Anyone know what kind of performace can be had out of a 400 without stroking it?

[sixty-niner]

Hello all,  I have a 400 in my charger and have been debating with making it a stroker or not.  I have 2 questions
question 1 
I always hear of people stroking their 400 blocks but rarely do I ever hear of what kind of HP and power numbers can be had with just a 400.  I know that mopar muscle got 426 HP out of a 400 with iron heads and some KB pistons upping the compression to 10:1.  What kind of performance can be had out of a 400 anyway?  Does anyone have any experience with one?

question 2   how does one make a high revving 451 as opposed to a low revving 451? 

[Supercharged Riot]

Id say take a look at some threads in the proven performance section
Theres a couple of impressive 451 builds

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,78039.0.html

Heres my take, depending on your goals and budget of course.
Engine blocks can only be rebuilt so many times, so you might as well get the most out of it. For myself, i want reliablility and more han stock power. Im ditching all my cast internals in my 440

[green69rt]

There's always pros and cons.  I've read that the later 400 blocks are great for stroking.  Good block strength, extra webbing.   So if you want something in the 450 CI range  it works great.  Advantages are... it is lighter that the 440.  It is shorter so you can have more options on the intake.
So a stroked 400 or a stock 440, maybe the stroked 400 wins..

Cons are...a 440 is still bigger and you can stroke it to a bigger engine.  So if the ultimate size is what you're after, start with the 440. So a stroked 400 or a stroked 440 I would give the win to the 440... Anyone got an opinion???

[cdr]

i am building a 400 low deck stroked to 512.

[JB400]

Never been around just a regular 400, but I say anywhere around 450hp would be about the limit considering these engines had cast cranks.  By the time you invest in the rest of the engine with forged or hypeutic pistons, and maybe a set of decent heads to get to that mark, you might as well just buy a forged crank for it as well.  If going with that expense, you might as just well go with a 440 crank instead of a 383/400 crank.

[Ghoste]

Not a fan of cast cranks either BUT, I will say a lot of the brand X cars used cast cranks and they made some impressive power numbers and reliably too.  And some of them without the added benefit of Chrysler's deep skirt blocks.
The 400 gets a bad rap in stock form and one of the things everyone ppoints to is the cast crank but I think when it comes to crankshafts us Mopar folks are spoiled since most of our stuff came stock with a forged crank.
I think without stroking it you could get as much power as any 383 but I'm no expert for sure.  Strokers 450 estimate could be pretty accurate but thats not a bad number for a relatively stock engine from that era at all.

[Supercharged Riot]

You can gave my cast 440 crank for free. seriously...I dont want it.
Im getting a forged crank.

[Ghoste]

They have their place but I'll defer to the first 7 words in my last post.  We are spoiled though.

[sixty-niner]

thats just it, no one really builds a 400.  And I haven't heard of any 500 hp 400 blocks out there, either 440's or strokers.  I will stroke it I think.  I had a brand new one, then my psycho neighbor stole it, and he has too many dogs to go looking through his yard.   

[JB400]

If you want to be a little bit different, build up the 400 as such.  It'd make for another conversation area on your car.  Our recommendations for using a 440 crank was to make it easier to gain some hp and torque numbers.  It just really depends on how you intend to use the car.  If it's just a street cruiser, a regular 400 would be sufficient. If you intend to see the strip once in a while, then I'd go with the 440 crank. 

[sixty-niner]

I want the car to be a street and track car, I jumped into the hotchkis challenger at MATTS with Mary Possi behind the wheel and that was it!!  It was like a roller coaster and I have wanted to race the car ever since.  I have no interest in the drag strip for now but I will be tracking the car as much as possible and just cruising around in it.

[green69rt]

I want the car to be a street and track car, I jumped into the hotchkis challenger at MATTS with Mary Possi behind the wheel and that was it!!  It was like a roller coaster and I have wanted to race the car ever since.  I have no interest in the drag strip for now but I will be tracking the car as much as possible and just cruising around in it.

From what I've read on this site and in the hot rod mags, I would guess that the 400 is a better fit for your needs.  The 400 is lighter than the 440 so that will make for better weight distribution on you car (it will still be a heavy, old car but will be better than other similar cars on the track.)  I would bet you could get 500 HP out of it fairly easy, but I can't guess on how streetable such an engine would be, stroked or not.

Charlie, whats your build look like, any estimates of HP/TQ?

[ACUDANUT]

A stock 4 barrel 383 will be beat a stock 400 any day.  Trying to put a 440 Crank into a 400 is not going to as cheap as a stock 400 build.

[Cooter]

thats just it, no one really builds a 400.  And I haven't heard of any 500 hp 400 blocks out there, either 440's or strokers.  I will stroke it I think.  I had a brand new one, then my psycho neighbor stole it, and he has too many dogs to go looking through his yard.   

Everything that is NOT done is usually done for a reason.
There's 406 ci SMALL block chevies right out the factory.
Also, the lowvdeck bb chrysler engine has less stroke than a damn small block chevy 350...


Junk in stock 400 form...too much piston and no stroke.

[mhinders]

You can get good performance in a non-stroked 400 engine...get the compression up, make sure you have good flowing heads and intake. The big pistons are good for big valves.

[XH29N0G]

If you want to be a little bit different, build up the 400 as such.  It'd make for another conversation area on your car.  Our recommendations for using a 440 crank was to make it easier to gain some hp and torque numbers.  It just really depends on how you intend to use the car.  If it's just a street cruiser, a regular 400 would be sufficient. If you intend to see the strip once in a while, then I'd go with the 440 crank. 

It may be better to think in terms of torque.  The longer stroke of the 440 crank will make a difference there and give you power lower in the RPM range.

[JB400]

If you want to be a little bit different, build up the 400 as such.  It'd make for another conversation area on your car.  Our recommendations for using a 440 crank was to make it easier to gain some hp and torque numbers.  It just really depends on how you intend to use the car.  If it's just a street cruiser, a regular 400 would be sufficient. If you intend to see the strip once in a while, then I'd go with the 440 crank. 

It may be better to think in terms of torque.  The longer stroke of the 440 crank will make a difference there and give you power lower in the RPM range.

Good point. 

[ws23rt]

Torque is what gets you up to speed.  Horsepower is what holds the speed

[fy469rtse]

Mitch go with the 440 stroked, done both , if weight is the issue, not a great deal of difference , the big saving in weight is the following aftermarket bit's, alloy water pump and housing heads intake manifold , after market stroker kits , pistons and rods lighter, all adds up to a lot less weight over the nose,
If doing the 400 , use the steel crank out of a 383 , if not going the stroker option ,
No need to even consider using the stock cast 400's crank.
Can't under the thinking here , a motor is a pump , the more air you can move the more efficient right, so bigger bore's to the 400 , done this engine before both stock and stroker, most people under rate this motor because of the experience with it in stock low compression configuration ,
Imagine if you could bore out a 383 to this engines stock bore, bigger bore than a 440 , even with a stock steel crank but with lighter after market rods and a decent lighter piston , basically a 383 with a bigger bore, if its what you have to start with I say go for it ,

[Cooter]

Bottom line is TORQUE is king on the street. HP is like the hemi....it gets all the attention, but in reallity, torque is what you use the most...

[cudaken]

A stock 4 barrel 383 will be beat a stock 400 any day. 

  Yea that was what I thought in 1973.  Friend bought a new 73 Roar Runner with a 400. On paper my 68 Road Runner should have cleaned his clock. Well, it was a tie and I was stunned. Dave did have his 73 super tuned by the dealership so I guess that was it? 

Far as the cask crank, my old DC Manual states the crank is good for 500 HP. Yes the forged one is better but the cast one is not junk. Main thing I don't I don't like the looks of the cast balancer.  Just funny about some things.

Horse Power comes from heads, get good flowing heads (worked 906's are good but after market is better) get the compression up to 10.0 to 1 and have the Block Deck Blue Printed and you will have a fun 400 in your car!

Cuda Ken

[cdr]

for a 400 cid to make a REAL 500 hp it will make its peak hp at about 6400 rpm.
a 470 cid with the same head flow would make right at the same hp at 5400 rpm

[Scaregrabber]

The 400 4 barrels ran good for what they were, I'd take a 400 4 bbl over a 71 low compression 383 anyday. I'd build one without thinking twice, I would use custom pistons on it is all, if you want compression in a 383 you need custom pistons as well so that's a wash.

Sheldon

[cudaken]

The 400 4 barrels ran good for what they were, I'd take a 400 4 bbl over a 71 low compression 383 anyday. I'd build one without thinking twice, I would use custom pistons on it is all, if you want compression in a 383 you need custom pistons as well so that's a wash.

Sheldon

Sheldon, the stock pistons will make the advertized compression if the block height is correct. Maw Mopar was real sloppy when it came to BB deck height! I would guess that 85% of there motors where + .10 to .30 in deck height! A 68 383 with the correct deck height will make 10:00 to 1 compression if the block has a zero deck height.

While compression is important it was Neil (Chryco Psycho) that really opened my eyes about deck height! It is not the lost of compression from 10 to 1 to 9 to 1, about 10 to 15 HP. It is taking .10 to .30 off cam lift, duration and head to intake alignment! 

Cuda Ken

[c00nhunterjoe]

I love seeing the claims that you need a long stroke to make torque. Do some research and reading. There have been lots of dyno pulls made on same cubic inch engine with differnt bore/stroke combos and the end result was the same. The bottom line is a 440 makes more torque then a 383 because it has 57 more cubes....then same reason a 500 has more torque then a 440.
  I like big bore, short stroke, long rod. Keeps the piston up top longer, good quench, faster reving, longer street life.

[sixty-niner]

well whats the difference between short stroke and long stroke?  Someone said that he is building a 451 with the stock 400 rods which are shorter than the 440's and therefore it will have more low end torque but will not rev as high as if he would have used 440 rods.  this correct? 
wouldnt I want a higher revving motor if I was doing autocross?

[XH29N0G]

I love seeing the claims that you need a long stroke to make torque. Do some research and reading. There have been lots of dyno pulls made on same cubic inch engine with differnt bore/stroke combos and the end result was the same. The bottom line is a 440 makes more torque then a 383 because it has 57 more cubes....then same reason a 500 has more torque then a 440.
 I like big bore, short stroke, long rod. Keeps the piston up top longer, good quench, faster reving, longer street life.

I don't know the enough about the physics of the process to evaluate whether stroke plays an important role in torque, but I think you make a good point, that cubes also play a role in torque.  It seems to me that the lever arm of a crankshaft with a larger stroke should transfer the energy of combustion more efficiently to torque, but I don't know if that is actually what happens.

well whats the difference between short stroke and long stroke?  Someone said that he is building a 451 with the stock 400 rods which are shorter than the 440's and therefore it will have more low end torque but will not rev as high as if he would have used 440 rods.  this correct?  
wouldnt I want a higher revving motor if I was doing autocross?

As far as the rod length and stroke are related, my understanding is that a longer stroke engine in the same block will need a shorter rod/piston combination to reach the top of the deck.   The rod length depends on the total length of the rod/piston combination; so the height of the piston is also a factor in rod length.  Shorter pistons save weight, but if the piston gets too short the rings can overlap the pins and/or the pistons might rock back and forth in the cylinder; so there is a tradeoff.  

If you have a higher deck height (like the RB vs B block) then a longer rod could be used with the same stroke.  The bore of the 400 is slightly larger than the 440, but the 400 has a shorter cylinder (can use a shorter rod/piston combination to reach the top of the cylinder for the same stroke) which means less rotating weight.  

My understanding of the issue of stroke vs revving is related in some way to the velocity that the rods/pistons reach for each engine revolution.  At the same RPM, the piston/rod in a longer stroke engine will be moving faster than in a shorter stroke engine.  If it is also heavier, then there are several reasons it may be more prone to failure at a given RPM.

Torque at the flywheel and torque at the wheels is another issue.  The Torque at the wheels can be changed with gearing, but there can also be practical limits to that.

I'll leave it to others to correct/clarify what I have written, but this is how I understand it.  

[Cooter]

we have this same debate with the import guys vs domestic guys. The import guys seem to take the side of higher horsepower and the domestic guys tend to take this side of higher horsepower with reliability. A bigger engine of course will make more torque, however given the choice there's nothing wrong with building a 400, but when there is a raised block 440 out there common sense says build the bigger engine. Yes, given enough money, a 400 will do just fine...

[Ghoste]

There are also some ratios involved and the bore stroke ratio on a 440 comes in at a number that many engineers and race engine builders consider to be nearly perfect.

[green69rt]

I read an article in a rodding magazine a long while back.  It talked about the relative merits of stroking various blocks.   End result was the 440 was the best to stroke followed by the 400.  They talked about small rod angles and thus low cylinder wear.   Just one more piece of info.  I think that goes along with what Ghoste said.

[fy469rtse]

with the 400 , lighter slightly longer rods with the wrist pin higher up in the piston high compression, keeps that angle ratio to rods change to a minimum, will help it rev quicker, rule of thumb with so much after market goody's why would you use the heavy factory rods and pistons,   alloy heads, and so on , stroker
crank or not , good engine, although you get problems with engine bay clearance with headers because nearly all are made to the 440 block , slightly higher, wider, stock steering linkages get in the way

[ACUDANUT]

"wider, stock steering linkages get in the way"

This is only a small block problem. Not a B or RB issue.