger that supposedly never existed (remember all those pages ago???) pops up, question everything that says it's 'unique', 'special', 'one of none'. Be skeptical. Be suspicious. Verify all claims.

[ws23rt]

This topic has indeed moved back and forth. But seems to be back to the reason it has been going on for so long.

The issue of faking cars is the issue here is it not?

When a document can fool most experts than it can fool a buyer because they may rely on the experts to make their purchase decision.

We have categories like original, restored original, clone, barn find, etc.  When a car has documents that fool the experts who is going to tell the experts they are fooled?  Who will tell the buyer they are fooled.

The appropriate category for that car is --fake car--

If their is no identifier in the documents or the car than a fraud it is.

All I see is a high risk for buyers and sellers because these things can get found out (and should be).

The other affect is a dilution in the value of many cars because of the credibility of a few

[ECS]

When a car has documents that fool the experts who is going to tell the experts they are fooled?

Everyone assumes the "experts" are on the up & up with everything.  I know for a fact that some "experts" are actually part of the "faking" process.  They get paid under the table by the scammers to certify their phony cars.  It's an incestuous mess and a black eye for the Hobby.  Don't assume that the problem is just with the people who are finding and working towards falsifying the cars.  Follow the trail of those who are involved with every aspect of the process.  In this case, power breeds corruption.

[68pplcharger]

When a car has documents that fool the experts who is going to tell the experts they are fooled?

Everyone assumes the "experts" are on the up & up with everything.  I know for a fact that some "experts" are actually part of the "faking" process.  They get paid under the table by the scammers to certify their phony cars.  It's an incestuous mess and a black eye for the Hobby.  Don't assume that the problem is just with the people who are finding and working towards falsifying the cars.  Follow the trail of those who are involved with every aspect of the process.  In this case, power breeds corruption.

Agreed and the reason for my comments earlier. I hate to sounds like a conspiracy theory guy, but this story just has to many elements to ignore and money is definitely going to corrupt.

[Moparpoolman]

When a car has documents that fool the experts who is going to tell the experts they are fooled?

Everyone assumes the "experts" are on the up & up with everything.  I know for a fact that some "experts" are actually part of the "faking" process.  They get paid under the table by the scammers to certify their phony cars.  It's an incestuous mess and a black eye for the Hobby.  Don't assume that the problem is just with the people who are finding and working towards falsifying the cars.  Follow the trail of those who are involved with every aspect of the process.  In this case, power breeds corruption.

This brings back a sour memory for me, a couple of years ago I looked at a 70 Hemi Charger that there was a report from an "expert" on.  The broker kept mentioning that the car was so great because of this report.  After looking at the car, I found so many things wrong with the car that weren't included in the report and many things that were incorrect in the report.  The major thing was the Cast date of the engine block was 1968 and the report had 1969 written in it.  When I asked the broker of the car about this, he told me to take it up with the "expert" that wrote the report.  In order to ask the "expert" questions I would have had to give a credit card to them over the internet, email the questions and they would charge to answer them.  There were many other things wrong and had to walk away from the deal.  The car has been to Barrett Jackson (no sale) and is still for sale today so it looks like I did the right thing.
I think the best attitude to have is that if there is any doubt or question with anything about a car, you are better off to assume it is NOT what it is claimed to be and find out later it IS rather to think it IS something special and find out later it is NOT.

[hemigeno]

When a car like the this Charger that supposedly never existed (remember all those pages ago???) pops up, question everything that says it's 'unique', 'special', 'one of none'. Be skeptical. Be suspicious. Verify all claims.

You're preachin' to the choir, Doug...  

My reference to a moot discussion has everything to do with criticism of ECS for reproduction broadcast sheets that haven't been available now for +/- 4 years (the earlier 2010 Moparts quote conveniently omitted the sentence in the same post where Dave stated For the record....No I do not sell them and will not sell them.) and has nothing to do with marginalizing the ethical points you raised.

Besides, no Broadcast Sheet for this particular car has ever been offered up as evidence - and you & I would both be at least initially skeptical of anything that DID purport to verify a V-code, A/C & cruise combo. 

[ECS]

.....this story just has to many elements to ignore and money is definitely going to corrupt.

It's not a conspiracy.  Connect the dots, see who is rubbing elbows with who and which people have the most to gain.  This is real and has been happening for quite some time.  First you set up a certification business.  Then you set up a judging system where the standards coincide with your certification requirements.  Then you instill restoration friends as a support network to enforce your skewed "standards".  

This small (purposed & calculating) group of people now control all facets for the direction of our Hobby.  Their judging/certification process influences the way the cars are restored, this allows the judges (who are restoration Shop owners) to determine how things should be restored, in turn it allows those Shop owners to acquire new business based on their fabricated requirements and provides the certification "gurus" the opportunity to manipulate which car gets a higher certification score.  The deeper your pockets, the better your results!  The system feeds itself from within.

[68pplcharger]

.....this story just has to many elements to ignore and money is definitely going to corrupt.

It's not a conspiracy.  Connect the dots, see who is rubbing elbows with who and which people have the most to gain.  This is real and has been happening for quite some time.  First you set up a certification business.  Then you set up a judging system where the standards coincide with your certification requirements.  Then you instill restoration friends as a support network to enforce your skewed "standards".  

This small (purposed & calculating) group of people now control all facets for the direction of our Hobby.  Their judging/certification process influences the way the cars are restored, this allows the judges (who are restoration Shop owners) to determine how things should be restored, in turn it allows those Shop owners to acquire new business based on their fabricated requirements and provides the certification "gurus" the opportunity to manipulate which car gets a higher certification score.  The deeper your pockets, the better your results!  The system feeds itself from within.

No doubt, I mention the conspiracy only for the purist who need undeniable truth about a "network" to exist.

[TUFCAT]

When a car has documents that fool the experts who is going to tell the experts they are fooled?

Everyone assumes the "experts" are on the up & up with everything.  I know for a fact that some "experts" are actually part of the "faking" process.  They get paid under the table by the scammers to certify their phony cars.  It's an incestuous mess and a black eye for the Hobby.  Don't assume that the problem is just with the people who are finding and working towards falsifying the cars.  Follow the trail of those who are involved with every aspect of the process.  In this case, power breeds corruption.

Not looking for a fight , I'm looking at this like "The Mopar of Devils Advocates" . I've said before...I hate fakes of any sort, and despise all people who fake things.

The only thing you said.... that makes any sense to me is: "The deeper your pockets, the better your results"....and there's really nothing wrong with that logic.  

It seems according to you, there are some people so well-connected and intertwined as to have created a plot of scheming, planning, to take over the entire Mopar world?  That's just ridiculous paranoia.  

If anything there's a new obsession towards correctness on Mopars, especially with the uber wealthy who can afford such a luxury.  I'm sure like anything else, it was the huge ego's that got in the way, similar to what's happened with Corvettes, Shelby Mustangs, COPO, etc...

So who should we blame for this?  Certainly not the experts!  For the most part they're the only ones who are policing this stuff!  For my two cents worth, I don't think you tied together the logic that experts have destroyed the Mopar hobby.  

Once again in my own opinion it's the huge ego's, ultra competitiveness, and "one upsmanship" that drive's someone to fake a car.... and then sell it off without so much as a worry as to what it might do to the hobby.  

These people only want what others can't have and are willing to do whatever it takes.  I don't see any other root cause except for the obvious "self-entitlement" these fakers must possess to create these cars....and the obvious money to be made.   For this reason I'm doubtful any "deliberate faking" in our hobby had anything to do with experts, restoration shops, or judges. They have too much to lose and not much to gain from what I can tell. These guys are small potatoes compared to "kings of cash" at Barrett-Jackson style auctions, and the mega-dollar private sale transactions between collectors.

It's been said garbage in, garbage out...and even you have been known to be fooled by a title.  If these notorious uber wealthy people have such good connections to get things done with a secret handshake and a "wink-wink" over a martini at the marina, then they could probably even fake a title, or have one made that would fool you or anyone else.  ...which in a nutshell, is what this entire thread is about.  

[ECS]

then it seems they could probably even fake a title, or have one made that would fool you or anyone else.....

Did you ignore the post I made that referenced REAL TITLES issued to "fake" cars?  It has happened MANY times.  It's not a matter of getting fooled because the Title document is real.  There was a DMV in Alabama that was fooled by a scammer and issued a "real" Title for a "fake" car.  How would anyone who saw the Title know that it was a "fake" unless you knew what was happening prior to the Title being issued?  

Your comment about being paranoid is comical at best.  I know POSITIVELY that there are "experts" in the Hobby who have used their "power" to control and manipulate circumstances for their selfish ambitions.  You might think I'm paranoid but I can guarantee that you are naive to think otherwise.  

[69CoronetRT]

When a car has documents that fool the experts who is going to tell the experts they are fooled?

Everyone assumes the "experts" are on the up & up with everything.  I know for a fact that some "experts" are actually part of the "faking" process.  They get paid under the table by the scammers to certify their phony cars.  It's an incestuous mess and a black eye for the Hobby.  Don't assume that the problem is just with the people who are finding and working towards falsifying the cars.  Follow the trail of those who are involved with every aspect of the process.  In this case, power breeds corruption.

...
It seems according to you, there are some people so well-connected and intertwined as to have created a plot of scheming, planning, to take over the entire Mopar world?  That's just ridiculous paranoia.  

....So who should we lame for this?  Certainly not the experts!  For the most part they're the only ones who are policing this stuff!  For my two cents worth, I don't think you tied together the logic that experts have destroyed the Mopar hobby.  

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men."-Lord Acton.

"Unlimited power is apt to corrupt the minds of those who possess it" William Pitt, The Elder

[resq302]

If anything there's a new obsession towards correctness on Mopars, especially with the uber wealthy who can afford such a luxury.  I'm sure like anything else, it was the huge ego's that got in the way, similar to what's happened with Corvettes, Shelby Mustangs, COPO, etc...

So by that thinking, Tom, I must be "uber wealthy" which I am certainly far from.  Neither is my father. If it wasn't for the initial pedigree of the GTX, I wouldn't be going completely crazy on it.

[HANDM]

This whole thread has got me remembering a comment made by if I recall correctly, Dave from "Totally Auto" in High Performance Mopar magazine at least twenty years ago and I am paraphrasing here......if you own a 318 or /6 or other low optioned Charger, Challenger or Barracuda, then the best thing to do for the hobby, is to cut them up and sell them as parts so no one in the future can clone them into something they are not.

At the time, I thought it was crazy........

Now I see that he was a prophet who saw all of this long before we did......

[TUFCAT]

So by that thinking, Tom, I must be "uber wealthy" which I am certainly far from.  Neither is my father. If it wasn't for the initial pedigree of the GTX, I wouldn't be going completely crazy on it.

I totally get the reason why you're restoring the GTX this way. Its a great car and I respect the hell out what you've been able to do with it.  I really mean that.  My point is... this may sound sad but, the real "uber wealthy" might not appreciate the same things that you and your Dad do.

[ECS]

if you own a 318 or /6 .......then the best thing to do for the hobby, is to cut them up and sell them as parts.....

When you think like that, the crooks win!  Here's what I did with my 4 Door Slant 6 Valiant.  I like it better than my Hemicuda.........and I'm being serious! 

[resq302]

So by that thinking, Tom, I must be "uber wealthy" which I am certainly far from.  Neither is my father. If it wasn't for the initial pedigree of the GTX, I wouldn't be going completely crazy on it.

I totally get the reason why you're restoring the GTX this way. Its a great car and I respect the hell out what you've been able to do with it.  I really mean that.  My point is... this may sound sad but, the real "uber wealthy" might not appreciate the same things that you and your Dad do.

What I am about to say, I mean no disrespect to the people who do their cars this way.  Some people do not have the time nor the experience to do a lot of the things that other people can/can't do.  So please, take it for what it is and no harm intended.

I had a chief judge come up to me at a NCPC show last year and he told me something that stuck in my head which made me feel really good.  His exact words were "between your car and the car the one next to you, I put more weight in your car since you learned to do the work yourself.  You didn't just write a check to someone.  Anyone can write a check."  That in itself spoke volumes with the quality of my work.  Kinda made me feel real good deep down inside.   

[ECS]

Okay now that's funny!!

Not as "funny" as you adopting the name "rocco barnard".  Isn't that the name my graphics guy (Jon) used to sign onto moparts so we could defend the lies about our glass products?  Come on Tuffy..........you can do better than that.  

http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=A12&Number=8069883&Searchpage=2&Main=8038077&Words=resq302&topic=&Search=true#Post8069883

[TUFCAT]

Ha....That's being a little too hard on old Rocco!

[ECS]

Ha....That's being a little too hard on old Rocco!

All this talk about being too "hard" on someone prompted me to go back and look at the people who asked for me to make Broadcast Sheets in the past.  Did you know that one of the "experts" had me make 4 of them for his cars?  Remember how you called me paranoid about some people "so well-connected and intertwined as to have created a plot of scheming, planning, to take over the entire Mopar world" in an earlier post?  You apparently must know more than you admit because your "parts supplier" also had 3 of them made!  They all said the same thing when they asked to have them reproduced!  They just wanted them "for novelty reasons to display with their cars".  They must have had a change of heart somewhere along the line because they ended up being used and advertised as the "real" Broadcast Sheets.  

[resq302]

Dave,

Surely, no one would do such a thing!       After all, wasn't it a certain person who claimed that his build sheet was original yet it was bigger than everyone elses?  (at least that is what it appeared in the picture) 

[DAY CLONA]

I kind of glanced/glossed over the OP's board name, however looking back, it's rather "humorous"...and fitting based on the outcome

[charger_fan_4ever]

Sooooooo
Whats everyone think ?

In a nutshell is it a fair "assumption"that this was a 440 car with all these options and somehow the Vin plate actually came with a V instead of U from the factory ? From there a fender tag and Door vin were reproduced with the V instead of U ?