69 hemi charger R/T four speed

[Ghoste]

 

[JB400]

I don't understand the enormous extra value people place on a set of factory options. I would understand it if it was the only way to obtain those options, but any Charger can be made into a Hemi 4-speed car if that's what you want, and assuming the conversion is done with competence, there is no practical difference. This is especially the case when the project car is just a carcass; doesn't even have those desireable options that it came with from the factory anymore. What you end up with once it's restored is not an "original" Hemi car in any meaningful sense of the word; it is a car that has some parts from an original Hemi car, none of which include the Hemi itself. 

Some people would like the uniqueness of having a special car, like a Hemi car.  For some, sure, your example suits them.  They have an actual hemi, even if they can't have the letter in the vin.  Others on the other hand, just have to have that one letter in the vin, even if the original engine is gone.  It may not be an original Hemi car, but it originally was, and that, makes the car itself unique.

[ws23rt]

I don't understand the enormous extra value people place on a set of factory options. I would understand it if it was the only way to obtain those options, but any Charger can be made into a Hemi 4-speed car if that's what you want, and assuming the conversion is done with competence, there is no practical difference. This is especially the case when the project car is just a carcass; doesn't even have those desireable options that it came with from the factory anymore. What you end up with once it's restored is not an "original" Hemi car in any meaningful sense of the word; it is a car that has some parts from an original Hemi car, none of which include the Hemi itself. 

Some people would like the uniqueness of having a special car, like a Hemi car.  For some, sure, your example suits them.  They have an actual hemi, even if they can't have the letter in the vin.  Others on the other hand, just have to have that one letter in the vin, even if the original engine is gone.  It may not be an original Hemi car, but it originally was, and that, makes the car itself unique.

I see this all the time. Folks will be drawn to the vin tag on the dash and chatter about it amongst themselves.  Like yes it is a real hemi car or no it's only a 440 car

[MaximRecoil]

It may not be an original Hemi car, but it originally was, and that, makes the car itself unique.

Is there anything in that carcass that is unique to a Hemi Charger, aside from the numbers?

You say that it being originally a Hemi car makes it unique (I assume you mean rare rather than unique), but it is a stretch to call what's left of that car, a car, and it will especially be a stretch to say it was originally a Hemi car when stuff like quarter panels, trunk floor, interior floor pans, doors, subframe rails, and so on get replaced, along with all the completely missing parts that need to be replaced.

When, after a restoration, only a few hundred pounds of the entire car is original (and with none of those pounds coming from anything that is even unique to a Hemi car), it is very strange indeed that that translates to an enormously higher value than a typical clone.

[ws23rt]

It may not be an original Hemi car, but it originally was, and that, makes the car itself unique.

Is there anything in that carcass that is unique to a Hemi Charger, aside from the numbers?

You say that it being originally a Hemi car makes it unique (I assume you mean rare rather than unique), but it is a stretch to call what's left of that car, a car, and it will especially be a stretch to say it was originally a Hemi car when stuff like quarter panels, trunk floor, interior floor pans, doors, subframe rails, and so on get replaced, along with all the completely missing parts that need to be replaced.

When, after a restoration, only a few hundred pounds of the entire car is from an original Hemi car, it is very strange indeed that that translates to an enormously higher value than a typical clone.

It is strange indeed but many collectors will go for it with money.

[JB400]

                                                               LIMITED EDITION POST



Outside of maybe torque boxes, and some bolt on pieces, no.  There isn't anything on that hemi car that you couldn't get on a 440 car.  Otherwise, yes, it's all just the numbers and letters.

I used the word "unique" simply put because "rare" and "unique" go hand in hand.  

[charger_fan_4ever]

It may not be an original Hemi car, but it originally was, and that, makes the car itself unique.

Is there anything in that carcass that is unique to a Hemi Charger, aside from the numbers?

You say that it being originally a Hemi car makes it unique (I assume you mean rare rather than unique), but it is a stretch to call what's left of that car, a car, and it will especially be a stretch to say it was originally a Hemi car when stuff like quarter panels, trunk floor, interior floor pans, doors, subframe rails, and so on get replaced, along with all the completely missing parts that need to be replaced.

When, after a restoration, only a few hundred pounds of the entire car is original (and with none of those pounds coming from anything that is even unique to a Hemi car), it is very strange indeed that that translates to an enormously higher value than a typical clone.

I think its a safe bet to say a vast majority of 68-70 chargers that are still around today have had atleast a trunk floor and lower 1/4's replaced. If we are talking about cars with 100% oem metal i doubt there are many out there. To say a car thats had metal replaced isn't desirable/valuable is false. All we have to do is look at a few cars that sold and you can see they still bring more $$$ than a clone anyday of the week. Thats just how the cookie crumbles. Look at that hemi cuda that sold for millions and the thing started out as a cowl section with vin/fender tag. Not that i'm saying it was worth more than a clone as IMO it was just that.

[Troy]

Simple: if you don't think it's worth that much then don't buy it. When I'm spending my money I don't much care if anyone else approves. Some people really care about pedigree/rarity. Others don't. The ones who don't will likely never understand. Pointless to try to explain. There were few factory built Hemi Chargers, fewer with a 4-speed, and much fewer exist today. If you care about having one of them then you'll pay what it takes to own one. No one would spend the kind of cash it takes to own a "real" Hemi Charger if all they wanted was a Charger with a Hemi. Big difference!

As Gene alluded to, the person who can afford the best will likely only buy the best. That leaves some room for people who want to be in the club but can't quite compete for the few #1 cars out there. A car that's missing it's original engine that has had a lot of work done to it may sell for much less than half the price of an original metal, original drive train example.

I think people are weird for collecting most things (baseball cards, Beanie Babies, Precious Moments figurines, coins, stamps, guns, movie/TV memorabilia, etc.) but it's really none of my business what they spend their time and money on (or how much of it!). I also don't understand how people blow so much money on entertainment (sporting events, concerts, etc.). Most of those people likely think that anyone who owns a classic car is an idiot. None of those varying people are likely to agree with another about the "value" of something they are interested in. I can't tell you how many people I run into that assume that, since a car is "old", it isn't worth much (and treat them accordingly!).

Troy

[F8-4life]

I thought this was a charger forum...I can't believe there is this much debate on a 1969  Hemi 4sp.
This car is the king of cool, doesn't get any better. I thought alteast charger guys could appreciate this.
I dream of owning such a car someday, does this make me a fool for a letter "J"? Of course not.
It's not about a vin tag or any numbers, it's just seeems that way because the numbers tell the truth of what it was.
Also debating rust on a 45 year old chrysler is pointless, are you guys afraid of rust or what??
Who cares what is rusted, I thought we had a thing called the aftermarket. Try restoring this in 1985...and searching boneyards for clean panels HA!
Also any shadetree dude can stuff a 426 into anything but that doesn't give it signifacnt history/heritage/ & meaning.

[myk]

Some of us don't care about history/heritage and meaning when it comes to a car.  However, like Troy says, it isn't for others to decide how we spend our money, and people should be free to do so without fear of public opinion.  It's unfortunate that a snobbery exists between the different levels of Charger owners, but then again, it's only human nature to pick a side and deride everyone else...

[F8-4life]

Some of us don't care about history/heritage and meaning when it comes to a car.  However, like Troy says, it isn't for others to decide how we spend our money, and people should be free to do so without fear of public opinion.  It's unfortunate that a snobbery exists between the different levels of Charger owners, but then again, it's only human nature to pick a side and deride everyone else...

All very true, I guess I'm a little weird cause I'm fascinated with this era in history & the automotive evolution throughout the years.
So much went on back then it seems almost fantasy in comparison to today's world.
I find it all very interesting.

[myk]

Some of us don't care about history/heritage and meaning when it comes to a car.  However, like Troy says, it isn't for others to decide how we spend our money, and people should be free to do so without fear of public opinion.  It's unfortunate that a snobbery exists between the different levels of Charger owners, but then again, it's only human nature to pick a side and deride everyone else...

All very true, I guess I'm a little weird cause I'm fascinated with this era in history & the automotive evolution throughout the years.
So much went on back then it seems almost fantasy in comparison to today's world.
I find it all very interesting.

One could argue that they were simpler, better times for anyone that was around in that era, whether we're talking about cars or anything else...

[F8-4life]

Some of us don't care about history/heritage and meaning when it comes to a car.  However, like Troy says, it isn't for others to decide how we spend our money, and people should be free to do so without fear of public opinion.  It's unfortunate that a snobbery exists between the different levels of Charger owners, but then again, it's only human nature to pick a side and deride everyone else...

All very true, I guess I'm a little weird cause I'm fascinated with this era in history & the automotive evolution throughout the years.
So much went on back then it seems almost fantasy in comparison to today's world.
I find it all very interesting.

One could argue that they were simpler, better times for anyone that was around in that era, whether we're talking about cars or anything else...

I'd say your spot on, it was a special time for sure.

[ws23rt]

Some of us don't care about history/heritage and meaning when it comes to a car.  However, like Troy says, it isn't for others to decide how we spend our money, and people should be free to do so without fear of public opinion.  It's unfortunate that a snobbery exists between the different levels of Charger owners, but then again, it's only human nature to pick a side and deride everyone else...

All very true, I guess I'm a little weird cause I'm fascinated with this era in history & the automotive evolution throughout the years.
So much went on back then it seems almost fantasy in comparison to today's world.
I find it all very interesting.

One could argue that they were simpler, better times for anyone that was around in that era, whether we're talking about cars or anything else...

I'd say your spot on, it was a special time for sure.

I too agree   I also remember thinking in the 70s how much simpler and more fun the times were in the 50s  (These thoughts are about growing up with cars and the fun we had with them)

[Cooter]

Face it, the ONLY reason this car isn't getting the same "what a dumbass'  comments is one freaking letter that causes the owner of such to feel a little 'above' all other Charger owners be it because if the value or the Hemi. The fact that some here are willing to take one in the ass for rusty pos fascinates me. Yet, will scoff at an R/T that is more solid and cheaper to boot.

Afterall, once a 'period correct' engine is stuffed in it, imo, its nothing but a real car with a cloned engine.
I'd have more fun looking at someone's turd they fixed up with a small block than looking at someone's overpriced 'hemi' car that is considered by the average Charger guy to be ' better' for whatever reason...but to each his/her own...

[MaximRecoil]

I used the word "unique" simply put because "rare" and "unique" go hand in hand.  

Something that is unique is rare by default. Something that is rare isn't necessarily unique.

I think its a safe bet to say a vast majority of 68-70 chargers that are still around today have had atleast a trunk floor and lower 1/4's replaced. If we are talking about cars with 100% oem metal i doubt there are many out there. To say a car thats had metal replaced isn't desirable/valuable is false. All we have to do is look at a few cars that sold and you can see they still bring more $$$ than a clone anyday of the week. Thats just how the cookie crumbles. Look at that hemi cuda that sold for millions and the thing started out as a cowl section with vin/fender tag. Not that i'm saying it was worth more than a clone as IMO it was just that.

Of course it's false. I never said otherwise. Nothing I typed has anything to do with whether or not something is valuable to some people; it has to do with why.

Simple: if you don't think it's worth that much then don't buy it.

Yes, that is indeed a simple answer to the question of: "I don't think it's worth that much. Should I buy it?" However, as far as I know, no one on this thread asked that question; I know that I certainly didn't.

When I'm spending my money I don't much care if anyone else approves. Some people really care about pedigree/rarity. Others don't. The ones who don't will likely never understand. Pointless to try to explain.

That's the thing. What "pedigree" does that Hemi Charger carcass actually have, or, what "pedigree" will it have once it is restored? Most of what's left of its original sheet metal will be replaced, and it doesn't even have the part of its "pedigree" that makes it so valuable in the first place, i.e., its 426 Hemi engine. It seems that some people think of a car as though it has a "spirit" or "soul" that remains forever attached to those couple of ounces of metal that contain numbers and letters stamped into them. You could replace everything on a car except for those numbers and there are plenty of people who would still consider it an original Hemi car, and pay drastically more for it because of that.

There were few factory built Hemi Chargers, fewer with a 4-speed, and much fewer exist today. If you care about having one of them then you'll pay what it takes to own one. No one would spend the kind of cash it takes to own a "real" Hemi Charger if all they wanted was a Charger with a Hemi. Big difference!

Why is a Hemi Charger that has a replacement engine, has been mostly rebodied, and has had most of its parts replaced, a more "real" Hemi Charger than any "Charger with a Hemi"?

As Gene alluded to, the person who can afford the best will likely only buy the best. That leaves some room for people who want to be in the club but can't quite compete for the few #1 cars out there. A car that's missing it's original engine that has had a lot of work done to it may sell for much less than half the price of an original metal, original drive train example.

I don't know about selling for much less than half the price. "Much less than half the price" is what a well-done clone would sell for, and a well-done one that has Hemi numbers but hardly anything original would sell for a lot more than an equally well-done clone, even though could be ~99% a clone itself.

I think people are weird for collecting most things (baseball cards, Beanie Babies, Precious Moments figurines, coins, stamps, guns, movie/TV memorabilia, etc.) but it's really none of my business what they spend their time and money on (or how much of it!). I also don't understand how people blow so much money on entertainment (sporting events, concerts, etc.). Most of those people likely think that anyone who owns a classic car is an idiot. None of those varying people are likely to agree with another about the "value" of something they are interested in. I can't tell you how many people I run into that assume that, since a car is "old", it isn't worth much (and treat them accordingly!).

"Guns" don't fit in with your list, given that they have a practical use. The same goes for cars, or any type of machinery, tool, etc. And I find that most people either love classic cars or are indifferent to them, but pretty much everyone knows they're valuable. In fact, people tend to overestimate the value of old things in general. The idea that anything old is automatically valuable is extremely common. How many times have you heard someone say: "I bet that thing's worth some money!" even though whatever they are referring to clearly isn't? For example, the person on "Antiques Roadshow" who finds out his old item is a lot more valuable than they thought is quite rare compared to the number of people who find out it is worth a lot less than they thought. And I bet if we could see an unedited version of the show, there would be hundreds of people showing up with worthless junk expecting it to be worth big bucks, for every one person who actually has something valuable.

[ws23rt]

I for one have learned years ago what it is that makes something worth more to some people than others.

Could it be that they like it and can buy it?

Is this not what moves the market place?

So there is an old tale of a hammer that was the most important and lasting icon from and old mans life.
He had great grandchildren that were told about the hammer and what it meant to him.
It was a tool that he got from his father.

The hammer had the handle replaced twelve times and the head replaced three times.

The hammer was still the most special piece from the old mans life that the kids could hold and feel.---Is it the real hammer?---

[MaximRecoil]

So there is an old tale of a hammer that was the most important and lasting icon from and old mans life.
He had great grandchildren that were told about the hammer and what it meant to him.
It was a tool that he got from his father.

The hammer had the handle replaced twelve times and the head replaced three times.

The hammer was still the most special piece from the old mans life that the kids could hold and feel.---Is it the real hammer?---

It is obviously not the original hammer, but in the context of the tale, the originality of the hammer is irrelevant, at least from the perspective of the great grandchildren, because they haven't altered the hammer, so it is still a hammer that their great grandfather had, and that's what's important to them.

If the great grandfather replaced both the head and the handle after he got it from his father, then it is no longer a hammer that his father ever owned, not even partially.

[ws23rt]

So there is an old tale of a hammer that was the most important and lasting icon from and old mans life.
He had great grandchildren that were told about the hammer and what it meant to him.
It was a tool that he got from his father.

The hammer had the handle replaced twelve times and the head replaced three times.

The hammer was still the most special piece from the old mans life that the kids could hold and feel.---Is it the real hammer?---

It is obviously not the original hammer, but in the context of the tale, the originality of the hammer is irrelevant, at least from the perspective of the great grandchildren, because they haven't altered the hammer, so it is still a hammer that their great grandfather had, and that's what's important to them.

If the great grandfather replaced both the head and the handle after he got it from his father, then it is no longer a hammer that his father ever owned, not even partially.

[MaximRecoil]

Are you trying to impersonate a teenage chick, or do you just naturally think like one?

[cdr]

Face it, the ONLY reason this car isn't getting the same "what a dumbass'  comments is one freaking letter that causes the owner of such to feel a little 'above' all other Charger owners be it because if the value or the Hemi. The fact that some here are willing to take one in the ass for rusty pos fascinates me. Yet, will scoff at an R/T that is more solid and cheaper to boot.

Afterall, once a 'period correct' engine is stuffed in it, imo, its nothing but a real car with a cloned engine.
I'd have more fun looking at someone's turd they fixed up with a small block than looking at someone's overpriced 'hemi' car that is considered by the average Charger guy to be ' better' for whatever reason...but to each his/her own...

[bill440rt]

As far as '69 Chargers go, I think the car kicks ass and should be restored.
Hopefully it will find a new owner who also thinks the same.

[spiderjason]

Damn, Thats a lot of money for that car...  but I guess if someone is willing to pay it...  I know it will be worth a lot after its finished...

[Troy]

I don't recall specifically quoting you or specifically replying to you in any way. However, this is all I saw in your post:

I am most certainly one of those people you mentioned who doesn't get it!

Read the fist paragraph again. As for value: do you have any idea what these sell for? When I said less than half I meant it. You'll never see a "well done clone" sell for anything close to what prime example would.

That is all.

Troy

[rt green]

i  read all that hoping to find out if he bought the car. I hope he did, but i'm exhausted.