What's involved in swapping a 360 into a 318 car?

[MaximRecoil]

My mechanic friend has an early '70s Dodge camper in his junkyard with a 360 and ~30,000 miles. It runs beautifully.

My car is a '69 Charger with a '73 318 in it. It runs good, but not as good as that 360 (my engine seems to have high mileage and could probably use an overhaul at least), and since the 318 is stock, the stock 360 obviously has more power.

I briefly discussed with him the possibility of putting that engine in my car, and he said something about the 360 being externally balanced as opposed to my 318 which is internally balanced.

If I keep the 360's flexplate, can it be connected to my 904 transmission and my torque converter, or would I have to use the camper's torque converter and perhaps its 727 transmission as well? I'm thinking that if I use the 727 I'd have to shorten my driveshaft, which I'd rather not do. Also, the 727 is more parasitic than the 904, which means less power to the wheels if I use it.

[cudaken]

 Max, if your car is a automatic it does not have a flywheel, it has a flex plate. You will need the converter and the flex plate off the 360 trans. Balancing weight is on the converter. I am guessing the camper is a auto? Not sure if they are the same transmission.

Oil pan I have no clue if it will fit 69 Charger! I do know you can not interchange a 360 oil pan with a 318!

Other wise it should drop right in. But then again, I have never owned a SB Mopar.

Cuda Ken

[MaximRecoil]

Max, if your car is a automatic it does not have a flywheel, it has a flex plate.

Yeah I know. I asked about keeping the 360's flexplate.

You will need the converter and the flex plate off the 360 trans. Balancing weight is on the converter.

Okay, I think my mechanic friend mentioned something about the balancing weights being on the torque converter. I thought the balancing weights were on the harmonic balancer and flexplate.

Will the 360's torque converter (727 transmission) work with my 904 transmission?

I am guessing the camper is a auto? Not sure if they are the same transmission.

Yeah, it is an automatic; a 727. My car has a 904.

Oil pan I have no clue if it will fit 69 Charger! I do know you can not interchange a 360 oil pan with a 318!

I think my friend mentioned something about the oil pan too, now that you mention it.

[Cooter]

Really should upgrade to 727. Unless you wanna invest a ton of money in that 904.
IIRC, the converters interchange.

[MaximRecoil]

Really should upgrade to 727. Unless you wanna invest a ton of money in that 904.
IIRC, the converters interchange.

I know that the 727 is a tougher transmission than the 904, but I don't drive the car hard. I don't spin the tires or take it to the dragstrip, nor do I plan to. For as long as the 904 holds up, I'll get the benefit of better gas mileage / less power loss through the transmission and not have to shorten my driveshaft.

If the 904 fails behind the 360, that 727 will still be in the camper for the taking, or better yet (though more expensive) would be to rebuild the 904, upgrading its weak points in the process. Then I'd have the best of both worlds: efficiency and durability. That's why built 904s and GM Powerglides are so popular in drag racing. Of course it would cost four or five thousand dollars to build one like powerful drag cars use, but you can simply upgrade the weak points for far less money, and it should be good enough for a stock '72 360.

Of course, what I really wish it had is an A-833.

So if the 727 torque converters interchange with 904 torque converters, then there isn't any more to this swap than just dropping in the 360, flexplate, and torque converter, is that right?

[maxwellwedge]

You will also need to get a proper motor mount bracket for one of the sides - don't remember which one at the moment....maybe someone else can chime in.

[69finder]

You will also need to get a proper motor mount bracket for one of the sides - don't remember which one at the moment....maybe someone else can chime in.

Why?  He knows everything about everything.  Why should anyone else chime in?

[ACUDANUT]

LOL, I know little about this conversion (small blocks) But I would put the entire group (engine and trans) from the M/H into the Charger (if it will work).

[JB400]

You'll have to be careful about the trans from the motorhome.  Most are cable shifted instead of mechanical linkage. You can use the motorhome trans, but will have to use an aftermarket shifter that is cable operated.

[Cooter]

Sh*t if fuel mileage is what you want, I'd pony up the bucks for the 833....

[MaximRecoil]

Sh*t if fuel mileage is what you want, I'd pony up the bucks for the 833....

More power to the wheels too. If it was just the A-833 I needed, I would buy one.

You'll have to be careful about the trans from the motorhome.  Most are cable shifted instead of mechanical linkage. You can use the motorhome trans, but will have to use an aftermarket shifter that is cable operated.

This one has a factory column shifter, same as my car. I assume it uses linkage rods.

Why?  He knows everything about everything.  Why should anyone else chime in?

Again with your reading difficulties.

[ACUDANUT]

Sh*t if fuel mileage is what you want, I'd pony up the bucks for the 833....

If that's what he wants he is in the wrong hobby. lol

[MaximRecoil]

Sh*t if fuel mileage is what you want, I'd pony up the bucks for the 833....

If that's what he wants he is in the wrong hobby. lol

Say what? A more efficient transmission gives you more power to the wheels and better gas mileage. Who wouldn't want both of those things? Are you saying that people in this hobby are supposed to prefer less gas mileage and less power?

[jaak]

You will also need to get a proper motor mount bracket for one of the sides - don't remember which one at the moment....maybe someone else can chime in.

Driver's side.

Jason

[MaximRecoil]

According to this article:

The 904 uses a 10.75" converter. The 727 used either a 10.75" or an 11.75" converter, so the bell housing is larger at the bottom and deeper at both the top and the bottom.

So if the camper's torque converter is 11.75", I guess it wouldn't work with a 904. Is there any way to know what size torque converter the camper has without tearing it apart?

[A383Wing]

flex plates are the same between both engines.

Suggestion 1) weld the proper weight onto your trans converter..there are kits for this...(2) get an aftermarket flexplate that makes up for the weight .....it's not a "square plate" as normal ones...looks like more of a triangle

[Cooter]

That MH 360 might have a few more ft lbs than your 318, but for the trouble, I'd be looking into a bb swap...

[MaximRecoil]

That MH 360 might have a few more ft lbs than your 318, but for the trouble, I'd be looking into a bb swap...

Way too much money. Not only would I need the big block engine itself, but I'd also definitely need a 727, and my 8.25" wouldn't much care for big block torque, so I'd need to find an 8.75". Then I'd also need a K-member, all of the motor mounts, a different radiator, torsion bars, and some other bits and pieces probably.

The nice thing about the 360 is that it's low mileage, more or less "drop-in", and I don't know what Dave would sell it to me for, but I know it would be cheap.

[ACUDANUT]

You don't need a different K-Frame. All sb/bb/rb engines all use the same one.

[MaximRecoil]

You don't need a different K-Frame. All sb/bb/rb engines all use the same one.

Really? I thought the big block K-member was different. Well, that's good to know, but even then a big block swap is still way too much money.

[Cooter]

I gotta 1977 RUNNING 440 and rebuilt 727 for sale for $600.00.....

[ACUDANUT]

You don't need a different K-Frame. All sb/bb/rb engines all use the same one.

Really? I thought the big block K-member was different. Well, that's good to know, but even then a big block swap is still way too much money.

This is elementary. Any way a big block is still more bag for the buck. 

[odcics2]

If you want to save money AND get great fuel economy, keep what you have now.   

[MaximRecoil]

If you want to save money AND get great fuel economy, keep what you have now.    

I obviously don't want to keep what I have now. If I did, I wouldn't have made this thread. I want an engine with more power (but not so much more power that I get drastically worse gas mileage and need to change the transmission and rearend; I'm not a drag racer) and less wear and tear on it, and I don't want to spend 4 figures in the process. A 360 with 30K miles that runs smooth as silk, already sitting in my friend's junkyard, fits the bill quite well.

[Dino]

Geez guys, what's with the attitudes about fuel mileage on this site? 

Every time the same song, if you want fuel economy you got the wrong car.  So we shouldn't try to improve it then?  That may be okay for the Sunday drivers but for those of us that actually drive these cars it is wise to get as much mileage out of the car as possible.  Or any car for that matter.  I for one never enjoyed having to stop for gas every friggin' week, especially with the lousy fill tube design that turns everything into a fountain if you don't watch it.

I think a 360 with a 904 is a very nice option, and low cost at that.  Get a new ds motor mount and drop that puppy in.  I'm not sure how to check what converter is in there but if there's a distinct optical difference, you could remove the cover plate at the bottom of the bell housing and peek inside.

[Chargerguy74]

I have no issues with wanting to maximize fuel economy. That's why I bought a TDI. But I'm personally not concerned one bit about fuel economy in my Chargers and wouldn't care if anybody was. We all enjoy these cars in our own ways.

[ws23rt]

I have no issues with wanting to maximize fuel economy. That's why I bought a TDI. But I'm personally not concerned one bit about fuel economy in my Chargers and wouldn't care if anybody was. We all enjoy these cars in our own ways.

I agree. However if a charger was a daily driver economy would be an issue.  The way we drive has much to do with economy.
My challenger is a heavy car but gets 24mpg at cruising.  If I play with it the mpg goes down accordingly.  As well as the life span of the tires.

The auto trans does use hp and that is translated into heat. (trans cooler).  A 727 needs about 45HP  and a 904 needs about 20HP.
So that seems like enough of a difference to make a difference.  However when in third gear at speed the difference is almost gone.

[Fred]

I have no issues with wanting to maximize fuel economy. That's why I bought a TDI. But I'm personally not concerned one bit about fuel economy in my Chargers and wouldn't care if anybody was. We all enjoy these cars in our own ways.

Same here. I go cruising in mine at least 2 to 3 times a week and I don't care how much fuel she sucks up and spits out.
It's my hobby and I'm enjoying it.

[ws23rt]

I have no issues with wanting to maximize fuel economy. That's why I bought a TDI. But I'm personally not concerned one bit about fuel economy in my Chargers and wouldn't care if anybody was. We all enjoy these cars in our own ways.

Same here. I go cruising in mine at least 2 to 3 times a week and I don't care how much fuel she sucks up and spits out.
It's my hobby and I'm enjoying it.

I feel the same about my Hemi Coronet.  It gets about 8mpg around town I would like to drive it for free but
The pleasure I get from driving it would not stop me if the price of fuel went to $10 per gal.
It would however keep the miles on the car lower.  And that is good cause there are only 50K on the car as it is. It's value would diminish as the miles go up.

[Fred]

I have no issues with wanting to maximize fuel economy. That's why I bought a TDI. But I'm personally not concerned one bit about fuel economy in my Chargers and wouldn't care if anybody was. We all enjoy these cars in our own ways.

Same here. I go cruising in mine at least 2 to 3 times a week and I don't care how much fuel she sucks up and spits out.
It's my hobby and I'm enjoying it.

I feel the same about my Hemi Coronet.  It gets about 8mpg around town I would like to drive it for free but
The pleasure I get from driving it would not stop me if the price of fuel went to $10 per gal.

Ha! we're just about paying that now down under. But hell, I'm not complaining. As long as it's available, I'm happy.  

It would however keep the miles on the car lower.  And that is good cause there are only 50K on the car as it is. It's value would diminish as the miles go up.

I know where you're coming from Bruce but to be honest, not in a million years would I ever get back anywhere near what I put into it, that's just how it is. I'll look after it as best I can as I do with everything I own but a few stone chips or running the mileage up isn't going to stop me from having the best time I can with it. I've never been under the illusion that someone will come out of the wood works and give me top dollar for it. People are always looking for a bargain. And they'll probably get one when I'm done with it but n the meantime........life's good.

[ws23rt]

I have no issues with wanting to maximize fuel economy. That's why I bought a TDI. But I'm personally not concerned one bit about fuel economy in my Chargers and wouldn't care if anybody was. We all enjoy these cars in our own ways.

Same here. I go cruising in mine at least 2 to 3 times a week and I don't care how much fuel she sucks up and spits out.
It's my hobby and I'm enjoying it.

I feel the same about my Hemi Coronet.  It gets about 8mpg around town I would like to drive it for free but
The pleasure I get from driving it would not stop me if the price of fuel went to $10 per gal.

Ha! we're just about paying that now down under. But hell, I'm not complaining. As long as it's available, I'm happy.  

It would however keep the miles on the car lower.  And that is good cause there are only 50K on the car as it is. It's value would diminish as the miles go up.

I know where you're coming from Bruce but to be honest, not in a million years would I ever get back anywhere near what I put into it, that's just how it is. I'll look after it as best I can as I do with everything I own but a few stone chips or running the mileage up isn't going to stop me from having the best time I can with it. I've never been under the illusion that someone will come out of the wood works and give me top dollar for it. People are always looking for a bargain. And they'll probably get one when I'm done with it but n the meantime........life's good.

I actually have come to feel the same way about my car.  I bought it cause it is what I always wanted back in 1980.  As time passed it's uniqueness started to trump the reason I got it in the first place. It became a piece of history that brings lots of debate as to how to treat it.
If I did nothing but preserve it I would miss out on why I have it in the first place.

This may be a distinction between a hobbyist and a collector.

The car had 49'970 on the clock when I got it and the day I rolled it passed 50K a light went off in my head. This is stupid---thinking about the odometer.  (I could have not connected it).   I got it for me and will enjoy it for what it is.

This may be part of a hijack to this thread but a connection is that of economy and our cars. Which leads back to the beginning.

[Fred]

Hijacking (within reason) is very much a part of it and in many instances can't be helped. After all, one thing leads to another. It happens in conversation every day. We'd soon run out of things to talk about if we didn't digress.

There's a difference between hijacking and just plain stealing someone's thread.

[ws23rt]

Hijacking (within reason) is very much a part of it and in many instances can't be helped. After all, one thing leads to another. It happens in conversation every day. We'd soon run out of things to talk about if we didn't digress.

There's a difference between hijacking and just plain stealing someone's thread.

  I do tend to ramble on sometimes.  Especially when it comes to these cars.

[69finder]

If we don't go off on a tangent, we're doomed to go in circles... or something like that.

I think it's just fitting to take this thread off on it's on path considering who/what the OP usually does to other threads.   

[Fred]

Have you seen my hijack thread?    It's a place where anyone can hijack anything and not get wrapped on the knuckles for it.
And what's best about it, is that it's my thread so I can hijack it any time I like and not only that, I can also steal it and take it over completely should I feel inclined!

[69finder]

Fred; Well, I'm hijacking this thread by talking about hijacking!! HEY!   

[Fred]

Fred; Well, I'm hijacking this thread by talking about hijacking!! HEY!   

  I make no apologies.

[cowboy4x4n]

the 360 will bolt in with minor shims to the 318 motor mounts on the driver's side.  theres a thread on here somewhere where a guy just used washers.  the 904 is a good trans when built, drag racers put the 904 internals in a 727.  if your nice to the 904 and dont abuse it with the 360 it should last a while even with the 8.25 rear.  This rear was given a bad rep but ill last if you install a sure grip or drive the peg leg nice. as far as the torgue convertor, i believe since the 360 is externally balanced you knock the weight off the convertor.  im not for sure with this.

[jaak]

the 360 will bolt in with minor shims to the 318 motor mounts on the driver's side.  theres a thread on here somewhere where a guy just used washers.  the 904 is a good trans when built, drag racers put the 904 internals in a 727.  if your nice to the 904 and dont abuse it with the 360 it should last a while even with the 8.25 rear.  This rear was given a bad rep but ill last if you install a sure grip or drive the peg leg nice. as far as the torgue convertor, i believe since the 360 is externally balanced you knock the weight off the convertor.  im not for sure with this.

Thats true, you can do that...in fact I have before. I was waiting for someone else to mention it first before I posted this pic. You can actually use a 318 driver's side motor mount on a 340/360, if you shim this one 'ear'. But you can't use a 340/360 mount on a 318. But the correct bracket should be an easy find on eBay.

Jason