Power Steering input

[JB400]

This crossed my mind during a conversation.  Since it seems common practice to install a firmer power steering box like a Firm Feel unit, my question is: Is it harder to turn the steering wheel when the engine isn't running with a firmer box than it is with a stock box?  I'm just wandering if I should eat my Wheaties before I drive the car in case the car suddenly stalls and turning the wheel is required.   

[68 RT]

No it is not, and as long as the car is moving it is not bad at all, not fun but not too bad.   

[JB400]

That's nice to know.   I'm considering getting one for mine, but wanted to know about any possible consequences for such an upgrade in an emergency situation.  Thanks for the reply

[Dino]

Any power steering car with power removed will be a bear to steer.  That's why we have Titanic steering wheels!

[CairnsGeneral]

Just logged in to hunt for power steering vs manual, and recognized my partner in crime stroker400 but we wont even go near that one again ha ha



I just need some opinions on which is really better ? Ive got a tired manual steering box and was going to do the conversion to power, but I see guys going the other way as well as some not too glowing opinions on the powered performance.
In my mind, it would have to be better over all than manual, manual is ok (once your moving) but what about manual with a fast ratio upgrade etc etc?

[Dino]

The best of both worlds is having power steering with a firm feel chuck.  That'll give it a more modern feel.  Manual steering is fine as long as you don't drive a lot.   

[bill440rt]

There is also a Borgeson kit out there now, which supposedly has much better road feel & response than the firmed up original boxes. Almost steering rack-like.
And they are lighter & smaller also. Might be worth looking in to.

https://www.borgeson.com/xcart/product.php?productid=1722&cat=142&page=

[CairnsGeneral]

Great thanks very much guys, `

I had a look at the Borgeson link, and that sounds like a great way to go. Firm power steering with faster ratio as well. No point scrimping on something when you want it right I suppose.

I'll start with that unit I think, and match everything up to suit it. Not many Dodge chargers in Australia, so your experiences and knowledge is really appreciated !

[myk]

The Firm Feel units are under $400; not a bad price IMO.  When I finally tear into the front end the Firm Feel will get installed...

[bill440rt]

Borgeson's website says you have to cut the steering column, however according to a recent Mopar Action article they stated it now comes with a modified stock-type coupler so no cutting was necessary.

myk, that price from Firm Feel also doesn't take into account a core charge. 
I have a Steer-n-Gear Stage 2 in my '69, if the Borgeson units were out back then when I did the swap I definitely would have went with one. The FF is still based on a stock box, same response as original just "firmer".

[myk]

Borgeson's website says you have to cut the steering column, however according to a recent Mopar Action article they stated it now comes with a modified stock-type coupler so no cutting was necessary.

myk, that price from Firm Feel also doesn't take into account a core charge. 
I have a Steer-n-Gear Stage 2 in my '69, if the Borgeson units were out back then when I did the swap I definitely would have went with one. The FF is still based on a stock box, same response as original just "firmer".

Even with their varying grades of "firmness?"  Asides from the firmness of the steering, what other qualities should I be looking for?  I will definitely look into Steer n Gear and the Borgeson again if the Firm Feel is lacking somehow...

[bill440rt]

Steer-n-Gear & Firm Feel are both similar companies. They take used, stock boxes & rebuild them with varying degrees of "firmness": stock, Stage 1, or Stage 2.
I went with Steer-n-Gear because: 1) They were at Carlisle. 2) No shipping costs. 3) No core charge (I had one). 4) No shipping costs to send in a core (I brought it with me).
Both companies had good reviews.

But, it's still based on the old steering box design.
I've never driven a car with the Borgeson conversion, but... it's supposed to be a much better, improved design over the 45+ year old boxes with better response.
I'd like to drive one just to see how they compare. Try finding the Mopar Action article either on their website or a back issue, it was a good read.

[Dino]

I would love to go from my stock setup to test driving one with the firm feel and then one with the Borgerson.  Never gonna happen, but it would be nice.

[myk]

I'm guessing that either one of those company's products will be better than the stock box...

[WHITE AND RED 69]

I'm guessing that either one of those company's products will be better than the stock box...

Oh yeah, way better. Unless you prefer the over assisted light steering wheel feel. The best part of the Borgeson besides the weight savings is it is a quicker ratio built in. The stock ratio is 16:1 and the Borgeson is 14:1. So it takes out almost half a turn of the wheel without modifying anything else. 

If I was to redo mine today I 'd go with the Borgeson(I wish it was around when I did my swap ). Nothing wrong with firm feel or steer and gear but I was wanting to add the quick ratio idler and pitman arms to my firm feel box but with my headers there was no way to make it fit. The Borgeson would have got the wheel feel I was looking for along with the quick ratio steering.

[myk]

Wait...the "quick" ratio stuff won't fit on our cars with headers?  That's a deal breaker!

[WHITE AND RED 69]

Depends on what headers you have. Or how big of a clearance dent you want to make on the tube. For some guys it has worked but for my TTI headers I would have had to basically smashed the header tube flat to get them to fit. And I wasn't about to do that.

Firm Feel and Hotchkis both have lists of what headers will fit with the quick ratio arms and what ones won't.   

[myk]

Depends on what headers you have. Or how big of a clearance dent you want to make on the tube. For some guys it has worked but for my TTI headers I would have had to basically smashed the header tube flat to get them to fit. And I wasn't about to do that.

Firm Feel and Hotchkis both have lists of what headers will fit with the quick ratio arms and what ones won't.   

I want those TTi's; looks like the Firm Feel and the Steer-whatever are out of the question if I want to get a quicker ratio.  Is the quicker ratio critical to you guys? 

[WHITE AND RED 69]

Yeah, I wish I could have installed the quick ratio arms but it's not critical. I'm fine with the way it drives right now. The main goal was to get rid of the loose steering wheel feel.

[bill440rt]

Yeah, I wish I could have installed the quick ratio arms but it's not critical. I'm fine with the way it drives right now. The main goal was to get rid of the loose steering wheel feel.

Same here.
I have the Steer-n-Gear box with TTI's.
It's still an improvement over the stock box, I am happy with it.
I only mention the Borgeson because it seems like an improvement over FF or SnG.

[myk]

Anything at this point is better than the stock box; that thing will be the death of my car and I one of these days...

[Dino]

Then likely your chuck is dead.  Mine feels nice and firm but it's that power over assist that kills it for me.

[jlatessa]

The over-assist can be fixed for pennies, E-Booger had an article in one of the
Mopar mags. I'll see if I can find it again.

It involves changing the shim thickness in the pump valve, akin to the oil pressure relief valve in our oil pump.
I did it, but haven't driven the car yet to test.

Joe

[jlatessa]

Here it is


http://www.moparaction.com/tech/beep/PUMP_IT_DOWN-re-v1.4.pdf


Joe

[myk]

Here it is


http://www.moparaction.com/tech/beep/PUMP_IT_DOWN-re-v1.4.pdf


Joe

Wow, stop the presses.  All you have to do is squeeze in a 3/8" washer? 

[jlatessa]

Makes sense though right,?
bleed off some pressure and the assist is lessened.
Joe

[myk]

Makes sense though right,?
bleed off some pressure and the assist is lessened.
Joe

Yes it does, I'm just trying to make sure I have the process correct so as to not screw it up. 

[jlatessa]

It was easy, do you have a pair of micrometers or dial calipers
to measure thickness?

Take care not to mar the outside diameter of the valve body
when dis-assembling.

Joe

P.S. I got a shim/washer kit from McMaster-Carr that worked perfectly.
I'll see if I can find the paperwork.

Joe

P.P.S. On the McMaster Carr web site, go to 'shim/washer assortment'
it allows you to choose specific ID/ODs . I don't remember what sizes they were,
that's where your calipers will tell you what to order, they were inexpensive with about a dozen or so
pieces, if I remember.

Joe

[myk]

It was easy, do you have a pair of micrometers or dial calipers
to measure thickness?

Take care not to mar the outside diameter of the valve body
when dis-assembling.

Joe

P.S. I got a shim/washer kit from McMaster-Carr that worked perfectly.
I'll see if I can find the paperwork.

Joe

P.P.S. On the McMaster Carr web site, go to 'shim/washer assortment'
it allows you to choose specific ID/ODs . I don't remember what sizes they were,
that's where your calipers will tell you what to order, they were inexpensive with about a dozen or so
pieces, if I remember.

Joe

And that would be my issue; I don't have the tools to measure the washers, which would leave me clueless at the hardware store.  How different can washers be amongst themselves?  If you end up remembering what sizes you got, let me know. 

[jlatessa]

I'll start digging

[Dino]

I started a thread about this mod a long time ago.  I already have a ton of things to do to the car, but this is worth the effort.  I'm doing this mod, so there.   

[bill440rt]

The power steering shim article was also excellent.
However, if your PS box isn't up to snuff you're going to be left with firmer steering and a sloppy box. Not an improvement. This is also mentioned in the article IIRC.

[jlatessa]

If you are going to be a "gear head" go to Sears and buy a cheap pair of dial calipers,
shouldn't be much more than $25, they're not hard to learn and you'll find them very valuable in the future.

Joe

[jlatessa]

Found the shim/washer package!!!

It's from McMaster-Carr, their item # Z9885-20-BR, 10 pcs.

Hope this helps, Joe

P.S.  If you'd like, I can put a few in an envelope for you,
free, of course.

Joe

[Dino]

Found the shim/washer package!!!

It's from McMaster-Carr, their item # Z9885-20-BR, 10 pcs.

Hope this helps, Joe

P.S.  If you'd like, I can put a few in an envelope for you,
free, of course.

Joe

How many are needed to do the mod?  1 or 2 or more?  I'd love some but don't mind paying, at least for your trouble! 

[jlatessa]

If I remember, it was 1 or 2 with the old washer,
I'll send you 3 in an envelope, PM me at; jlatessa@roadrunner.com with your address.

Joe

P.S. What trouble?? plenty of favors done for me...pass it on

[Dino]

If I remember, it was 1 or 2 with the old washer,
I'll send you 3 in an envelope, PM me at; jlatessa@roadrunner.com with your address.

Joe

P.S. What trouble?? plenty of favors done for me...pass it on

Sent!  Thanks Joe!