Rhetorical Question of the Night - tranny Q & A

[HeavyFuel]

Is my transmission fluid supposed to look like dark purple metallic paint?


My tranny developed a loud buzzing/humming/"zzzzzzzzzzzzz" type noise last weekend.  Been trying to diagnose it all week.

Tonight I used a siphone hose to extract a couple quarts of fluid through the dipstick tube.   Yeah......you can stir it and watch the pretty ultra-fine metallic flakes swirl around.

So much for the easy solution to my mystery noise.      


(I don't see an emo-con to express what I'm feeling right now......so I'll just use these:                     )

[A383Wing]

Two words..."It's toast"

time for rebuild 

[HeavyFuel]

(A383........purple font......nice touch... )


Just fired up the damn thing two months ago.......fresh rebuild.    

I suppose I F'd something up when assembling the tranny to the engine.....or the linkage...who knows WTF.   Maybe the tranny shop skipped a couple steps.

[HeavyFuel]

Anybody looking for nice '68 R/t....numbers car........haunted.....possibly cursed?   It did try to kill me a while back, remember that?


Will negotiate my terms of surrender.....

[A383Wing]

when you put the converter in, did it drop into the tangs correctly?

almost sounds like converter didn't get seated into pump right....

[cdr]

from your earlier post during the cam break in,you should have put the car in neutral and filled the trans,as it was ,it only had the little bit you put in the converter  

10.  20 MINUTES OVER.  Reduce rpm to idle, drop tranny into neutral to fill converter the rest of the way (I had added a couple quarts before installation).  Pump brakes a few times and roll this 'oven on wheels' out into the driveway.

[Kern Dog]

In 2006 I installed a trans that I had rebuilt in 2004. I was waiting for the 727 in the Charger to show signs of failure before swapping in the rebuilt one. I was swapping in a higher stall converter so I figured it was a good time. The rebuilt trans started acting up immediately, it failed within 10 miles. The fluid was as burned as if I tried to tow a bus up a 45 degree grade. I did everything right. Either the builder scxrewed up, the parts used were defective or mine sat too long and collected moisture. They waranteed mine.

[A383Wing]

Anybody looking for nice '68 R/t....numbers car........haunted.....possibly cursed?   It did try to kill me a while back, remember that?


Will negotiate my terms of surrender.....

let me check.....I got a dollar

[ws23rt]

In 2006 I installed a trans that I had rebuilt in 2004. I was waiting for the 727 in the Charger to show signs of failure before swapping in the rebuilt one. I was swapping in a higher stall converter so I figured it was a good time. The rebuilt trans started acting up immediately, it failed within 10 miles. The fluid was as burned as if I tried to tow a bus up a 45 degree grade. I did everything right. Either the builder scxrewed up, the parts used were defective or mine sat too long and collected moisture. They waranteed mine.

This is what warranties  are for.   But you are lucky cause these 727s are tough and can work for a long time with incorrect set up.

[HeavyFuel]

from your earlier post during the cam break in,you should have put the car in neutral and filled the trans,as it was ,it only had the little bit you put in the converter  

10.  20 MINUTES OVER.  Reduce rpm to idle, drop tranny into neutral to fill converter the rest of the way (I had added a couple quarts before installation).  Pump brakes a few times and roll this 'oven on wheels' out into the driveway.

So maybe I fried something during the cam break in.....which started a domino effect of some kind and failure?   I never even thought twice about the tranny during the cam break in.   

[A383Wing]

sounds about right...fluid is not being pumped in park...that's why they say check trans fluid in neutral

[Dino]

Aww no...I'm so sorry to hear that buddy.  But don't lose hope!  These things are fixable and parts are a plenty.  It doesn't mean you have to do it right now, nothing wrong with taking a break.


...I have 5 dollars by the way that could be yours...

[ottawamerc]

Ok I'm jumping in here at a solid $150 Don't be too disappointed with that draw back it is fixable

Scott

[Challenger340]

sounds about right...fluid is not being pumped in park...that's why they say check trans fluid in neutral

I could be wrong here, but I don't "think" there is any fluid lubrication flow in neutral either ? At least not on the earlier 727's prior to 1975 I think ?
Where is John Kunkel, he will know for sure, and correct me on this.

[cdr]

yes it pumps in neutral ,you can modify the valve body so it pumps in park also.

[john108]

Don't get too disappointed.  It is part of the hobby/life style.  I bought a 1976/7 440 engine to build a 505 stroker.  Stripped it down and took the block into the machine shop to clean and check.  It looked really GOOD to both of us but after magnaflux, a large crack was found, off to the scrap yard it went.  Now I am out a block but have a bunch of engine parts that I have no use for.  So, I am disappointed.

[ws23rt]

This discussion got me wondering about the park vs neutral for checking the fluid level.

I have checked the level hundreds of time over many years and don't recall seeing any difference. Having never tested it though that doesn't tell the story.

If there is a difference it must be small.

One thing is true however and that is the pump turns when the convertor turns.

Looking at the hydraulic circuit pictures in the FSM shows the same fluid flow path in both---Which looks like through the convertor and the cooler only.

In park the preasure is 5-30 psi---And in neutral it's at 55 psi

John what is the rest of the story?

[A383Wing]

start yer car up in the morning in park and check the fluid....then put it in neutral and re-check....you will see a difference

[69rtse4spd]

  Didn't get the converter tangs set in right one time, many years ago, tranny lasted about 8 miles, lesson learned.   

[Cooter]

Whining when running may be caused by pump cavitating due to trash in filter. However, if mettalic debris in enough to clog filter, there's most likely n internal problem as stated.

[Paul G]

Don't get disappointed and don't give up. These cars are going to break, they are old and tired. When they break we fix them. It is what we do. I have come to the conclusion that every job gets done three times before it is finally reliable. That is my average. My trans is a prime example. The 727 came out for a torque converter replacement, then the 727 came out and swapped the A518 in, then the A518 came back out when the governor broke and my Charger enjoyed a 300 mile ride home on a U-Haul trailer. I hope that is the third time for the tranny.

So just plan on dropping the trans again and fixing it, make it better than it was. When it is done take the car out, have some fun and break something else. It is what we do. 

[mauve66]

  Didn't get the converter tangs set in right one time, many years ago, tranny lasted about 8 miles, lesson learned.   

but if the convertor doesn't slip all the way on that last catch you can't bolt the block up so you know its not on all the way, right??

doesn't the nose of the convertor sit about 1/2 inch INSIDE the lip of the bell housing??

[John_Kunkel]

...fluid is not being pumped in park...

If the crankshaft is turning, fluid is being pumped but a wide open leak in Park prevents the converter from filling rapidly. The key is the fluid level, if the fluid level drops below the valve body all kinds of evil things can happen.

[A383Wing]

I guess I should have said "Fluid is not pumped "properly" in park" for ya

[ws23rt]

I guess I should have said "Fluid is not pumped "properly" in park" for ya

     You are not dismissed however---close enough

[HeavyFuel]

Thanks for the encouraging words, guys.

It lasted for about 700 miles, so I'm thinking something internal must have been screwy, not something that went wrong during assembly or cam break-in.

The rebuild shop must have goofed something up.  When I put it together, everything bolted together fine during the mating of the 727 housing to the block.  Flex plate attached as it should.  Driveshaft...too easy.  My kickdown linkage was off a bit when I checked it a week ago, but that shouldn't cause the tranny to eat itself, I wouldn't think.

A different reputable tranny shop is going to work on it next week.....gonna take the whole car in, not just the 727.

One exciting thing:  I didn't really think the car was performing as it should, power-wise.  This could be why, so I'm anxious to drive it on the other end of the trans rebuild. 

[ws23rt]

Keep us tuned in----follow ups are the most useful part of a thread like this---we all learn from it

[ottawamerc]

See light at the end of the tunnel

Scott

[HeavyFuel]

Keep us tuned in----follow ups are the most useful part of a thread like this---we all learn from it

Keeping with that line of thought, I observed a couple things in the weeks leading up to the noise in the tranny.  These things that I noticed were more subtle that a loud noise, and an experienced motorhead probably would have checked into a potential problem earlier.

1.  A few weeks ago I was approaching an offramp at about 60-ish, and for grins I dropped it into neutral, just to see how it free-wheeled at a higher speed.  Well, the car didn't keep speed at all....it slowed very fast.   Maybe nothing tranny related.....could be dragging brakes, slight front alignment problem (toe-in), or wind drag.  I just found it surprising that a heavy car wouldn't carry more momentum.

2.  A couple days before the noise showed up, the reverse seemed weird, almost like a 'direct' gearing.  I had to keep my foot on the gas to move the car in reverse.....again, no coasting.   I thought that was odd.


Food for thought.

[ws23rt]

When the transmission you are used to does something different that you are used to-- it is speaking to you.---

People seldom have it checked out properly at the first sign of something is up.  They usually drive it until it doesn't drive so good or at all. The fix at that time is much greater that it could have been.

The same with the engine---Oil changes and tune check make them go far beyond what we expect.

[HeavyFuel]

Update.

Well the car was a trailer queen this morning....took it the the tranny shop on a Featherlite borrowed from my uncle.  Nice friggin' trailer.   


The shop just called.  Failure of some kind inside the converter.       The noise was from the fins rubbing on something else, they figure.  The rest of the tranny looked not too bad.

He also said that a seal of some type (I can't recall what he called it) was the wrong one.  Thank you, prior tranny shop.   

He figures it'll cost me about a grand.   The wife is gonna have my ass.   

Can you 'break' a converter.....or install it wrong?          Did I do something wrong?


Hughes converter, if anyones wondering.

[Dino]

Update.

Well the car was a trailer queen this morning....took it the the tranny shop on a Featherlite borrowed from my uncle.  Nice friggin' trailer.   


The shop just called.  Failure of some kind inside the converter.       The noise was from the fins rubbing on something else, they figure.  The rest of the tranny looked not too bad.

He also said that a seal of some type (I can't recall what he called it) was the wrong one.  Thank you, prior tranny shop.   

He figures it'll cost me about a grand.   The wife is gonna have my ass.   

Can you 'break' a converter.....or install it wrong?          Did I do something wrong?


Hughes converter, if anyones wondering.

Let me get this straight.  You paid a shop to do the trans and...why is that shop not paying for the repairs they are responsible for?  Less than 1000 miles should be well covered no?  Sorry if I missed something.

[Paul G]

I had a converter fail, twice. Once a lock up converter failed in my 01 Ram. Warranty covered a $2500 tranny bill. The symptom then was it just would not lock up. They wanted to rebuild the tranny to clean out all the junk from whatever the converter may have spit out. 

The converter in my 72 failed. It would not stahl. No stahl speed. Grabbed as soon as you gave it gas. The guy who changed it said it was a fins problem inside the converter. ?

[ws23rt]

Update.

Well the car was a trailer queen this morning....took it the the tranny shop on a Featherlite borrowed from my uncle.  Nice friggin' trailer.  


The shop just called.  Failure of some kind inside the converter.       The noise was from the fins rubbing on something else, they figure.  The rest of the tranny looked not too bad.

He also said that a seal of some type (I can't recall what he called it) was the wrong one.  Thank you, prior tranny shop.  

He figures it'll cost me about a grand.   The wife is gonna have my ass.    

Can you 'break' a converter.....or install it wrong?          Did I do something wrong?


Hughes converter, if anyones wondering.

You can install a converter wrong but that only has to do with it engaging with the transmission pump.

That doesn't seem to be the trouble you have. An internal problem with the convertor is a manufacturing or rebuilding issue.
You are not at fault. You are an unhappy consumer with a bad part.

Your transmission feels pain from this as well.  You are due compensation.

[myk]

I had a converter fail, twice. Once a lock up converter failed in my 01 Ram. Warranty covered a $2500 tranny bill. The symptom then was it just would not lock up. They wanted to rebuild the tranny to clean out all the junk from whatever the converter may have spit out. 

The converter in my 72 failed. It would not stahl. No stahl speed. Grabbed as soon as you gave it gas. The guy who changed it said it was a fins problem inside the converter. ?

When you say the converter "would not stall" and "grabbed" as soon as you gave it gas, what do you mean by that; what would the car do?

[ws23rt]

I had a converter fail, twice. Once a lock up converter failed in my 01 Ram. Warranty covered a $2500 tranny bill. The symptom then was it just would not lock up. They wanted to rebuild the tranny to clean out all the junk from whatever the converter may have spit out.  

The converter in my 72 failed. It would not stahl. No stahl speed. Grabbed as soon as you gave it gas. The guy who changed it said it was a fins problem inside the converter. ?

When you say the converter "would not stall" and "grabbed" as soon as you gave it gas, what do you mean by that; what would the car do?

I'd like to know too.  I have never had a convertor fail and it would be helpful to know what it feels like when it does.

[Paul G]

The converter in my 72 failed. It would not stahl. No stahl speed. Grabbed as soon as you gave it gas. The guy who changed it said it was a fins problem inside the converter. ?

When you say the converter "would not stall" and "grabbed" as soon as you gave it gas, what do you mean by that; what would the car do?

The engine would bog badly right off idle when flooring the gas peddle. Not too noticeable when taking off slowly. From idle, when giving it gas, it would start to pull right away. Normally the engine rpm should rise before the car pulls hard. That is the stahl, letting the rpm come up before the converter loads the engine. I went through carb and ignition issues for weeks. Turned out to be the converter gone bad.

[myk]

The converter in my 72 failed. It would not stahl. No stahl speed. Grabbed as soon as you gave it gas. The guy who changed it said it was a fins problem inside the converter. ?

When you say the converter "would not stall" and "grabbed" as soon as you gave it gas, what do you mean by that; what would the car do?

The engine would bog badly right off idle when flooring the gas peddle. Not too noticeable when taking off slowly. From idle, when giving it gas, it would start to pull right away. Normally the engine rpm should rise before the car pulls hard. That is the stahl, letting the rpm come up before the converter loads the engine. I went through carb and ignition issues for weeks. Turned out to be the converter gone bad.

You don't say?  From what you describe we've encountered similar problems with our cars.  Heck I even started a thread about it: http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,104129.0.html

Your symptoms are the closest that anyone's ever come to mine.  I can't help but wonder if I'm experiencing the same problem you did.  How did you come to the conclusion that the converter was the problem?  What converter did you end up getting?  

[Paul G]

I had a thread going on here about it too. The final thing was to check the stahl by standing on the brake while gassing the car a little,  watch your rpm, the tires should not break loose until the converter is loaded. Some where around 2000 rpm or abouts. Mine would pull hard right off idle. Dont know what brand that converter was. I had a shop put in a used converter he had with a 3000 stahl. That.converter was fun, but not street friendly. The engine would have to hit 1500 rpm to move the car. Great burn outs, just hard to drive on the street. I did an A518 swap after that. I have a Hughes 2400 stahl lock up converter now and could not be happier.

[HeavyFuel]

Update.

Well the car was a trailer queen this morning....took it the the tranny shop on a Featherlite borrowed from my uncle.  Nice friggin' trailer.   


The shop just called.  Failure of some kind inside the converter.       The noise was from the fins rubbing on something else, they figure.  The rest of the tranny looked not too bad.

He also said that a seal of some type (I can't recall what he called it) was the wrong one.  Thank you, prior tranny shop.   

He figures it'll cost me about a grand.   The wife is gonna have my ass.   

Can you 'break' a converter.....or install it wrong?          Did I do something wrong?


Hughes converter, if anyones wondering.

Let me get this straight.  You paid a shop to do the trans and...why is that shop not paying for the repairs they are responsible for?  Less than 1000 miles should be well covered no?  Sorry if I missed something.

The tranny didn't fail, per say, it was the converter.  So the original shop won't take ownership of the problem, since I went with an aftermarket converter on my own.

I might be able to go after the converter manufacturer for some compensation.   

[Cooter]

Yes these newer lock up converters to take a dump from time to time.
Has something to do "buzzing solenoids" instead of just allowing fluid flow to where it needs to be.

[Dino]

Update.

Well the car was a trailer queen this morning....took it the the tranny shop on a Featherlite borrowed from my uncle.  Nice friggin' trailer.   


The shop just called.  Failure of some kind inside the converter.       The noise was from the fins rubbing on something else, they figure.  The rest of the tranny looked not too bad.

He also said that a seal of some type (I can't recall what he called it) was the wrong one.  Thank you, prior tranny shop.   

He figures it'll cost me about a grand.   The wife is gonna have my ass.   

Can you 'break' a converter.....or install it wrong?          Did I do something wrong?


Hughes converter, if anyones wondering.

Let me get this straight.  You paid a shop to do the trans and...why is that shop not paying for the repairs they are responsible for?  Less than 1000 miles should be well covered no?  Sorry if I missed something.

The tranny didn't fail, per say, it was the converter.  So the original shop won't take ownership of the problem, since I went with an aftermarket converter on my own.

I might be able to go after the converter manufacturer for some compensation.   

Oh I see.  Well it was worth a shot! 

And it's also worth talking to the manufacturer about this.  You have nothing to lose but a few minutes of your time.

[HeavyFuel]

OK......$986 later.....

It's been longer than a year since I bought the converter, so Hughes won't give me anything.  But Summit took pity on me and is sending out a gift certificate.  Hey, better than nothing.  

So.....I went back to the factory 'high stall', which is advertised at around 2000 stall, and a Transgo mild shift kit was added to the valve body.

The car drives WAY different.    

1.  The shifts are much more pronounced now, but not overly so.

2.  3rd gear is attained very quickly (1 to 2, 2 to 3) during very mild acceleration.  Is that normal?

3.  The car starts to move a little when you take the foot off the brake.  It never did that before with the other converter, in fact I had to goose the throttle pretty good just to get the car to budge.

4. I had a little bog before with the higher stall, and it came on when I tried to get on it a little bit....never taking off mildly from a stop.  NOW.......I have a serious bog taking off from a stop under light throttle.   I can't get on it at all, or it wants to kill.    


I'm thinking of a couple things.

-Could it be my vacuum advance pod thing on the dizzy is not functioning, resulting in loss of advance when I need it at low RPM?          (the old higher stall converter allowed the mechanical to kick in)        I plan to map out the curve, but that's hard to do and have the engine under load, to simulate vacuum changes.

-Fuel problem.....does bog mean lack of fuel most of the time?  Should I increase the accelerator pump shot?  (It's in the middle hole now, factory Carter AVS)  Increase idle mixture?  I know those are minor adjustments, but my carburator experience/knowledge is limited.


Any ideas/thoughts are appreciated!

[Dino]

At slow speed the trans does shift fairly soon but it's the kick down adjustment that dictates when it shifts, unless something else is going on.  Is it set up correctly?

Disconnect vacuum advance altogether, at least for now until the bog is fixed.  It is most likely not enough fuel.  If you stomp it and it dies it would likely smell of raw fuel when it does.  If it does not then it's too lean.  This is not an exact science btw, just what  I encountered with my own car.

You can move the accelerator pump shot to the hole closest to the carb to see if it gets better but before you do, move the throttle while looking down the carb and see what the squirt looks like.  Any way you can post a video of what the accel pump is doing?

The car moving by itself is pretty normal for an auto.  Mine does it as well.

[myk]

4. I had a little bog before with the higher stall, and it came on when I tried to get on it a little bit....never taking off mildly from a stop.  NOW.......I have a serious bog taking off from a stop under light throttle.   I can't get on it at all, or it wants to kill.    

You and me both; I didn't have the problem that you're experiencing until my converter was replaced along with my transmission being rebuilt.  I've played around with tuning possibilities for years and can't get away from the bog; I'm thinking it's the converter-I'm out of ideas...

[cudaken]

Heavy, with a stock converter it is normal for the car to move when you take your foot off the brake. What year converter did you go with? I have used a 74 Police Converter, it has a 2400 RPM stall, love that converter!  Mine is a forged crank motor so I had to knock off the counter weight but that was easy.

Shift points, depending on the rear end gear. With 3:23's and just a little gas shift to 2nd by 25 MPH and 3rd at 35 MPH.

Bog, what cam are you running? I have a 509 MP cam in the 68 Road Runner and it had a really bad bog when I had the timing at 14 degrees BTDC. I have the timing now at 20 degrees and bog is gone! I do run a old Accel mechanical advances distributor with dual points.  What can I say, I am old! 

Cuda Ken   

[HeavyFuel]

Heavy, with a stock converter it is normal for the car to move when you take your foot off the brake. What year converter did you go with?
I went with the stock converter for the HP 440 in '68.

I have used a 74 Police Converter, it has a 2400 RPM stall, love that converter!  Mine is a forged crank motor so I had to knock off the counter weight but that was easy.

Shift points, depending on the rear end gear. With 3:23's and just a little gas shift to 2nd by 25 MPH and 3rd at 35 MPH.

I've got 3.23's and under light throttle I go to 2nd at around 20 mph, then to 3rd at about 23 mph......it's quick.

Bog, what cam are you running? I have a 509 MP cam in the 68 Road Runner and it had a really bad bog when I had the timing at 14 degrees BTDC. I have the timing now at 20 degrees and bog is gone! I do run a old Accel mechanical advances distributor with dual points.  What can I say, I am old! 

Stock 440 HP cam from '68.   Ken, are you running vac advance or not?  At 20 degrees BTDC, what does your mech advance max at?  I woud like to bump my advance a little to see it that helps, but I'm afraid of pre detonation.  I run a MP electronic conversion.

Cuda Ken   

[HeavyFuel]

Just got back from a ride......

65 degrees....nice and cool...

Getting used to the way that the new converter operates.  I think it's gonna work out.

The drone/noise inside the car seems less with this converter.....don't know for sure, could be imagining it, but it sounds better.

The engine didn't bog quite as bad after it got good and warm.  I checked the choke position when I got home and it might not be all the way open.  Is it suppose to have a little more to open up when fully off, or should it be stopped against something, unable to move any more?  I'm taking about the linkage on the trottle side.

Great to be driving again.....    This gonna be a long winter....when it gets here.

[cudaken]

 Heavy Fuel, you need to adjust your kick down and make it a little longer. You can poop the ball socket for the linkage that come up from the transmission a few turns. Take it for a test drive and see where it shifts. If you run out of thread, you can all so turn the slotted linkage tat goes to the carb.

Shifting that fast will cook the transmission fairly quickly.

If you like I think I can scan my factory manual on how to adjust the kick down.

On my 68 Road Runner I run a aftermarket intake and 750 Holley. Linkage was to short. So I cheated, I installed a nut and bolt in the rear of the linkage slot that goes to the carb!  

Mine distributor is mechanical advances. With you having a stock cam, I would stay in the BTDC 12 to 15 range. Hum, just checked the factory spec and if the motor code is K it should be 7.5 BTDC and code L is 5 BTDC. That is with the vacuum advances discounted.  Gosh I have not ran a stock Mopar Cam in 20 years!  

I will check later what the total advances is, but with the amount of overlap with the 509 MP cam, detonation is not a problem!

By the way, you had the repairs done professional by a shop? If you don't want to mess with it, I take it back to them and make it there problem!
If you get it wrong (it is pretty easy) you will be eating another 727.

Cuda Ken    

[cudaken]

 Heavy, I will be pulling out the shop manual later. I will see what the shift points should be if listed in that fashion.

Ken

[HeavyFuel]

Heavy, I will be pulling out the shop manual later. I will see what the shift points should be if listed in that fashion.

Ken

I've got the SM for my '68.   

I'll double check the linkage.

Thanks.    

[cudaken]

 More I think about, the more I thinking I am remembering incorrectly.  Until a few weeks I had not drive a old Mopar for 8 years.

I might be remembering the kick down points and not shift points. I will read the factory manual today and up date an mistakes.

Cuda Ken 

[cudaken]

Here you go.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FY9WTWayCC8

[HeavyFuel]

Here you go.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FY9WTWayCC8

Awesome old school video.  Thanks.  

That's exactly how the SM describes the process for mine......I made some adjustments last night.  My vertical linkage coming up from the tranny was a few turns too short, maybe 1/8 to 3/16th inch or so.  That in turn effected the linkage to the throttle pin.

I'll give it a drive tonight, see if there's a difference.  

[cudaken]

Glad that was of some help. After read manual again it did state if you did not have the tool have someone push the lever forward some.

You might all so check out Paul's post.

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,104859.0.html

I am glad I was of some help.

By the way, what is your first name?

Ken