No spark when cranking

[HANDM]

Hey Guys,
I've been dinking with the Charger all day trying to figure this out.
Basically it's key on, got spark, bump key without engaging starter, spark, spark, spark. While cranking, no spark, key off spark.....

While checking with the meter and with key on I have, 12 at the resistor in, 8 ish at resistor out and the same at the coil.
Upon cranking, I immediately lose all voltage down to zero, stop cranking back to 8.

After beating that to death, did a little research and found that if I jump the relay with a screwdriver with the key on, I can get spark while cranking, did this and wham-o fires right up and idles perfectly (after sitting a year with this problem I might add)

I do a quick check on the charging voltage and find it is actually sucking volts, I was actually wathing the battery go from 12 to 11 to 10 and so on....
Turn it off and try to re start, it does but cranks very slow.... Turn off and next attempt, nada...dead

Re-charge the battery and knowing the "start" circuit is jacked up somewhere, attempt to start with the screwdriver at the relay and not surprisingly, it won't start. Check for spark from the coil using the driver and suddenly now there is no spark using that method.

Through it all, there is still the constant key on spark, bump spark but absolutely no crank spark......

Every ignition part is new and tested in the running driving Challenger.........

Any help would be greatly appreciated

Thanks

[nascarxx29]

Are you running the electronic or points ignition

[HANDM]

electronic

[A383Wing]

I had same issue..it was the ECU itself....spark when key on & off...no spark when crank.

4 & 5 pin boxes are different.....could be resistor as well

[nascarxx29]

Had the same module issue cranked no spark.And turned off the key and it will would kick

[A383Wing]

Had the same module issue cranked no spark.And turned off the key and it will would kick

yup...as did mine...box was bad

[HANDM]

Please hear me when I say that I have three new ecu boxes and each one works in the cuda and the challenger with no issues. Same thing with every other ignition part, the resistors, new, the relays, new, the voltage regulators, new, and the issue remains with the Charger only.

I am REALLY upset with this thing and I wish I had never restored it, it used to run with no issues ever 
lesson learned, if it aint broke, dont dick with it!

[nascarxx29]

What about the pick up and air gap setting .And module requires a good ground    http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,59990.0.html
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,41303.0.html

[hemi68charger]

-Check to make sure the ECU box is grounding properly
-Check you have current in and out of your ballast resistor
-Check that the pick-up in the distributor is ok ( think you can get new ones )
-If you do what I did, I got rid of the dang Chrysler Electronic Ignition and replaced it with a Pertronix Ignitor II

[flyinlow]

Check the power to the side of the ballast resistor that has the two wires spiced together.  During cranking the ignition switch energises the blue wire to the ballast. Since it is co- spices to the other blue wire that goes to the coil + terminal the coil should get full current during cranking. After the engine starts and you release the key from the start position the blue wire from the ignition switch is no longer energized. In run the ignition switch energises the brown wire to the other side of the ballast  resistor. Now the current has to pass thru the resistor, limiting it and dropping the voltage to 8 volts in the run position. For some reason power is not getting from the igniting switch to the ballast resistor in the start position.

Bad  switch or wiring. 

[HANDM]

Check the power to the side of the ballast resistor that has the two wires spiced together.  During cranking the ignition switch energises the blue wire to the ballast. Since it is co- spices to the other blue wire that goes to the coil + terminal the coil should get full current during cranking. After the engine starts and you release the key from the start position the blue wire from the ignition switch is no longer energized. In run the ignition switch energises the brown wire to the other side of the ballast  resistor. Now the current has to pass thru the resistor, limiting it and dropping the voltage to 8 volts in the run position. For some reason power is not getting from the igniting switch to the ballast resistor in the start position.

Bad  switch or wiring. 

I'm leaning toward wiring as I also tried a good spare ignition switch from the Polara with the same result..... New underhood harness though, so I can't see that being the trouble. I'll keep dinking around

[HANDM]

Further dicking has resulted in no change.....

As a recap, I have

Swapped every ignition part with no change
Tested all connections, all good, clean and tight
Was able to start and run bypassing the ignition switch (jumping relay)
Severe voltage drain while running, attempt to re-start with relay and no luck, back to no spark when cranking

Obviously I am losing the power on the start circuit but I can't seem to find the culprit or even where it could be....... 

[A383Wing]

4 or 5 pin box?

what box is on the other car that you swapped it out into?

[HANDM]

4 or 5 pin box?

what box is on the other car that you swapped it out into?

4 pin boxes in all cars

[Canadian1968]

Ok wait so let me get this straight . You have been able to get the car to start but when it does it just drains the battery as its running?

Why is no one suggest to check the alternator!!??  You said you have checked everything does that include the alt?
Also maybe a stupid question have you tried a different battery?

You said you have checked all connections. So they are tight and clean? What about the quality of the wire itself. If this is still original at any point in would try and replace it. I would especially be looking at your red wire that runs from the battery to the starter relay. This is more or less the heart of the entire car!! All power comes threw that when starting and back threw when charging.

Unless you have done some electrical upgrades already?? You may want to post I you have . The problem could lay somewhere in there???

I just had a very similar problem and it turned out to be a combination of slightly poor connections!! Just because your wire is " tight" don't always assume a good connection.

Have you tried voltage drop checks ??

[HANDM]

The car will no longer start at all even jumping the relay.
The alternator was replaced twice last year as it was eating them within days, new out of box, 13.6 volts, install in car and after 1 day it is dead and putting out 10 and draining the battery. This is obviously still a problem...

[A383Wing]

try this, unplug the regulator, both terminals, charge battery, and see if it starts with key.....my 66 would not start one day because the wire from ignition to regulator burnt from regulator short....I was cranking the car and it would not fire

just a suggestion

Bryan

[HANDM]

At this point, I am open to any suggestions...... 

[nascarxx29]

If you battery is going dead that fast you may have a dead on short.Or your not charging just running off the battery

[chargd72]

Did you try bypassing the starter by directly feeding the coil to battery?  At least see if you can get it to run this way.  Just don't leave it connected too long or you will fry your points.

[Pete in NH]

Hi,

As Bryan suggests, charge the battery back up with a battery charger. I think Canadian1968 is also on to something when he suggests the alternator/regulator system is not keeping the battery up. I think you're going to have to do a little troubleshooting and you may very well have two issues, one with the ignition system and one with the charging system. They may be related or they may not. Do you have a meter you can measure voltages with? I would charge the battery, get it running, and then measure the battery volage to confirm whether the charging system is working. With the engine running you should have 13.8 to 14.4 volts across the battery.

You mentioned a new underhood wiring harness, when was it installed and has the car even operated correctly since the harness was installed? Neither the charging system or ECU ignition in this car is too complicated, it should be possible to get things straightened out.

[nascarxx29]

This might help you track down a short in the harness.Just need a 12 volt testlight
http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?p=1969765126

[flyinlow]

Just so I am on the same page.  1969 Charger 383 converted to 4 pin  Mopar electronic ignition , rewired factory style, old style starter, single field wire alternator.

Status conformation questions:

You can still crank the engine normally with the ignition key ,but it will not start?

You can turn the key to run and then jump the starter relay on the firewall with a screwdriver ,cranking the engine and it will start and run?

After started this way the electrical  system voltage drops rapidly draining the battery and killing the ignition system?


New questions:

If you put a Known good, charged battery in the car ,leads attached ignition off ,does the voltage drop rapidly?

Does your current battery work normally in an other car?

If your car has a loud exhaust, any chance the starter is still running after you release the key or remove the screwdriver jump?

[HANDM]

Battery, fully charged, reading 12.6
Will spark with key on, key off and bumping it, as soon as the key gets to the crank/ start position, it loses all voltage down to zero.
Started ONCE and ran with screwdriver jump across relay, now that won't work

Still the same key on spark, key off spark and bump spark but no crank spark

And no, the car never ran or charged properly from the get go.

I also tried direct 12 to the coil with no result either.

Checked reluctor gap......within specs

pulled the distributer and spun it with key on had regular spark, put it back together and still the same... no start condition.

[flyinlow]

Still the same key on spark, key off spark and bump spark but no crank spark

I checked my '70 Charger 4pin Electronic ignition .... ignition on ,no spark.....ignition off ,one spark

You said you tried 3 ECU's , did you look at the ECU cannon plug and wiring?

[flyinlow]

pulled the distributer and spun it with key on had regular spark, put it back together and still the same... no start condition.

Does the rotor spin while the engine is being cranked?   (not being a wise guy, just checking)

[flyinlow]

Battery, fully charged, reading 12.6
Will spark with key on, key off and bumping it, as soon as the key gets to the crank/ start position, it loses all voltage down to zero.
/quote]



Ignition 2 feed is not getting to the coil during cranking. Start at the ignition switch and work your way toward the coil .Check at each junction with a test light. 

[flyinlow]

And no, the car never ran or charged properly from the get go.

Even without the alternator,  the car can be driven on just the battery for at least a couple of hours and the engine should run normally.

[Canadian1968]

Key in the off position and you get spark?? That should not be . I think you have short / broken wire some where in your harness , on the passenger side of the fire wall.

Do you have another starter relay you could try

[A383Wing]

no, he said when you turn off the key, it sparks maybe one time...which always for me was the ECU box went bad

[HANDM]

I have had these cars for over twenty years and have NEVER had this much spark trouble.....

Just got through verifying that the ECU is GOOD, put it in the Chally and it fired right up

Tried powering the coil directly from the battery, still won't start

Swapped the coil with the one in the chally, Chally fired right up

Both blue wires coming from the ignition switch have 12 with key on and immediate zero upon crank position whatever that means. Both switches do the same thing so I am sure that neither is bad.

At this point, I am simply giving up on the thing untill I can afford a new main harness. All others are new and being the cheap barstard that I am, decided that the old one was fine....... Obviously a huge mistake 

[PlainfieldCharger]

I really believe you have a bad engine or chassis ground. If you have spark when manually turning the distributor lose spark just by cranking the motor with the starter it sounds like the starters amperage draw is overwhelming the ignition ground.

[Canadian1968]

I really believe you have a bad engine or chassis ground. If you have spark when manually turning the distributor lose spark just by cranking the motor with the starter it sounds like the starters amperage draw is overwhelming the ignition ground.

He has a point . What is the only thing that changes when you turn the key to crank??  You power the yellow wire that runs to the starter relay , which in turn clicks the relay and energizes the starter solinoide and your starter cranks the motor . 

You said blue wires have 12v on run and 0 in crank. If your wires are disconnected from the ballast that is what should happen. The blue wire is powered threw the ballast from the brown wire during crank.

And the reverse applies brown wire should have 12 in crank an 0 in run. With the ballast hooked up you will get whatever ballast allows . I believe in your first post you said 8 volts?!

Your sure your ballast is still good right? You didn't fry it during all this testing?!

Also why not disconnect power to the starter and then take some readings ??

[HANDM]

I really believe you have a bad engine or chassis ground. If you have spark when manually turning the distributor lose spark just by cranking the motor with the starter it sounds like the starters amperage draw is overwhelming the ignition ground.

He has a point . What is the only thing that changes when you turn the key to crank??  You power the yellow wire that runs to the starter relay , which in turn clicks the relay and energizes the starter solinoide and your starter cranks the motor . 

You said blue wires have 12v on run and 0 in crank. If your wires are disconnected from the ballast that is what should happen. The blue wire is powered threw the ballast from the brown wire during crank.

And the reverse applies brown wire should have 12 in crank an 0 in run. With the ballast hooked up you will get whatever ballast allows . I believe in your first post you said 8 volts?!

Your sure your ballast is still good right? You didn't fry it during all this testing?!

Also why not disconnect power to the starter and then take some readings ??

Ballast is good, 12 in 8 out
I did find that the yellow wire to the relay has 12 when cranking (obviously) so I will disconnect it and try the crank position and see....

I did have several different ground issues after reassembly after paint but upon reading up, I promptly scraped all offending paint and eliminated (I thought) all issues and the car, at that point ran great till it developed the alternator/ regulator issues and then finally this years problem.

[PlainfieldCharger]

It is very hard to find weak grounds measuring voltage at "no load conditions". I recommend removing the ground wirers and cleaning them really good along with the mating surfaces. After cleaning the surfaces Might be a great idea to run another direct negative wire from the battery to the starter and trying starting it then.

[HANDM]

Pulled the dash to get a better look at the harness, found that the brown (ig 2) was disconnected from the plug. Pushed it back in and now....... still not sparking, in fact it only sparks with key on amd  key off and no longer sparks when bumped....... Gonna check voltage and all grounds later.......

[Canadian1968]

It's been a couple days . How are you making out

[HANDM]

It's been a couple days . How are you making out

Thanks for checking up    I haven't dinked with it for a couple days now as my dog had to have TPLO surgery ( look it up, it's gnarly but cool)

I dig get a chance to mess around for a minute yesterday and found with the brown wire hooked up (idiot me, I should have remembered that from last year) that there is still no no positive results within all of the circuits that I have been testing. 

There is NO voltage drain as confirmed by a previously posted test method
The yellow wire has 6.1 while cranking (should it be 12?)
Brown wire has 6.1 volts while in start and run (should it be 12 at start and 0 at run?)
Blue wires 9 at crank and 12 at run  (correct right?)

Found that if I remove the brown wire from the switch, it has 9.1 volts coming in while key is on (correct or weird?)

Thanks

[Canadian1968]

It's been a couple days . How are you making out

Thanks for checking up    I haven't dinked with it for a couple days now as my dog had to have TPLO surgery ( look it up, it's gnarly but cool)

I dig get a chance to mess around for a minute yesterday and found with the brown wire hooked up (idiot me, I should have remembered that from last year) that there is still no no positive results within all of the circuits that I have been testing. 

There is NO voltage drain as confirmed by a previously posted test method
The yellow wire has 6.1 while cranking (should it be 12?)
Brown wire has 6.1 volts while in start and run (should it be 12 at start and 0 at run?)
Blue wires 9 at crank and 12 at run  (correct right?)

Found that if I remove the brown wire from the switch, it has 9.1 volts coming in while key is on (correct or weird?)

Thanks

Where are you doing these test?? At the ballast? Or right at the ignition switch??
Your 6 volts on brown during crank is very low regardless of where the test is being done. There should be 11v. @ that wire , it will be less than battery since the starter does draw some on crank.

You said that your blue wire has 9v on crank?? That is impossible if your brown only has 6 . Like I said the blue wire is actually powered threw the resistor on crank. There is no power coming from the switch at this time. At least there shouldn't be !!!

It sounds like you are performing your test with the ballast connected . Do them with them disconnected .

As for your comment of 9v from brown on the switch. So basically you have pulled the wire out of the switch and are probing directly into the harness on the back of the switch?? Again this should be 12v or close to it on crank. 

Test the back of the switch where brown would go. Plug it in and then test at ballast connection ( unplugged of course) if these two numbers are different then. There is either a break in the wire or bulkhead connect is crap . Those are the ONLY things that can be wrong as the brown wire is single wire by itself with nothing else connected to it.

Start with that and see what you get

[HANDM]

Hey guys,

I just wanted to update this thread as I have finally gotten the Charger running again.

I removed the distributer, took it back to the place of purchase, had them look up the warrantee, find it's lifetime, get another, install and now it runs.

As mentioned previously, the pickup was the probable culprit but alas, I am unsure as to what the real cause was.

As for the charging issue, I installed a electronic regulator and it now is charging properly.

Finally as sort of a gift to the poor thing, I got some new tires and threw on the old 14's with hubcaps.....

later

[HANDM]

Of course, the thing is once again eating alternators and/ or regulators as it is not charging AGAIN!

Selling it is looking better and better........ I'm serious, it's just not worth it anymore, I know you all will say "step back" or "give it a few days" but at this point, I just don't know anymore..... it's tough to enjoy a car when you can't even drive it.