Questions about my VIN tag.

[resq302]

Regardless of the fact that David Wise's report hasn't been posted, it would seem that the report "validated" the vehicle, why else would it have changed hands so quickly, along with some Magazine coverage, and the new owner touting it as the real deal?...would one purchase a vehicle knowing that an "expert" evaluation of the facts presented were questionable?....after this boondoggle revelation of current facts, I don't think anyone will ever see/hear of Wise's evaluation report

would that make it "un"-Wise if we never saw it?   

[Y1CHARGER]

Maybe the report will be on display along with the car at Carlisle this year as mentioned in the video.  I wonder if they will restore that "original" A/C compressor they found in the trunk? I can't wait to see it.....

[resq302]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0H3rdfI28s0


Couldn't have said it better about making that choice! 

[ECS]

This is why if you are going to be considered an "expert" in this hobby, you had better know what you are doing.  

I mentioned something similar in an earlier post.  When these "experts" validate wrong features as being correct in "attention detail", how can ANYONE trust that they know the difference between a fake or real component?  They think that sand blasted aluminum, incorrect overspray patterns and reproduction VIN items look Factory original.  

There is a "clique" of individuals who are trying to control the Hobby and re-write history to facilitate their agenda.  They manipulate things by "judging" at Car Shows and "certifying" vehicles.  The Cars are being judged by Restoration Shop Owners.  The truth is that they don't "judge" the correctness of a vehicle, they overlook incorrect features to compensate for their inability to restore a vehicle back to Assembly Line condition!  What's right becomes wrong and vice versa.  It's reminiscent of the Hooterville Kangaroo Court where the Judge, Jury and Prosecutor are all a bunch of Friends and Relatives.  Conflict of interest!

[TUFCAT]

This is why if you are going to be considered an "expert" in this hobby, you had better know what you are doing.  

I mentioned something similar in an earlier post.  When these "experts" validate wrong features as being correct in "attention detail", how can ANYONE trust that they know the difference between a fake or real component?  They think that sand blasted aluminum, incorrect overspray patterns and reproduction VIN items look Factory original.  

There is a "clique" of individuals who are trying to control the Hobby and re-write history to facilitate their agenda.  They manipulate things by "judging" at Car Shows and "certifying" vehicles.  The Cars are being judged by Restoration Shop Owners.  The truth is that they don't "judge" the correctness of a vehicle, they overlook incorrect features to compensate for their inability to restore a vehicle back to Assembly Line condition!  What's right becomes wrong and vice versa.  It's reminiscent of the Hooterville Kangaroo Court where the Judge, Jury and Prosecutor are all a bunch of Friends and Relatives.  Conflict of interest!

[resq302]

This is why if you are going to be considered an "expert" in this hobby, you had better know what you are doing.  

I mentioned something similar in an earlier post.  When these "experts" validate wrong features as being correct in "attention detail", how can ANYONE trust that they know the difference between a fake or real component?  They think that sand blasted aluminum, incorrect overspray patterns and reproduction VIN items look Factory original.  

There is a "clique" of individuals who are trying to control the Hobby and re-write history to facilitate their agenda.  They manipulate things by "judging" at Car Shows and "certifying" vehicles.  The Cars are being judged by Restoration Shop Owners.  The truth is that they don't "judge" the correctness of a vehicle, they overlook incorrect features to compensate for their inability to restore a vehicle back to Assembly Line condition!  What's right becomes wrong and vice versa.  It's reminiscent of the Hooterville Kangaroo Court where the Judge, Jury and Prosecutor are all a bunch of Friends and Relatives.  Conflict of interest!

This is exactly why I take all the pictures that I do when I am working on something that has been untouched.  Our el camino had 46,000 miles on it when we traded it for the GTX.  The elky had one exterior repaint, original factory vinyl top, and all original interior with the exceptions of the door panels which we ended up replacing.  Chuck Hanson, (President of American Chevelle Enthusiast Society and former host on Horse Power TV),  had inspected the car and did an article on it for ACES magazine and he was the one who confirmed that our interior and top on the el camino were in fact factory originals.

[R6red4spd69RT]

Hey...  wow, this thread has been a great read.

A lot of great posts, to include hobby/industry discussion. 

[ECS]

Hey...  wow, this thread has been a great read. A lot of great posts, to include hobby/industry discussion.  

This Hobby has issues far beyond the falsification of vehicles.  Those who should be doing everything possible to uphold the integrity of the Industry have sold out!  You have a self proclaimed "Leader" who has surrounded himself with Friends that restore cars.  He has established a judging program/documentation service where these Friends are the overseeing support group.  This "clique" has established the standards for these programs and then uses their own fraternal Members to enforce those standards.  Conflict of Interest!!!  In essence, there are no legitimate checks and balances to deter the type of scenario that has been illustrated in this thread.  

[resq302]

Hey...  wow, this thread has been a great read. A lot of great posts, to include hobby/industry discussion.  

This Hobby has issues far beyond the falsification of vehicles.  Those who should be doing everything possible to uphold the integrity of the Industry have sold out!  You have a self proclaimed "Leader" who has surrounded himself with Friends that restore cars.  He has established a judging program/documentation service where these Friends are the overseeing support group.  This "clique" has established the standards for these programs and then uses their own fraternal Members to enforce those standards.  Conflict of Interest!!!  In essence, there are no legitimate checks and balances to deter the type of scenario that has been illustrated in this thread.  

Certainly you don't mean that things are not always what they appear to be?

[ECS]

Certainly you don't mean that things are not always what they appear to be?

Look at the facts!  "Experts" setting up programs to "serve" the Hobby.  They enlist "professional" Restoration Shop Owners as "judges" to follow manipulated guidelines and standards.  The standards just happen to coincide with what those Restoration Shops are providing for the Industry.  These "standards" are enforced as being correct or you don't score well when you enter their Judging Program.  Everything is controlled by the same group of people in an effort to re-write history, gain new Customers and push their underlying agendas.  When you consider all the facts, you have an epiphany moment similar to the one Chris Knight had in the movie REAL GENIUS!  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HoT-h0S1gkE

[StoneCold]

"This is not good"   

[resq302]

The out come of this charger debacle reminds me of this.   

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlSQAZEp3PA

[XS29L9Bxxxxxx]

This "clique" has established the standards for these programs and then uses their own fraternal Members to enforce those standards.  Conflict of Interest!!!  In essence, there are no legitimate checks and balances to deter the type of scenario that has been illustrated in this thread.  

I respectfully disagree, as you cannot lump all parties in that classification   I know plenty of people with backbones and integrity who would not be afraid to call-out a bogus deal. Maybe this thread is the exception to the rule, and don't believe everything printed, ever.  

[68pplcharger]

Sounds like group of guys setting up a car(And some false history) for a big score down the road. 

Funny how the original poster said he didn't care about the cars history either way. Then when the truth came out he sold it right away and the new owner starts on the same rare car history path... He's got the falsified history documented now. This thread should be documented and provided to the new owner(After restoration) so he can sue the current owner restoring this car. I'm sure he would like to recoup the over-payment made to the current owner for this car.

[Rocco Barnard]

As I stated earlier, the process is only as strong as it's weakest link.

It appears ECS is being a bit deceptive about build sheets they reproduced and may not have been approved by Chrysler to do this. There also seems to be a lot of ingorance implied for what an original broadcast sheet does for documenting a real original car.

This is what ECS wrote on Moparts in April 2010 regarding reproduction build sheets..

http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=5930247&page=0&fpart=4&vc=1

(page 4)

""....To the dismay and ill feelings of others here, I already HAVE made them! I have more than six variations and styles that perfectly represent the different assembly plants. Seven years ago "GG" made a comment in MCG that he could spot ANY reproduction that was made. That sounded like a challenge to me so I spent the next two years (off an on) reproducing the most accurate Build sheets ever made. I knew that these HAD to be perfect so every little detail, printing mistake and nuance was accurately reproduced. It then took over a year to correctly reproduce the fonts with varying degrees of shading and print inconsistencies. The actual sheets were printed (out of state) on the correct Heidelberg printing machines that were originally used to do these. I didn't just print one type or style! I knew that there were different variations with regards to the perforation cuts and collated edges. I had six different variations done covering 1969 thru 1970. The cost was a little over $22K to do all of this. The final test was when I had an anonymous person approach GG with my work and he "verified" it with no questions whatsoever!....""

Chrysler likely realized the negative impact new build sheets could have on the hobby and wouldn't approve them without certain identifiable conditions to be present.  Without markings or hidden features to easily identify them as" non-original" (such as  type "ECS REISSUE") Chrysler nor anybody else could prevent these ultra accurate reproductions from being modified, copied, or claimed to be the lost copy of the original.

Should we believe this is a 22K investment for a novelty item? It doesn't change the fact that these ultra accurate reproduction built sheets have been already made.

[ECS]

It appears ECS is being a bit deceptive about build sheets they reproduced and may not have been approved by Chrysler to do this......Should we believe this is a 27K investment for a novelty item?

We were approved and we ultimately decided not to offer them.  It's as simple as that.  There is nothing about a broadcast Sheet that carries any Federal or legal implications.  The only think we had to obtain approval for was the use of the Pentastar on top of the piece of paper.  As far as what you believe regarding a "novelty item", think whatever you want!  The reality of my situation is certainly not affected in the least by your warped suspicions. 

[Rocco Barnard]

It appears ECS is being a bit deceptive about build sheets they reproduced and may not have been approved by Chrysler to do this......Should we believe this is a 27K investment for a novelty item?

We were approved and we ultimately decided not to offer them.  It's as simple as that.  There is nothing about a broadcast Sheet that carries any Federal or legal implications.  The only think we had to obtain approval for was the use of the Pentastar on top of the piece of paper.  As far as what you believe regarding a "novelty item", think whatever you want!  The reality of my situation is certainly not affected in the least by your warped suspicions. 

The reality of the situation is that you spent two years and 22k to make these accurate build sheets and nobody can tell the difference from original with your Heidelberg machine and special fonts and sheets of paper. That's the reality of the situation. 

[ECS]

The reality of the situation is......

The reality of this situation is that someone is attempting to falsify a Charger and an "expert" allegedly provided certification that supports the falsification of the vehicle.

[ECS]

nobody can tell the difference from original.....

I can tell the difference.   

[TUFCAT]

I can tell the difference.   

Then maybe you should become the "expert" for detecting fake broadcasts.

[tan top]

You refer to the hobby as the industry---When I use the term hobby I'm thinking of those that want to own and drive these cars.

Sorry to go off topic for a moment.  The focal point of this thread was discussing a VIN Tag and restoring a "unique" Charger back to its "rare" Factory condition.  That particular aspect has come under scrutiny.  I use the word "Industry" as a broad term to describe the Hobby.  I came into this Hobby as an Enthusiast.  The Business came after the fact.  My goal was to restore these "old cars" back to Assembly Line condition.  It's much more than just selling products to people in this Hobby/Industry.  I enjoy owning and rebuilding these cars on a personal level.  It's not just a Business opportunity for me.  Below is my Challenger that we refurbished from a basket case and finished in 2010.

don't want to get the thread too far off track with this  ,  you done a awesome job on the challenger , remember reading about it in a mopar mag ,  

[resq302]

It appears ECS is being a bit deceptive about build sheets they reproduced and may not have been approved by Chrysler to do this......Should we believe this is a 27K investment for a novelty item?

We were approved and we ultimately decided not to offer them.  It's as simple as that.  There is nothing about a broadcast Sheet that carries any Federal or legal implications.  The only think we had to obtain approval for was the use of the Pentastar on top of the piece of paper.  As far as what you believe regarding a "novelty item", think whatever you want!  The reality of my situation is certainly not affected in the least by your warped suspicions. 

The reality of the situation is that you spent two years and 22k to make these accurate build sheets and nobody can tell the difference from original with your Heidelberg machine and special fonts and sheets of paper. That's the reality of the situation. 

Rocco,

Sheesh.  If you are concerned about Dave spending 2 years and 22,000 in his money, I'd really hate to hear your opinion on the time and money he spent doing the resto on that COMMON, low dollar 4 door Valiant!   That had to be easily over $100,000 for the Valiant.  Yes, a VALIANT!!!  He has to be insane to spend that kind of time and money for a car like that.  Add to that all the time and money wasted for a 4 door Barracuda which is only a tribute to the concept car which you really can't put a value on.  Crikey!  The time alone in that so far must be worth close to $150,000!

I really have to wonder why you keep trying to redirect everything towards ECS.  It seems almost as if you are trying to make him be the blame for what is going on with the charger or what is wrong with the industry.  From what I have read, it seems that a lot of people are appreciative that Dave keeps records of what he does to prove something like this charger is NOT a real deal and that certain things are "faked" on a car.  I'm quite sure that there are others out there who are not as honest with the industry and would not stand up and say that something was fraudulent but sit back quietly and lay low.  I can almost guarantee that Dave has a detailed record of everything he has done, be it decals, broadcast sheets, etc.  with seeing the record keeping he has posted til now.  

[TUFCAT]

Without markings or hidden features to easily identify them as" non-original" (such as  type "ECS REISSUE") Chrysler nor anybody else could prevent these ultra accurate reproductions from being modified, copied, or claimed to be the lost copy of the original.

The spin that rocco has "redirected" as you said is more about putting some kind of tell tale sign its a copy, like the words "reissue" or a small ECS Logo on the broadcasts in a remote location to spot the reproduction from original.

I also have thoughts about the money too but its useless.... because it not MINE!   If it was, I'd be rich!  

[ECS]

Then maybe you should become the "expert" for detecting fake broadcasts.

I am currently involve with some other VERY important things like watching the paint dry on my Office walls.  Just as soon as I am finished with that, I'll get right on "detecting fake broadcasts". 

[hemigeno]

Without markings or hidden features to easily identify them as" non-original" (such as  type "ECS REISSUE") Chrysler nor anybody else could prevent these ultra accurate reproductions from being modified, copied, or claimed to be the lost copy of the original.

I think the redirect is more about putting some kind of tell tale sign its a copy, like the words "reissue" or a small ECS Logo on the broadcasts in a remote location to spot the reproduction from original.

Without getting into the merits of using a tell-tale sign as has been suggested, this is a moot discussion since ECS has clearly stated that Broadcast Sheets are no longer available and haven't been for some time.