Doing a little dyno testing on a low compression 440.

[heyoldguy]

Yep, put a 1972 440 on the dyno today to test out a few ideas, you know, like headers, camshafts, intakes, carburetors and heads. The first pull had it set up like this, '72 440 with .040" overbore for 448 ci, cast crank, cast pistons .160" down in the bore for 7.45:1 compression ratio, 906 heads, 1972 cast iron intake manifold, 1967 600 cfm Carter 4bbl, Summit Racing SUM-6400 camshaft 214/224 @ .050 .444"/466" lift 112 LS 106 ICL, 1964 stock cast iron exhaust manifolds. Results,

RPM...............TQ................HP

2500.............414...............197
2600.............402...............199
2700.............403...............207
2800.............402...............215
2900.............399...............220
3000.............403...............230
3100.............397...............235
3200.............399...............243
3300.............399...............251
3400.............391...............253
3500.............385...............257
3600.............380...............261
3700.............371...............262
3800.............365...............264
3900.............358...............266
4000.............350...............266
4100.............348...............271
4200.............336...............268
4300.............332...............272
4400.............323...............271
4500.............313...............268
4600.............304...............266
4700.............295...............264
4800.............283...............259
4900.............267...............249
5000.............260...............248
5100.............249...............241
5200.............231...............229
5300.............225...............227
5400.............214...............220
5500.............204...............214

The second pull today was with the HP exhaust manifolds, nothing much to report other than they lost 1 lb-ft of torque and gained 4 horsepower. Don't waste your money unless you are doing a restoration.

So, if you want to hang on, we'll take you through some bolt-on's we did today that took us to 463 lb-ft and 440 HP while NEVER taking the compression ratio beyond 7.8:1. We went to headers, bigger carb, aluminum intake, camshaft, even bigger carb and then ported 516 factory iron heads. 

[Brutalowner]

This is gonna be great info! Be curious what a RV 440 makes with a repo Magnum cam, current Eddy dual plane, 800cfm Eddy carb thru 452's and 1-7/8" headers....

[heyoldguy]

Guess I should state that we wanted at least 1hp/ci. So we did a little tuning just to finish off the day and got to 473 lb-ft and 449 HP. It was still making 431 HP at 5800 rpm where we shut it off.

[moparguy01]

I'm very interested in this as my 78 new yorker has a low compression 400 that needs some help. I'm sure it would respond similarly.

[myk]

Curious to see how my '78 440 would do on that dyno...

[heyoldguy]

Let's put the dyno headers on and see if there is any improvement, shall we?

RPM................TQ.................HP

2500..............427................203
2600..............422................209
2700..............416................214
2800..............419................223
2900..............419................231
3000..............419................239
3100..............417................246
3200..............417................254
3300..............414................260
3400..............406................263
3500..............400................266
3600..............393................269
3700..............386................272
3800..............376................272
3900..............376................279
4000..............368................280
4100..............365................285
4200..............357................285
4300..............348................285
4400..............342................287
4500..............328................281
4600..............318................278
4700..............311................278
4800..............298................272  +22 HP
4900..............278................259
5000..............271................257
5100..............263................255
5200..............247................244
5300..............234................237
5400..............224................230
5500..............213................223

At least the horsepower went up across the entire RPM range. It gained 11 HP peak to peak with a maximum gain of 22 HP at any one rpm.

[Cooter]

I'm a bit confused...you state you "NEVER" touched the 7.8:1 compression, but bolting on 516 closed chamber heads doesn't bump compression?
Still, fairly good nunbers for cast crank, low comp engine.

[heyoldguy]

I'm a bit confused...you state you "NEVER" touched the 7.8:1 compression, but bolting on 516 closed chamber heads doesn't bump compression?
Still, fairly good nunbers for cast crank, low comp engine.

With the combustion chamber work on the 516 heads they only bump the compression to, well, maybe I mis-spoke a little, I just rechecked and we are at 7.85:1 compression. With the 906 heads we started at 7.45:1 compression. I believe I said, "never taking the compression ratio BEYOND 7.8:1"

[tan top]

: intresting stuff   , thanks for sharing the info 

[Scaregrabber]

Great info, keep it coming.

Sheldon

[Musicman]

 

[Brass]

This is great!  There are a lot of low comp motors out there. 

[heyoldguy]

So then, for pull #4 all we did was change to an 750 cfm Edelbrock Performer carburetor. Pull #5 was a swap to an Mopar M1 single plane intake keeping the 750 Edelbrock.

RPM...........#4 TQ/HP...................#5 TQ/HP

2500............432/206......................416/198
3000............424/242......................415/237
3500............406/270......................418/279
4000............376/286......................395/301
4300............363/297......................381/312
4500............338/290......................363/311
5000............274/261......................298/283
5200.............................................265/263
5500............207/217

For pull #6 we change the cam and break 350 HP. Remember, we'll still be at 7.45:1 compression.

[heyoldguy]

Lets get the last three pulls out of the way.

#1 cam swap to the MP 509.

#2 add an 850 cfm Mighty Demon and a 2" Super Sucker carb spacer, used the spacer because the fuel lines hit the coil tower bosses on the manifold.

#3 swap the stock 906 heads for some ported 516 heads that flow 250 cfm at .500" lift. These heads flow approximately 20 cfm more than the 906 heads through out the entire lift range and will raise the compression ratio to 7.85:1.  oof, better get out the race gas!

....................509...............850 carb & spacer.......ported 516 heads

Lift...............TQ/HP...................TQ/HP.....................TQ/HP

2500...........360/171.................359/171
2600...........371/183.................373.184
2700...........384/197.................382/196
2800...........396/211.................392/209
2900...........407/225.................412/227
3000...........409/234.................431/246..................434/248
3100...........415/245.................441/262..................445/263
3200...........425/259.................442/269..................457/278
3300...........436/274.................450/283..................458/288
3400...........432/280.................449/290..................462/299
3500...........432/288.................441/294..................458/305
3600...........430/295.................436/299..................447/307
3700...........428/302.................435/306..................443/312
3800...........425/307.................430/311..................443/321
3900...........421/312.................434/322..................446/331
4000...........419/319.................438/333..................450/343
4100...........419/327.................445/347..................453/354
4200...........419/335.................444/355..................461/368
4300...........416/341.................443/362..................463/379
4400...........412/345.................434/363..................461/386
4500...........403/346.................432/370..................470/402
4600...........399/349.................429/376..................473/414
4700...........400/358.................427/382..................468/418
4800...........389/356.................419/383..................467/427
4900...........388/362.................415/387..................459/428
5000...........377/359.................405/386..................459/437
5100...........366/355.................391/379..................453/439
5200...........359/355.................383/379..................453/448
5300...........345/348.................374/377..................445/449
5400.......................................361/373..................428/440
5500....................................................................421/441
5600....................................................................407/434
5700....................................................................397/431
5800....................................................................391/431

Well there you are, vs the very first pull we could only gain 177 HP peak to peak, and just a 227 HP increase @ 5500 rpm. Junk
                                                                                                                                                                          junk
Still UNDER 8:1 compression. Ka-ching, did I just hear the price of low mileage motorhome engines just go up?                              junk
                                                                                                                                                                                      junk                       

[HPP]

Great info. I can't count how many times we see someone wanting to know what they can do with their low mileage, doesn't need a rebuild, '78 440.

[heyoldguy]

Yep, and that was just one afternoon changing parts in a big hurry. We'll be trying other things.

[firefighter3931]

Those are some descent results and what i would expect from a 250cfm cylinder head and that combination of parts. I don't see it being very street friendly though with that 509 cam and sub 8:1 static compression. The M1 with a 2in spacer won't clear a stock hood so it would be hood scoop time. 

That combo would need deep gears and a loose converter to be somewhat streetable. 

Good info and thanks for posting Jim 



Ron

[heyoldguy]

Now I want to put it into my 72 Satellite with the stock converter and the 2.76 gears and see how it works.

[Cooter]

So the prices of cast crank junk will stay the same if the cost duplicate what you've done here is like FI Vs carbs...
All depends on how much it takes to get a low comp motor to perform like a high comp motor that Chrysler already took the hit on...
Would be very interested in a cost per hp gained on a build like this. Or a total for the build...
Afterall, those FAST guys look like stock cars and run rediculous times, but enough money and anything can be forced to perform...

[firefighter3931]

Now I want to put it into my 72 Satellite with the stock converter and the 2.76 gears and see how it works.

I'd like to see that too 

My guess is that tuning this with a stock converter would be real fun...in gear the converter would pull the engine down bigtime. You'd have to crank up the idle speed and the idle circuit would become a non player. 

This one would start and run with the distributor locked out....no problem  I'd be willing to bet that it made peak power at well over 40* of timing   

Be interesting to see how it performs at the track....


Ron

[Budnicks]

  Thanks Jim all great informative posts, keep them coming... 

Let's put the dyno headers on and see if there is any improvement, shall we?

RPM................TQ.................HP

2500..............427................203
2600..............422................209
2700..............416................214
2800..............419................223
2900..............419................231
3000..............419................239
3100..............417................246
3200..............417................254
3300..............414................260
3400..............406................263
3500..............400................266
3600..............393................269
3700..............386................272
3800..............376................272
3900..............376................279
4000..............368................280
4100..............365................285
4200..............357................285
4300..............348................285
4400..............342................287
4500..............328................281
4600..............318................278
4700..............311................278
4800..............298................272  +22 HP
4900..............278................259
5000..............271................257
5100..............263................255
5200..............247................244
5300..............234................237
5400..............224................230
5500..............213................223

At least the horsepower went up across the entire RPM range. It gained 11 HP peak to peak with a maximum gain of 22 HP at any one rpm.

So then, for pull #4 all we did was change to an 750 cfm Edelbrock Performer carburetor. Pull #5 was a swap to an Mopar M1 single plane intake keeping the 750 Edelbrock.

RPM...........#4 TQ/HP...................#5 TQ/HP

2500............432/206......................416/198
3000............424/242......................415/237
3500............406/270......................418/279
4000............376/286......................395/301
4300............363/297......................381/312
4500............338/290......................363/311
5000............274/261......................298/283
5200.............................................265/263
5500............207/217

For pull #6 we change the cam and break 350 HP. Remember, we'll still be at 7.45:1 compression.

Lets get the last three pulls out of the way.

#1 cam swap to the MP 509.

#2 add an 850 cfm Mighty Demon and a 2" Super Sucker carb spacer, used the spacer because the fuel lines hit the coil tower bosses on the manifold.

#3 swap the stock 906 heads for some ported 516 heads that flow 250 cfm at .500" lift. These heads flow approximately 20 cfm more than the 906 heads through out the entire lift range and will raise the compression ratio to 7.85:1.  oof, better get out the race gas!

....................509...............850 carb & spacer.......ported 516 heads

Lift...............TQ/HP...................TQ/HP.....................TQ/HP

2500...........360/171.................359/171
2600...........371/183.................373.184
2700...........384/197.................382/196
2800...........396/211.................392/209
2900...........407/225.................412/227
3000...........409/234.................431/246..................434/248
3100...........415/245.................441/262..................445/263
3200...........425/259.................442/269..................457/278
3300...........436/274.................450/283..................458/288
3400...........432/280.................449/290..................462/299
3500...........432/288.................441/294..................458/305
3600...........430/295.................436/299..................447/307
3700...........428/302.................435/306..................443/312
3800...........425/307.................430/311..................443/321
3900...........421/312.................434/322..................446/331
4000...........419/319.................438/333..................450/343
4100...........419/327.................445/347..................453/354
4200...........419/335.................444/355..................461/368
4300...........416/341.................443/362..................463/379
4400...........412/345.................434/363..................461/386
4500...........403/346.................432/370..................470/402
4600...........399/349.................429/376..................473/414
4700...........400/358.................427/382..................468/418
4800...........389/356.................419/383..................467/427
4900...........388/362.................415/387..................459/428
5000...........377/359.................405/386..................459/437
5100...........366/355.................391/379..................453/439
5200...........359/355.................383/379..................453/448
5300...........345/348.................374/377..................445/449
5400.......................................361/373..................428/440
5500....................................................................421/441
5600....................................................................407/434
5700....................................................................397/431
5800....................................................................391/431

Well there you are, vs the very first pull we could only gain 177 HP peak to peak, and just a 227 HP increase @ 5500 rpm. Junk
                                                                                                                                                                         junk
Still UNDER 8:1 compression. Ka-ching, did I just hear the price of low mileage motorhome engines just go up?                              junk
                                                                                                                                                                                     junk                        

Now I want to put it into my 72 Satellite with the stock converter and the 2.76 gears and see how it works.

[heyoldguy]

So the prices of cast crank junk will stay the same if the cost duplicate what you've done here is like FI Vs carbs...
All depends on how much it takes to get a low comp motor to perform like a high comp motor that Chrysler already took the hit on...
Would be very interested in a cost per hp gained on a build like this. Or a total for the build...
Afterall, those FAST guys look like stock cars and run rediculous times, but enough money and anything can be forced to perform...

Cost? Lots of people wondering the same thing. I figure anybody with a computer can spend 20 minutes on the Summit Racing website and figure the whole thing out. If that's too much work............well.......

[XH29N0G]

Thanks for posting this.  I appreciate reading the discussion and results of your testing, and also liked the suspense.   

[Homerr]

Wow, cool info!   

[BigBlockSam]

 

[Cooter]

So the prices of cast crank junk will stay the same if the cost duplicate what you've done here is like FI Vs carbs...
All depends on how much it takes to get a low comp motor to perform like a high comp motor that Chrysler already took the hit on...
Would be very interested in a cost per hp gained on a build like this. Or a total for the build...
Afterall, those FAST guys look like stock cars and run rediculous times, but enough money and anything can be forced to perform...

Cost? Lots of people wondering the same thing. I figure anybody with a computer can spend 20 minutes on the Summit Racing website and figure the whole thing out. If that's too much work............well.......

Evidently,  this coming from the same guy that got a set of 906 heads to flow what aluminum ones do.....I just know your gonna GIVE all those porting secrets away cheap. This is what I refer to here, but if its to much work to post your high dollar engine secrets, no problem...I made over 700 hp once with a 1977 440...I have no problem telling how much it cost either. $600 for big shot Nitrous kit and another $300 or so in fuel components. I don't deal in trickery, I cut straight to the point Money...but if that's to hard to understand.......well......

[heyoldguy]

It would be best to take a pair of Stealth of heads and do a valve job rather than port 516 iron heads for this project. More power gain there. Then you don't have to factor in porting iron into the cost.

[HPP]

Okay, I'll take a stab at it.

Test 1; low mileage, running, smog era 440, $500, $100 for summit cam, $100 for a swap meet 650 carb, $700 for 272 hp

Test 2, swap meet headers $80, $780 for 287hp, or $80 for 15 peak hp gain

Test 3, swap meet 750 carb $100, $780 for 297 hp, or no difference from test 2.

Test 4, M1 single plane, $260 new, I rarely ever see these at swaps, $1040 for 312 hp, or $340 for 40 hp gain.

Test 5, add .509 cam, $210 new, $1250 for 362 hp, we are at $550 for 90 hp gain.

Test 6,  850 Demon and spacer, $700 new, but you might be able to score these at a swap meet for $500, $1750 for 387 hp, or  $1050 for 115 hp gain.

Test 7, ported heads, lets say $1500 for a set if you pay for porting, $3250 for 449 hp, or $2250 for 177 hp gain.
Alternatively, if you have access to the heads already and do your own porting, $1750 for 449 hp, or $1050 for 177 hp gain.

So the heads are a big variable. One way is on par with the nitrous shot, one way is twice that. Both ways do not require regular bottle refills.

I also suspect the choice of components testing was due to what's on hand, which means some guys could duplicate this for maybe a few hundred bucks with their junk on hand.

[heyoldguy]

Everyone's expenses would be different on an engine build like this. As far as cylinder heads go these were nothing exotic. As I stated earlier, they only flow 250 cfm @ .500" and 250 cfm doesn't take much work on a 452, 346, 906 or 915 head. I'm not a guy who desires to build engines like this, but there is nothing wrong with it if that is what your budget is. Even the stock 906 head made 387 HP at 7.45:1 compression.

This whole build was just to have some fun on our public dyno day. I just thought I would share what we found out in case it could be helpful to someone on a strict budget. Many different cams, intakes, headers and carburetors can be substituted with similar results.

[HPP]

Agreed. I think we all can think of a post sometime in the past where someone asked these exact same questions about their later model big block and this is a graphic example if what those proposed changes would result in. I think we all agree it is not the ideal engine building method, but I also think there are a number of guys out there who do things this way, so this validates what those changes produce.  IMO, just shy of 400 hp for under $2000 is not too shabby of a budget build.

[maxwellwedge]

Everyone's expenses would be different on an engine build like this. As far as cylinder heads go these were nothing exotic. As I stated earlier, they only flow 250 cfm @ .500" and 250 cfm doesn't take much work on a 452, 346, 906 or 915 head. I'm not a guy who desires to build engines like this, but there is nothing wrong with it if that is what your budget is. Even the stock 906 head made 387 HP at 7.45:1 compression.

This whole build was just to have some fun on our public dyno day. I just thought I would share what we found out in case it could be helpful to someone on a strict budget. Many different cams, intakes, headers and carburetors can be substituted with similar results.

Thanks very much for doing this exercise and taking the time to type it out and share with us all here. It is very much appreciated. 

[cdr]

 

[firefighter3931]

Good info and again thanks for posting  

This series of dyno runs shows just how important cylinder head flow is and how it impacts power production.  

A 70hp gain from a simple head swap is significant and highlights how poor the unported factory head performs. 


Ron

[Budnicks]

Everyone's expenses would be different on an engine build like this. As far as cylinder heads go these were nothing exotic. As I stated earlier, they only flow 250 cfm @ .500" and 250 cfm doesn't take much work on a 452, 346, 906 or 915 head. I'm not a guy who desires to build engines like this, but there is nothing wrong with it if that is what your budget is. Even the stock 906 head made 387 HP at 7.45:1 compression.

This whole build was just to have some fun on our public dyno day. I just thought I would share what we found out in case it could be helpful to someone on a strict budget. Many different cams, intakes, headers and carburetors can be substituted with similar results.

Thanks for the time & effort sharing all the information with all of us here... 

[Budnicks]

Good info and again thanks for posting  

This series of dyno runs shows just how important cylinder head flow is and how it impacts power production.  

A 70hp gain from a simple head swap is significant and highlights how poor the unported factory head performs. 


Ron

exactly...

[femtnmax]

Thank you very much for running the tests and posting the results. 

[Troy]

Good stuff!

If you ever get bored... I've always wondered what a factory stock engine would actually put out if it were just blueprinted. It seems that the tolerances were so far off on some (most) of these engines that you never really knew what you were getting - especially in regards to compression and head flow. I've known guys all my life who mix-n-match factory parts to get the best performance but I don't recall them really spending time at the machine shop getting everything fine-tuned. Racers probably do but I don't know many of them. A couple of the 440s I've picked up have had closed chamber heads added (and probably cams) but I've never measured them to see if the builder was paying attention.

Troy

[Homerr]

Would love to see what an Edelbrock or EZ EFI bolt-on kit does.

I know....$$$.

[RallyeMike]

I missed this earlier and glad I found it.  My first cheapo road race engine was a 78 stock bore +piston motorhome 440 along the lines of build #6. I never dyno'ed it, so this was interesting to read.

On top of the message that the lowly motorhome 440's are a bargain, even iron heads are coming up cheap these days with all the aluminum options out there. Some porting templates and some inexpensive grinding tools and you can be off to the races for pennies.

Thanks for all the work Oldguy !

[heyoldguy]

Now I want to put it into my 72 Satellite with the stock converter and the 2.76 gears and see how it works.

We're gonna do it, puttin' it into the Satellite tomorrow.

[cdr]

Now I want to put it into my 72 Satellite with the stock converter and the 2.76 gears and see how it works.

We're gonna do it, puttin' it into the Satellite tomorrow.

[TwistedShifter]

Great article. General question, what was the timing set at during the dyno runs? I know that the cast pistons and lower compression would be a factor, but just for learning. I'd be guessing 33-35 degrees total timing?

[heyoldguy]

The last pull at 449 HP was with 40 degrees total.

[HPP]

Would love to see what an Edelbrock or EZ EFI bolt-on kit does.

I know....$$$.

Might improve the BSFC numbers, but I doubt it would make more power.

[Budnicks]

The last pull at 449 HP was with 40 degrees total.

Is the 72 Satty drivable yet ??, was that your dyno on that pull or was that pull on a wheel driven dyno ?? 40* of timing, that's interesting, it seems to like timing allot...

[heyoldguy]

Yep it's up and running. Just got it fired on Thursday, left for Wyoming and haven't had any time to work out the jetting on the carb. Runs nice around on the street with a slight hesitation just on throttle tip in.

Runs really nice considering it has what I believe are 2.46 gears in the rear end. No tag on the rear end so we jacked one tire off the ground, put the tranny in neutral, spun the tire one revolution and counted the number of turns the drive shaft spun.......1-1/4 revolutions. This would inticate about a 2.50 ratio and I believe some 8-1/4 rears in 1972 have 2.46:1 ratios.

Horsepower was measured at the flywheel.

[Budnicks]

Yep it's up and running. Just got it fired on Thursday, left for Wyoming and haven't had any time to work out the jetting on the carb. Runs nice around on the street with a slight hesitation just on throttle tip in.

Runs really nice considering it has what I believe are 2.46 gears in the rear end. No tag on the rear end so we jacked one tire off the ground, put the tranny in neutral, spun the tire one revolution and counted the number of turns the drive shaft spun.......1-1/4 revolutions. This would inticate about a 2.50 ratio and I believe some 8-1/4 rears in 1972 have 2.46:1 ratios.

Horsepower was measured at the flywheel.

Thanks Jim

[shortbox]

Now I want to put it into my 72 Satellite with the stock converter and the 2.76 gears and see how it works.

I'd like to see that too 

My guess is that tuning this with a stock converter would be real fun...in gear the converter would pull the engine down bigtime. You'd have to crank up the idle speed and the idle circuit would become a non player. 

This one would start and run with the distributor locked out....no problem  I'd be willing to bet that it made peak power at well over 40* of timing   

Be interesting to see how it performs at the track....


Ron.           So what would you suggest for a torque convertor,I am considering a build like this because the bottom end is still good.

[RallyeMike]

I believe some 8-1/4 rears in 1972 have 2.46:1 ratios.

Yes. It's actually 2.45:1.

[djcarguy]

 

[500Jon]

Hey old Guy....

Wonderful work there fella!!!
I've built a lot of 440's, don't think I've seen any .160 down the bore pistons though?
Mostly around the .120 giving 8.2 comp with late heads?
Fantastic figures with the mods you made!
452's will easily beat those donkey 516's...

Question please...what's the best compression for an iron headed 440???
We always say 9.5 to 1 is as good as it gets...for pump gas...

Got a 1964 Fraud 427 here that has a cast crank, didn't seem to worry those guys lol!!!

[heyoldguy]

There is no best compression, just the best for the combination you build. I have run iron heads with 7.5:1 to 11.9:1 compression on 91 octane.

[500Jon]

Valid point there Old Guy...
I've run 12.5 with iron heads and pump-gas too.
My point was, best compression for street motor.
Some Folks I know have really struggled with anything over 10 to 1.(static)
I always think that's down to the cam being too small and too much DCR?
The older cams from MP are not up to snuff anymore....
Lunatti are doing well for street 440's with dual patterns.
Milder intake lobes and bigger exhaust, giving good vacuum for Brake Boosters.

At least a budget build 440 doesn't need expensive machine-work...