Questions about my VIN tag.

[ECS]

Got it, thanks!   Not questioning your integrity AT ALL, just curious & wanted clarification. Saw the article in the national magazine as well.  

Thanks!    When we manufacture our VIN products, we have no way of knowing when these labels are actually placed on a vehicle.  Some Customers accumulate parts and do not use them for months after receiving them.  I've been called by people who "inherited" our products when they bought a project vehicle and wanted to know where the decals were suppose to go.  The article said the car has changed hands numerous times in the past few years.  I couldn't tell you who actually applied the VIN decal on this vehicle or altered its appearance.  

[charger Downunder]

So looks like we have an original V Code car with A/C and a  repro door sticker.

Fender tag.?
dash Vin.?

[polywideblock]

so did the paper work also indicate what authentication was used as proof for  you to make it  , title , copy of fender tag ,build sheet etc  ?

[StoneCold]

Was this the latest issue of MCG that the car was in ?

[ECS]

so what documentation was used to authenticate and approve this vin sticker  

It was not an original VIN decal that was used for verification.  I am not going to disclose what was used because it will do nothing but start hypothetical speculation about what people do to "fake" their documentation.  I will say however that the documentation requirements are different for vehicles that are manufactured prior to 1990.  We can use a fender tag rubbing or photo, a VIN plate rubbing or photo, a picture of the original decal, a copy of the Title or a Copy of the Broadcast Sheet.  The 1990 and later vehicles are under a completely different and more stringent verification process.

[bill440rt]

So... and just playing devil's advocate here... IF in this case all it took to get a door VIN decal was a pencil rubbing of the dash VIN tag, and IF the dash VIN tag was a factory mis-stamp, then there is a chance this car could have had a U-code door tag with a mis-stamped dash VIN?? 

Now, how about that fender tag, eh?? 

[TUFCAT]

It was not an original VIN decal that was used for verification.  I am not going to disclose what was used because it will do nothing but start hypothetical speculation about what people do to "fake" their documentation.  I will say however that the documentation requirements are different for vehicles that are manufactured prior to 1990.  We can use a fender tag rubbing or photo, a VIN plate rubbing or photo, a picture of the original decal, a copy of the Title or a Copy of the Broadcast Sheet.  The 1990 and later vehicles are under a completely different and more stringent verification process.

So... and just playing devil's advocate here... IF in this case all it took to get a door VIN decal was a pencil rubbing of the dash VIN tag, and IF the dash VIN tag was a factory mis-stamp, then there is a chance this car could have had a U-code door tag with a mis-stamped dash VIN??  

Now, how about that fender tag, eh??  

My problem in general (not specific to this car) has always been falsified documentation.    Without further proof, it appears like whomever owned this car may have been looking to take advantage of a miss-stamped VIN plate.    

With the Vin plate, title, fender tag, and door vin decal in hand, what would stop anyone from getting a new reproduction broadcast sheet manufactured for this car?  It could have even been "aged".  If that happened... (i.e. if a person actually wanted to pass the car off as a "documented" fake).... a car like this example could have "rock solid" documentation.  

In this example, a reproduction VIN door decal (proven here) has been passed off as "legitimate" documentation to some experts... even though the VIN number may have been "tweaked".. Nobody knows for sure since the current decal is not original to the car as once thought.

All I'm really saying is more proof is needed here....

[ECS]

In this example, a reproduction VIN door decal (proven here)......

That's odd?  How could what I said (this time) have been regarded as "proof" if I didn't provide photographic evidence to support my commentary?     

[69CoronetRT]

My problem in general (not specific to this car) has always been falsified documentation....  

And yet, look how eager people on this board are to encourage someone to get a new tag or to help someone make a new fender tag. Read the Unicorn thread to see what happens when people start to mess with fender tags. SOMEBODY somewhere gets burned by bad tags.



The problem with this car has never been the VIN per se as the VIN could be legit. That makes the dash VIN and the door decal less open to scrutiny.

The problem with this car has been the VIN with the options. The main source of the documentation and "Gee Wizz" factor has always been the easiest to falsify and make; the fender tag. There are far fewer requirements on a tag maker than there are on ECS.

IF the VIN is legit, then it is less likely the tag is legit.

IF the options on the tag are correct, then it is more likely the VIN, and supporting documentation, has been altered. It is far easier to imagine the original car was a U code car and:

1) mis labeled at the factory (plausible but unlikely. This still means the car was not an original 6bbl car with the options listed on the tag. It was a 4bbl car) or
2) Changed from a U to a V along the line with replaced VIN tag, fender tag and door decal. (Probably easier to do than one likes to admit. But the car was still a 4bbl car.)

What no one has been able to do is confirm this VIN goes with the options listed on the tag through other original documents like a window sticker, broadcast sheet or invoice or some other piece of original documentation that links the VIN with the options.

It would be a very cool find if and when anyone can prove the car actually is what it is portrayed to be.

[69CoronetRT]

In this example, a reproduction VIN door decal (proven here)......

That's odd?  How could what I said (this time) have been regarded as "proof" if I didn't provide photographic evidence to support my commentary?     

Bazinga!

[bill440rt]

It would be a very cool find if and when anyone can prove the car actually is what it is portrayed to be.

Absolutely! 

And even IF it were really a "lowly" 4-bbl car it would still be a kick ass Charger: Sublime, A/C, cruise, V21, horizontal stripes...     
I still don't understand why someone (IF this is the case, now speculation) would want to go ahead and alter paperwork/VIN's etc on an already cool car? 

[ws23rt]

It would be a very cool find if and when anyone can prove the car actually is what it is portrayed to be.

Absolutely! 

And even IF it were really a "lowly" 4-bbl car it would still be a kick ass Charger: Sublime, A/C, cruise, V21, horizontal stripes...     
I still don't understand why someone (IF this is the case, now speculation) would want to go ahead and alter paperwork/VIN's etc on an already cool car? 

Your question is of course rhetorical.  To deceive for monetary gain comes to mind   Or to bask in the glory of having a faked car and others don't know.  Now that's satisfaction

[bill440rt]

Your question is of course rhetorical.  To deceive for monetary gain comes to mind   Or to bask in the glory of having a faked car and others don't know.  Now that's satisfaction

Yes, it was strictly rhetorical. 

[68X426]

Somewhere in the last 300 posts the current owner Eric stated there was no motor and no driveline.  I remember him stating it had sat for 30 years.  He knew the owner on the last title which was 25 years ago.  I can't find the post but I'm sure I got the timing right.

ECS tells us that he made a VIN decal 6 years ago for David L.

Is David L. the owner of 25 years ago?  Is he the seller (to Eric) in 2013?

Seems to me we enthusiasts are being played with here -- no motor, no documentation, so how can anything be proved?

Or am I missing something? 

[TUFCAT]

Somewhere in the last 300 posts the current owner Eric stated there was no motor and no driveline.  I remember him stating it had sat for 30 years.  He knew the owner on the last title which was 25 years ago.  I can't find the post but I'm sure I got the timing right.

ECS tells us that he made a VIN decal 6 years ago for David L.

Is David L. the owner of 25 years ago?  Is he the seller (to Eric) in 2013?

Seems to me we enthusiasts are being played with here -- no motor, no documentation, so how can anything be proved?

Or am I missing something?  

Interesting.     This month's Mopar Collector's guide says the car is currently owned by Randy Koeppel in Arizona....not Eric?

MCG wrote on pg. 76: "its earliest known history began in 1989 when a collector found the R/T sitting in a field on a Nebraska farm". "For the next decade the R/T went through several owners, eventually ending up with a collector in North Carolina in 2003 where it remained for the next ten years". (David L.?)... "Finally in 2013, a friend of Randy's bought the car, (Eric ?) and carted it out to Arizona, that's when Randy acquired it in November of last year".

If MCG's story is accurate, the title was "floated" through many owners.  If Eric's statement is true, doing some quick math, the last time the cars title was transferred was by the "collector who found the car on a Nebraska farm in 1989".

Now for the confusion:  who is this Randy Koeppel guy MCG thinks owns the car?   .... Unless Eric sold it to Randy   I'm so confused.  

[ECS]

ECS tells us that he made a VIN decal 6 years ago.....

It will 8 years ago this coming December.  We made it on December 27, 2006.

[familymopar]

Here is a video of Randy Koeppel with the car in question.  Video was posted on January 20, 2014.  He calls it his next big project.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10152131663768930&set=vb.58843378929&type=2&theater

He is facebook friends with Eric W. Jackson, who is obviously a corvette/car guy from his page.  On the day the video was posted, Jan. 20, 2014, Eric W. Jackson commented on the video "glad this rare mopar found the right home".

In reply #28 Eric states "Its the right tag for sure. Didn't know that about the A/C hmmm very interesting. Well I guess I found a rare one. How could someone order an option like that? is it like a Copo Camaro?  Eric"

Much of the video that Eric commented on concerns the rarity of this being a 440-6 car with A/C and cruise.  

Randy also shows and discusses the VIN sticker, same as the one in these threads and points to it being the original, not a reproduction.

Video is well worth a watch, they have the A/C compressor with bracket and show it in detail.  

Here is Eric Jackson, Randy Koeppel, George Barris, someone else and a corvette posted by Randy on January 17, 2014, where he "tags" Eric. 

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10201546264360046&set=a.1385240272617.2049389.1280326569&type=1&theater

I am making no judgment here about Eric, Randy, or anyone else.  Just offering this as additional info.

For what it's worth.

[ECS]

Randy also shows and discusses the VIN sticker, same as the one in these threads and points to it being the original, not a reproduction.

At the time this decal was reproduced, I would make the artwork and then print the layout it on a 8.5" X 11" piece of white paper.  The artwork/paper was then placed on a special printing machine that can print and process metallic material.  The stock we use for these VIN decals is a metallic composition which is why it does NOT come off in the same manner as an originals made by Chrysler.  You can see the "chunked" piece of the decal that was removed in the video and photos.  

I spent over an hour sifting through hundreds of the typed artwork compositions that I have archived and found the "original" print that I made this decal from in 2006.  I will make another decal tomorrow (from that original artwork) and post it side by side with the one from the magazine article.  You guys compare the two and judge if they are the same!

[TUFCAT]

It looks like Op Eric sold the car since this thread started, and there's a new owner.  Good job digging Familymopar.  That explains the different name in MCG.  

[Dodge Don]

I just saw this and have not read the entire thread however the fender tag picture at start is missing the inspection punch out.

[HANDM]

And that explains why the OP hasn't posted again.......

[69CoronetRT]

I just saw this and have not read the entire thread however the fender tag picture at start is missing the inspection punch out.

...which is not uncommon on a 70 STL tag.

[familymopar]

Randy also shows and discusses the VIN sticker, same as the one in these threads and points to it being the original, not a reproduction.

At the time this decal was reproduced, I would make the artwork and then print the layout it on a 8.5" X 11" piece of white paper.  The artwork/paper was then placed on a special printing machine that can print and process metallic material.  The stock we use for these VIN decals is a metallic composition which is why it does NOT come off in the same manner as an originals made by Chrysler.  You can see the "chunked" piece of the decal that was removed in the video and photos.  

I spent over an hour sifting through hundreds of the typed artwork compositions that I have archived and found the "original" print that I made this decal from in 2006.  I will make another decal tomorrow (from that original artwork) and post it side by side with the one from the magazine article.  You guys compare the two and judge if they are the same!

Just to be clear, ECS, I was not questioning what you have claimed or your integrity (nor that of anyone else).  I have no reason not to believe you even though you are correct that we haven't seen any photos or such yet.  Nonetheless, I tend to think that VIN sticker is yours.  I was pointing it out that it seems to be some of the evidence being used to validate the car.  Evidence that we here now have, at a minimum, reason to question.

[Dodge Don]

I just saw this and have not read the entire thread however the fender tag picture at start is missing the inspection punch out.

...which is not uncommon on a 70 STL tag.

Actually I'd say the opposite. The 70 Registry has tons of fender tags from 70 Chargers....all have the punch out.

[familymopar]

In reply #28 Eric states "Its the right tag for sure. Didn't know that about the A/C hmmm very interesting. Well I guess I found a rare one. How could someone order an option like that? is it like a Copo Camaro?  Eric"

Much of the video that Eric commented on concerns the rarity of this being a 440-6 car with A/C and cruise. 

I retract this portion of my previous post.  I was careless in making an assumption here.  The implication was that Eric should have known of the rarity of the AC when he posted here that he did not.  Having looked back, the thread is older than I had thought.  Eric posted that before the video was posted, before his presumed sale to Randy.  I apologize for any confusion and to Eric, should he ever find himself on this site again.  I should have been more careful in my fact checking.  Sorry.