Questions about my VIN tag.

[ECS]

provided an actual build date for the car,

how so?

The Sales Order number on the top right side of the Window Sticker has the SPD that is also stamped on the Fender Tag.  At the bottom right of the Sticker is the MSRP.  To the left of that number is the routing code.  To the left of those alpha-numeric codes are 4 numbers.  Those 4 digits represent when the Car was actually processed and the Window Sticker printed for the completed vehicle.  It might not be the exact day but it is us usually within a day or two of the "true" build date of the vehicle.  I have seen those digits differ from the SPD by as many as 60 days.  They definitely provide a more accurate build date than the Fender Tag SPD. 

[69CoronetRT]

It may be helpful to define which years you are describing.

[ECS]

It may be helpful to define which years you are describing.

1970-1971 are the years we specialize in.  Some of the earlier or later versions might vary.

[6bblgt]

provided an actual build date for the car,

how so?

The Sales Order number on the top right side of the Window Sticker has the SPD that is also stamped on the Fender Tag.  At the bottom right of the Sticker is the MSRP.  To the left of that number is the routing code.  To the left of those alpha-numeric codes are 4 numbers.  Those 4 digits represent when the Car was actually processed and the Window Sticker printed for the completed vehicle.  It might not be the exact day but it is us usually within a day or two of the "true" build date of the vehicle.  I have seen those digits differ from the SPD by as many as 60 days.  They definitely provide a more accurate build date than the Fender Tag SPD.  

IMO that date has more to do with a date when the vehicle was released/scheduled for shipping/transportation than anything to do with actual production (ADSNs often have the same date) - for example some "SOLD" Superbirds pre-date production where as "sales bank" cars do not have a shipping date available at time of production.  A date (& route) wasn't known until Chrysler Corp. found a dealer to ship it to.

It might not be the exact day but it is us usually within a day or two of the "true" build date of the vehicle.  I have seen those digits differ from the SPD by as many as 60 days.  They definitely provide a more accurate build date than the Fender Tag SPD.  

How is "a day or two" & "by as many as 60 days" more accurate than a SPD.  60 days is a Chrysler holding/marshaling  "lot lizard".

[ECS]

IMO....

It took over a year to obtain approval to manufacture those items.  During that time I spoke with quite a few Individuals who worked for Chrysler in that specific area.  They provided those details regarding the information printed on the Monroney Labels.  Dave Stuart who currently works for Chrysler explained and verified the same data.  It seemed to be a simple and straight forward explanation so I had no reason tho believe they were trying to be deceptive.  It may not coincide with the views the "experts" have surmised but they seemed to know what they were talking about. 

[ECS]

How is "a day or two" & "by as many as 60 days" more accurate than a SPD.  60 days is a Chrysler holding/marshaling  "lot lizard".

When a Car was ordered, it was assigned a SO number.  A Car that was ordered later than another vehicle might be built before the Car that had been ordered first.  Some in the Hobby try to make sense of things that were done in an unorthodox manner.  Here is the way a Chrysler Exec. explained it to me during one of his visits at our offices.  

He noticed a table where we had Purchase Orders lined up ready to be processed/pulled.  Our orders are laid out according to the time frame that they are called in.  (From the earliest day of the week to the next day and next day)  Some orders have many items and take longer to process than orders that have just a couple of items.  Even though an order might have been taken two days AFTER another order, the later order might go out sooner because it was easier to process.  An "early" order might require specialized services such as Glass etching, VIN Decals, etc..... A "later" order might require pulling a couple of stocked items from a bin.  The later order could end up being shipped before an order that was actually taken first!  If someone were to look at the day the orders came in verses when they went out, the time frames would NOT coincide with "first come first serve" the way people might expect.

[6bblgt]

FWIW, I'm sure you've had access to more people that worked for or had something to do with Chrysler than I could dream of, but ...... just because someone said so doesn't make it gospel & who are these "experts" you speak of?

Throw this out because it's a '74, by then a production date was printed on the door sticker - but I'd bet a few things didn't change .....
Door Sticker: 021516 = Friday February 15, 1974 during the 16th hour (4PM)
Fender Tag: 207 = Thursday February 7, 1974
Window Sticker: 201 G04 = Friday February 1, 1974 & G04 is "CASSENS TRANSPORT" St. Louis, MO to INDIANA

http://www.cassens.com/transport/

so, in your opinion when was this Road Runner built?

[ECS]

so, in your opinion when was this Road Runner built?

That's an easy one.  There is no absolute way of knowing!  All of those dates do not coincide and I can assure you that the date on a VIN Decal (even from 1974) DID NOT guarantee that the car was actually made at that specific time.  We did a VIN for a Car where the date did not match ANYTHING that was documented with the car.  The vehicle had been removed from the line and VIN Decal showed a date that was a month AFTER the Fender Tag SPD.  That was what I was trying to convey in my follow up post about orders that were processed out of order.  There are exceptions to every protocol.  This all started because I was trying to convey that a Window Sticker actually had MORE information than a Broadcast Sheet with regards to a broad range of information.  I'll gladly admit that I don't know every single detail and aspect as it relates to a vehicles pedigree.  If I'm wrong, I have no problem admitting so.

Just out of curiosity, is your name Dan Pausch?  Are you not involved with Dave Wise and his judging team?  Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't he one of the "experts" that looked at the Car in question in this thread and certified it as being "original"?    If I was certifying Cars and putting my stamp on approval on them, I guarantee I would be the "expert" for what I was commissioned and paid to do.  

[familymopar]

provided an actual build date for the car,

how so?

The Sales Order number on the top right side of the Window Sticker has the SPD that is also stamped on the Fender Tag.  At the bottom right of the Sticker is the MSRP.  To the left of that number is the routing code.  To the left of those alpha-numeric codes are 4 numbers.  Those 4 digits represent when the Car was actually processed and the Window Sticker printed for the completed vehicle.  It might not be the exact day but it is us usually within a day or two of the "true" build date of the vehicle.  I have seen those digits differ from the SPD by as many as 60 days.  They definitely provide a more accurate build date than the Fender Tag SPD. 

So ECS, I honestly know very little about Maroney stickers.  So the sticker is created by the manufacturer and contains both the vin and the SO number, so this could be used like a BS to connect a 68's body and drive train?

[6bblgt]

Yes, & what did Dave's report on the subject car state?  Is MCG's article accurate?

[ECS]

Yes, & what did Dave's report on the subject car state?  Is MCG's article accurate?

You would have to ask Dave.

[ECS]

So ECS, I honestly know very little about Maroney stickers.  So the sticker is created by the manufacturer and contains both the vin and the SO number, so this could be used like a BS to connect a 68's body and drive train?

We have never studied the 1968 versions.  We are licensed to do the 1969 thru 1971 Chrysler examples.  There were so many price changes throughout the years and plant differences that made it too difficult to provide the accuracy that we want to give to our Customers.  It came down to "guess" work for some of the Window Stickers so we chose to no longer offer a full service for those particular model years.  

Most Customers do not have information such as the selling Dealer, Zone Codes, Routing & Destination Codes, etc.....  If someone has an existing "ripped up" sample that they would like to have reproduced, we can make them from their original example.  This takes the guess work out of printing something that might be incorrect.

[6bblgt]

A '68 window sticker does not contain the Shipping Order #, but a large enough database of the specific car you are talking about could tell you if the S.O.# is appropriate.

[familymopar]

So ECS, I honestly know very little about Maroney stickers.  So the sticker is created by the manufacturer and contains both the vin and the SO number, so this could be used like a BS to connect a 68's body and drive train?

We have never studied the 1968 versions.  We are licensed to do the 1969 thru 1971 Chrysler examples.  There were so many price changes throughout the years and plant differences that made it too difficult to provide the accuracy that we want to give to our Customers.  It came down to "guess" work for some of the Window Stickers so we chose to no longer offer a full service for those particular model years. 

Most Customers do not have information such as the selling Dealer, Zone Codes, Routing & Destination Codes, etc.....  If someone has an existing "ripped up" sample that they would like to have reproduced, we can make them from their original example.  This takes the guess work out of printing something that might be incorrect.

A '68 window sticker does not contain the Shipping Order #, but a large enough database of the specific car you are talking about could tell you if the S.O.# is appropriate.

Thanks to both y'all.  I know that the 68's have different stamping methods than other years and one of the reasons an original BS is coveted is to tie, with more certainty, the body to the drivetrain.  I was just curious if an original window sticker could do the same thing once ECS mentioned the SO number.  Thanks for the info.

[PLATINUM6BBL]

Hello everyone, I just picked up a V code 1970 Charger and have a question maybe someone can answer. It needs total restoration, but one thing jumped out at me once the purchase was made. The car has a unpainted VIN plate? I have never seen one like it before. Does anyone know what makes this car different from the black plates I have seen? Thanks. Eric Jackson



Sorry for the mystery on the sequence number, but I have not titled it in my name yet and I get paranoid thinking someone else might beat me too it!

While watching GYC from earlier this week I noticed the finished Daytona's VIN tag was missing all of its' paint so I paused the tv and took this pic.

[TUFCAT]

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't he one of the "experts" that looked at the Car in question in this thread and certified it as being "original"?    If I was certifying Cars and putting my stamp on approval on them, I guarantee I would be the "expert" for what I was commissioned and paid to do.  

In the pages of MCG (in regards to the door vin decal) they said it was "original"... How could MCG be 100% sure?  

I'm guessing they took "the word" of the owner who said "for sure" and then they didn't review the inspection report. That could have been how they got screwed? ....Nobody knows if David Wise had a different opinion because they don't show the inpection report.

This is how things can get out of control.    

[bill440rt]

It certainly adds to the value of a vehicle......

I think Brian was talking about actual value versus intrinsic value.  A Broadcast Sheet allows a person to feel better about what they are purchasing.  By adding "credibility" to a Car, most people are comfortable paying a premium for it.  I have original Broadcast Sheets for my Cars.  If I threw them away, my Cars would still represent and be worth what they are.  It would certainly limit potential buyers who would not purchase a vehicle without that type of "documentation" however.  Having a Broadcast Sheet does add intrinsic value to the resale of a vehicle.

Speaking of documentation, no one has mentioned the Monroney Sticker in the mix of things.  A Monroney Sticker is truly a "document" that is Federally mandated and regulated.  Broadcast Sheets were used to assist with the assembly of the vehicle but NEVER had any legal qualities.  The Window Sticker conveyed MUCH more (vehicle) information than a Broadcast Sheet.  Unlike the Broadcast Sheet,  it provided the option codes that were found on the Fender Tag, listed the costs for the options, told who the selling Dealer was, provided an actual build date for the car, listed the Dealer code, the vehicle routing code, destination charge, etc........

Either monetary or intrinsic, value is value. What is written above just expands on my value comment.
It goes without saying the broadcast sheet WILL add intrinsic value. Monetary value will depend on the buyer and type of car.
The sheet "only" told the workers what to install on the car, but these days it's one of the items that validates a car (of course, if the sheet is real).
Personally, if there were two identical, high-dollar collector cars for sale in front of me to choose from I would feel much better purchasing the one with the broadcast sheet to back it up. But hell, I'm broke so I ain't buyin' nothin'. 

[ECS]

In the pages of MCG (in regards to the door vin decal) they said it was "original"... How could MCG be 100% sure?  I'm guessing they took "the word" of the owner.........This is how things can get out of control.

The way things get "out of control" is misquoting or switching identities of the people who allegedly provided the information.  Below is what MCG printed regarding the Fender Tag, VIN Decal and whose "word" they took.

"David Wise has looked at it himself and agrees, this is a factory legitimate fender tag and it absolutely belongs to the car-the fender tag is not a re-stamp, it's not altered, and it's not counterfeit.  That fender tag is 100% just the same today as it was in 1970 except that the paint's been stripped off of it to get rid of rust and corrosion problems.  The door VIN decal also bears the same serial number as the fender tag, and once more, it's passed the extreme examination test and everyone agrees it's the car's original decal."

[XS29L9Bxxxxxx]

The way things get "out of control" is misquoting or switching identities of the people who allegedly provided the information.  Below is what MCG printed regarding the Fender Tag, VIN Decal and whose "word" they took.

"David Wise has looked at it himself and agrees, this is a factory legitimate fender tag and it absolutely belongs to the car-the fender tag is not a re-stamp, it's not altered, and it's not counterfeit.  That fender tag is 100% just the same today as it was in 1970 except that the paint's been stripped off of it to get rid of rust and corrosion problems.  The door VIN decal also bears the same serial number as the fender tag, and once more, it's passed the extreme examination test and everyone agrees it's the car's original decal."

I think the issue of the door vin decal being proved to have been reproduced, casts a shadow of doubt over the rest, if I am reading all this right    Interesting stuff, nonetheless...

[Rocco Barnard]

So ECS, I honestly know very little about Maroney stickers.  So the sticker is created by the manufacturer and contains both the vin and the SO number, so this could be used like a BS to connect a 68's body and drive train?

We have never studied the 1968 versions.  We are licensed to do the 1969 thru 1971 Chrysler examples.  There were so many price changes throughout the years and plant differences that made it too difficult to provide the accuracy that we want to give to our Customers.  It came down to "guess" work for some of the Window Stickers so we chose to no longer offer a full service for those particular model years.  

Most Customers do not have information such as the selling Dealer, Zone Codes, Routing & Destination Codes, etc.....  If someone has an existing "ripped up" sample that they would like to have reproduced, we can make them from their original example.  This takes the guess work out of printing something that might be incorrect.

My personal feeling is the more sophisticated hobbyist would be more comfortable knowing a ripped up original sample was used to reproduce his build sheet. Today's record keeping technology certainly offers the solution to the problem.  Scan or photocopy the original and save it on the computer. Unscrupulous reproducers can't and won't be held to this stratum, however ECS could and should since they seem to be the only one keeping records.

This discussion is drawing toward ECS because they are sharing their expertise and knowledge about producing vin related items.  To be quite frank about the situation I fail to see why a legitimate business like ECS would ever condone or consider the reproduction of a factory document without first laying eyes on the original, therefore they should have nothing to hide regarding full disclosure.

[ECS]

To be quite frank about the situation I fail to see why a legitimate business like ECS would ever condone or consider the reproduction of a factory document without first laying eyes on the original, therefore they should have nothing to hide regarding full disclosure.

Just to be clear "rocco" or "dave" or whatever other alias you are posting under, we don't answer to you concerning the information we are required to disclose.  If you have a problem with what we do, contact Chrysler Corporate to voice your concerns regarding the documentation requirements that they have established for us.

[pettybird]

A copy of a legitimate title, a picture of a data tag, etc......can be used for documentation when we make these decals.  Those are the requirements that Chrysler has us comply with in order to manufacture these items. 

I sent in a picture of our car's title and a picture of the original door tag--the second only to help out with the layup of the new sticker.  They didn't just take my word and a few bucks to send me the decal.

Thanks!    When we manufacture our VIN products, we have no way of knowing when these labels are actually placed on a vehicle.  Some Customers accumulate parts and do not use them for months after receiving them.   

I looked at mine, sitting in the same priority mail envelope you sent it in four years ago, yesterday.  I should put it on considering I actually had a cop ask to see it during a stop for speeding.  Since I have one of the many Superbirds without a VIN stamp on the core support I REALLY ought to put it on 

[69CoronetRT]

I think the issue of the door vin decal being proved to have been reproduced, casts a shadow of doubt over the rest, if I am reading all this right    Interesting stuff, nonetheless...

For some of us, "The Rest" has been under a shadow since the original post.
All three pieces of 'documentation', the VIN, the fender tag and the door decal are easy to reproduce. Fake VIN and fender tags are known to exist. We already know the door decal is a repo. No other piece of documentation (window sticker, broadcast sheet, invoice, order sheet, etc) has been presented.

Yes, this would be a great find IF someone could prove beyond a shadow of a doubt this car is what it is portrayed to be. Until then, it's a Unicorn.

[Y1CHARGER]

Here is a video of Randy Koeppel with the car in question.  Video was posted on January 20, 2014.  He calls it his next big project.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10152131663768930&set=vb.58843378929&type=2&theater

He is facebook friends with Eric W. Jackson, who is obviously a corvette/car guy from his page.  On the day the video was posted, Jan. 20, 2014, Eric W. Jackson commented on the video "glad this rare mopar found the right home".

In reply #28 Eric states "Its the right tag for sure. Didn't know that about the A/C hmmm very interesting. Well I guess I found a rare one. How could someone order an option like that? is it like a Copo Camaro?  Eric"

Much of the video that Eric commented on concerns the rarity of this being a 440-6 car with A/C and cruise.  

Randy also shows and discusses the VIN sticker, same as the one in these threads and points to it being the original, not a reproduction.

Video is well worth a watch, they have the A/C compressor with bracket and show it in detail.  

Here is Eric Jackson, Randy Koeppel, George Barris, someone else and a corvette posted by Randy on January 17, 2014, where he "tags" Eric. 

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10201546264360046&set=a.1385240272617.2049389.1280326569&type=1&theater

I am making no judgment here about Eric, Randy, or anyone else.  Just offering this as additional info.

For what it's worth.

If you haven't seen the video yet, take a look, click on the top link in the above quote.  Has anyone seen the compressor shown in the video factory installed on a mopar?? 
I googled 1970 automotive A/C compressor and found ones that looked like the one in the video but they seem to be for a Ford or dealer installed units? here is the google link, you should see some that look like the one in the video. 
https://www.google.com/search?q=1970+automotive+A/C+compressor&client=firefox-a&hs=xUE&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=KDU_U5PbK5SysATLq4E4&ved=0CDMQsAQ&biw=1024&bih=639#imgdii=_
here is a link to one that I think looks like the one in the video
http://www.action-ac.com/PartLookup/FORD/LTD/1970
So, Anyone seen one factory installed on a 1970 Mopar? anyone? anyone?

[ECS]

I sent in a picture of our car's title and a picture of the original door tag--the second only to help out with the layup of the new sticker.  They didn't just take my word and a few bucks to send me the decal.

We have guidelines we follow to guard against impropriety.  On another forum, someone referred to their own kind as "used car salesmen".  I completely agree!  The problem starts when some of the self proclaimed "experts" use their limited knowledge to plug the gaps with nothing more than hypotheticals.  They feel they have an inherent right to fill in the blanks or re-write history because they have been collecting information for many years.  This has somehow earned them the right to interject their opinions as a form of legitimate proof. 

These cars were nothing more than revenue for Automotive Companies when they were originally built.  Over the years, they have become collectable and iconic treasures.  Some "experts" feel the need to make up grandiose stories that promote a mystic to support their skewed agenda.  They turn a simple scenario into an embellished story to keep things interesting.  That's how these unique "One of None" Cars end up surfacing throughout the years.  Also notice how some here have attempted to deflect attention and blame someone else in hopes that the real perpetrators can slip back into the shadows without being noticed.