No McRibs For You Today

[will]

Where was all the " you can't live on that, you should get thi$" crowd when I was starting out. "Tough it out kid, you'll get there" is what they used to tell me. I was broke and I won't go back, if I can help it. Jumping up and down because you think you're worth more is the mantra of everybody. 98% of the people don't think they make enough, that's the way of the world. When I started working 29 ago at age 16 the world was a different place, but I wasn't too proud to push a mower or put cans on a shelf or gas in a rich ladys' car. Now a days some people think they should make $25 an hour to do $8 jobs. I lived on $6 an hour, but I worked 2 jobs. I figured out early on that hard work beats complaining every time. Times have changed, but you need to change your circumstances to change your life.

$6 an hour in 1985 had the same buying power as $13 an hour today...Wow! You were rolling in the dough!!!

In Westchester county, New York, I think not. My rent was $600 a month back then.

[JB400]

Part time work is going to be the norm for the foreseeable future.  Everyone is just going to have to deal with it.  How do you like your "Change" now?

[Steve P.]

I don't think you want to make this a POLITICAL THREAD, Stroker. 

[JB400]

I don't think you want to make this a POLITICAL THREAD, Stroker.  

Sorry, dumb move on my part.

Just trying to lighten the mood a little.

[Mopar Nut]

Ok, what have you guys done with your Charger lately.

[JB400]

We don't do that stuff anymore.

[RECHRGD]

Well, I'm dating myself here, but...... When I started working at something other than mowing lawns or other odd jobs, I was 14 and I was a busboy/dishwasher at the minimum wage of $1.25 per hour.  For a kid living at home the minimum wage was/is great for spending money or just to save for something you want.  These were jobs that led to other jobs that were steps up along the way.  Once I was 18 I had a good enough background to get work well above the minimum wage scale and could move out on my own.  My career choices along the way got me to where I am now; comfortably retired.  But, it's a different world now.  As others have said, "the minimum wage was never meant to be a living wage" and, in general, that is correct.  However, over the years our job market has changed dramatically.  Our manufacturing jobs that once comfortably filled a gab between the low wage earners and professionals have been disappearing for decades now.  We have turned into a service orientated society.  The job market sucks, unless you are in one of the pockets in our country that are thriving.  Blame the politicians, big business or both, but it will not get better anytime soon.  I certainly understand business and know that added expenses mean higher prices for the consumer.  They have to make a profit or cease to exist.  There is no easy answer in my opinion.  We are just beginning to see this country lose it's middle class and become a nation of the haves and have nots....

[ws23rt]

I learned my lessons in economics by growing up with little.
I am one of seven kids and our mother worked two jobs to raise and feed us. We always had food and a lot of fun growing up with what we had.

There was a list of tasks that she posted of chores that needed to be done and a price that would be paid for each task. Some of us would do none of them but the rest had some pocket change

High school for me was in the way of making a living and I finally quit in my senior year to get a job. That job was minimum wage. To get it there were hoops to jump through because I was not a HS grad. ( I was 18). With that job I bought my first new car---69 super bee 4sp---
Three years later still working at the same place now making about $2 over min. wage I bought my first house.  I picked a career in 1976 and quit that job to get into an apprenticeship that was a $2 per hour cut in pay.  In 1985 when construction was in the dumps I took a job at a sheet metal fab shop for $11 per hr. At that pay rate I bought my second house for 95K and had now two mortgage payments to make. Money was always tight for me but the effort and investment I made for myself has paid off. I now have no mortgage payments and a renter that pays the taxes.

The point I am trying to make should be clear enough. Making good financial decisions and following a path that leads upward will pay off. How one spends their money is an individual choice but when they don't work for that money and live off of other peoples money It gets my feathers ruffled because that money comes out of my pocket. I worked for myself not someone else.

The laws of economics are much like the laws of physics. They are not something that was composed by a group of people. They are a language we use to describe the way things are. If for instance we passed a law to reduce the effect that gravity has on us in order to benefit fat people there would be a ripple effect that every one would have to endure.

When a law is passed to change the minimum wage it will have consequences that ripple in many directions dictated by the rules of economics

Suppose a maximum wage were to be imposed.--- Those that provide the jobs would lose incentive to do so and the need for a minimum wage would become moot.--- Next would be a drive to make all wages the same to fix what the max wage caused.  

Such is the nature of meddling with mother nature.

[69finder]

Come on up to Ft. McMoney.  Minimum wage $15/hr.  If you want to make 100K a year washing oil off trucks, NO experience needed.

[nh_mopar_fan]

Psssssssssssssst, that multi-million dollar corporation doesn't own the over whelming majority of these restaurants. They are owned by franchisees. Those owners are the people who pay the wages.

As for Australia, 2 small coffees and 2 egg mcmuffins are $17.00

[Fred]

Where was all the " you can't live on that, you should get thi$" crowd when I was starting out. "Tough it out kid, you'll get there" is what they used to tell me. I was broke and I won't go back, if I can help it. Jumping up and down because you think you're worth more is the mantra of everybody. 98% of the people don't think they make enough, that's the way of the world. When I started working 29 ago at age 16 the world was a different place, but I wasn't too proud to push a mower or put cans on a shelf or gas in a rich ladys' car. Now a days some people think they should make $25 an hour to do $8 jobs. I lived on $6 an hour, but I worked 2 jobs. I figured out early on that hard work beats complaining every time. Times have changed, but you need to change your circumstances to change your life.

[Steve P.]

Yes, raising the minimum wage would cause employers to take a cut in THEIR OWN POCKET. For a while.. Many businesses have argued that they would have to cut jobs. Others have already started paying better wages and proven that it not only can be done, but are finding that their employees are doing a better job and are not calling out near as often..

I also had issues in the beginning of my working career. Not due to quitting high school. No, I graduated 1.5 years early. At 16 years old I could not get a full time job anywhere as their insurance would not cover me until I was 18... (I have no idea how that makes any sense as I could work there part time). That's just how it was. So I worked 32 hours at Sears in automotive and ay a Mobile station pumping gas and busting tires and such. I worked there another 30 hours per week. So I could work 62 hours per week on 2 different jobs to make just a bit more than my buddy did working 40 hours at Sears doing exactly what I did... Tires, batteries, alignments, brakes and exhaust.  How is that fair??? He also got vacation pay and medical benefits. So add that to it and he was making more than I was for 22 less hours PER WEEK... That is exactly how all these people feel.

My wife just told me about her sister raising hell about someone that was at the hospital where she works.. She was making the same argument to a coworker as I have read here today.. It turns out a woman sitting in the waiting room overheard my sister in law. She then walked over and excused herself saying that the nice new car the hurt girl was driving when hit was HER CAR. The MOTHERS CAR!! The fancy cell phone she bitched about is a gift for xmas for the last 3 years from her parents and the nice expensive purse was a gift from a handicapped woman she drives to the store and to doctors to earn money outside her job at WALMART....... The girl with no insurance had been hit by another car and told the cops she will not get into an ambulance because she cannot afford it...   Why should people live like that?  

Again, it's nobodies business what others are doing with their money. They earned it just as you do. Who is the elitist that gets to tell you or me how we should spend our money or what on??  If I told you that you should give up your car because you don't deserve it you would punch me straight in the face!!!!!!!  

Yes, everything is different from when we were young. Yes, we worked our asses off. BUT there were JOBS!!!!!  Today much has gone to other countries, automation and a huge culprit is 1 person working 2 jobs.. That means person number 2 is sitting at home looking online or in the paper for ANYTHING!!!!

1 magor point. The more people that get back to work, the more people will be happy, feel like they ARE getting somewhere and getting off help from others.. That also means that they are paying INTO TAXES. Not taking them away... Raising the minimum wage would hurt owners for a short while. Once people are back on track financially they will be SPENDING MORE.. If I have 5 bucks and a burger is 6, I don't eat.. If I have 10 bucks and the burger is now 6 bucks, I not only get to eat a burger, but I can buy a drink to wash it down!!!!! The business now sells a drink and makes more profit to be able to pay their workers a good wage..

San Francisco has proven it. Costco has proven it.. And they make NOWHERE NEAR the money that WAL MART'S TOP DOGS DO!!

[Steve P.]

And Australia has a minimum wage of,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,  ( 16.88 )...

Here is a pretty interesting link for you to ponder.....

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/08/19/the-u-s-has-a-7-25-minimum-wage-australias-is-16-88/

[nh_mopar_fan]

Steve,

As the example I already gave you in Australia, employees wages are paid by the customers. Plain and simple. It's a pipedream to think that the cost of labor will go up and not be completely offset by a rise in prices to cover it. The $8 small coffee and egg mcmuffin is proof of that.

I won't even go into the fact that if you're making $16 but a bottle of water in any store is $4 all day long or your coffee and sandwich for breakfast is $8, what have you gained?

When I owned my own business, I'd have loved to pay more. I could probably get a higher quality employee. But, in order to do that, I'd have to charge more for our service and the market would not bear it and without customers, my employees would have no job.

Period. End of story. That is the harsh reality on the ground for most business owners.

[Tilar]

I recently made a purchase at BIG LOTS. The man that sold helped me told me he works 2 jobs. Big Lots is doing exactly what Walmart is doing with ONLY HIRING PART TIME.. So this 40 something man with a family has 2 part time jobs. His wife has 1 part time job and their 16 year old daughter works at McDonalds PART TIME... All money into the pot to keep what they already had... NO VACATION. NO HEALTHCARE. NO TIME WITH FAMILY.

Soon part time jobs are going to be the only thing people can get due to the healthcare fiasco we now have on the books. Any employees the company has under 30 hours are not bound to the requirements. Many hospitals around here are even going to 28 hour work weeks with no overtime or benefits available.

I love that many of you have great jobs and are completely secure. I can tell you that you are dwindling in numbers..

Great job? I wouldn't go that far because I only have a 4 hour a day contract and I pay $360 a month out of that for health insurance. Secure, pretty well. I'll never go hungry as long as I can hang onto a couple rental properties I have and the family farm.

People spend according to what they make. If you get used to making 60k or 80k a year, most people will have a budget and payments based on that.  I know a lot of people that were making 100k+ a year at the local GM plant for many years and when it closed they were bankrupt within 6 months. How the hell this happens just blows my mind. Why were they not putting half that in the bank for days like this?? I can tell you why, Because the prestige of that 250k house and new cars were worth more to them than living in say a 60k house and putting a little money in savings for times like this.

[ws23rt]

When I was in the seventh grade I remember daydreaming and looking out the window.  At that moment I began looking forward to being older and financially secure.
It was clear that there was much ahead that required a lot of work. The struggle was all around me. (oh if I was only fifty life would be a breeze).

When my daughter got married she and my new son in law came to me for financial advice.  They came together with much credit card debt, car payments, etc. and now with two kids and a thirst for living larger they asked what to do. They wanted to buy a house and were thinking of filing bankruptcy as a path to that end.---Hold on kids---

This was three years ago.  They now have a new house. The credit cards have been payed off. They are very comfortable and did not skip out on the debt they had.

I know this doesn't speak to the minimum wage topic. But I think it fits in with life style and financial responsibility that ties the two together.

[Steve P.]

Tilar, I agree with most of what you just said, but what you call a fiasco is just the opposite to most. Our governor fought tooth and nail against it saying it was going to cost jobs and raise prices for those whom already have insurance. NOW the hospitals in this state are telling him that he needs to get onboard with it as they have done their homework and see that it will make them more money... Even one of my doctors that raised hell about it has now found that he will actually have less trouble getting tests done and not have to take people with NO INSURANCE.... All of a sudden he's all in!!

Many markets have said that the average costs will go down to the people. California and NY have both figured that the avg. cost will be DOWN as much as 50%....

Hospitals like it as they will not be stiffed for billing anymore and it will streamline major medical needs.. This is in part due to all dr.s being in the same room to decide a patient's best shot..  I have been in the position of too many DR.s not talking and have had many tests done that were not necessary.

Both of my daughters work for doctors. One just started, but the other has told me time and again how no one wanted it in the beginning, but now they all can't wait for it to be fully implemented...

Nothing comes without some work and fine tuning. The fact that other countries do it. Have it. It works well for them is enough reason to expect that it will work here just fine in the future..
It is LAW now. So fighting it is ridiculous.   And as Rick Scot is finding out, his own lobbyists are telling him it is good and to except the funding...

Remember, we had electric cars before gas and it took us 100 years to get 30 miles to a gallon.. Now with the threat of losing market share the big companies are putting together much better MPG and now their own electric cars... When they figure out how to store a house sized battery into a nano car gas will be all but gone... Just like the electric car was 100 years ago..

[Steve P.]

WS,   you are right. Everything depends on how you handle everything.. But not everyone is in that same boat. Some have a easier road. Some harder. All I am saying is that I feel in 1976 when I started working, jobs were available. And they could lead to BETTER JOBS. Today is not even close. Today a 2 year degree still has you begging for a job.. I know this as my kids have gone through it.. Fact is, we STILL are helping our kids.. They are both married and have their own families, but in this area, ( RIGHT TO WORK STATE), employers show you the door on day 1.. They say: Do you remember being on the other side of this door? Do you know how many others are waiting for you to mess up? So no one says a word and they just take it..

I know many who are helping out their kids. Some living BACK at home with mom and dad.. We help our kids out. They want a house. Who doesn't?? And the fact is, it is more expensive to RENT around here since 2004-5 than it is to buy a house today..  And in the end you OWN IT. Not getting a letter saying we sold the house and you must go. OR the multiple letters saying the rent just went up another $100.00 per month!!!!

These younger people have quite a bit to complain about.. I see it as I am right here watching day by day..

[ws23rt]

Steve
We do agree on all of this

BTW the help I gave my kids was not financial.  It was just advice.

[stripedelete]

WS,   you are right. Everything depends on how you handle everything.. But not everyone is in that same boat. Some have a easier road. Some harder. All I am saying is that I feel in 1976 when I started working, jobs were available. And they could lead to BETTER JOBS. Today is not even close. Today a 2 year degree still has you begging for a job.. I know this as my kids have gone through it.. Fact is, we STILL are helping our kids.. They are both married and have their own families, but in this area, ( RIGHT TO WORK STATE), employers show you the door on day 1.. They say: Do you remember being on the other side of this door? Do you know how many others are waiting for you to mess up? So no one says a word and they just take it..

I know many who are helping out their kids. Some living BACK at home with mom and dad.. We help our kids out. They want a house. Who doesn't?? And the fact is, it is more expensive to RENT around here since 2004-5 than it is to buy a house today..  And in the end you OWN IT. Not getting a letter saying we sold the house and you must go. OR the multiple letters saying the rent just went up another $100.00 per month!!!!

These younger people have quite a bit to complain about.. I see it as I am right here watching day by day..

Do them a favor and stop helping them.  They are a product of the 20+ year economic hallucination they grew up during.  The clock is being reset.
It might be painful watching them drive a p.o.s, live in a dump, and work two jobs, but, if you remember, that is the way we all made our bones.   

The times are not that much different, however, the level of entitlement is.   

[Steve P.]

So you think it is better to let them lose their homes and live in the streets?  Maybe you just don't understand this very well. These are adults that DO WORK many jobs. They also have families. My older daughter bought a house and now has room for her kids to grow up NOT on a couch. This HOUSE is very small, but close enough to schools that when they are older, they can walk. It costs them LESS MONEY to own than to rent.... A 2 bedroom house behind our old house is renting for $850 per month. It has a 3rd bedroom made from the single car garage and still has the washer/dryer in it as well as the hot water heater and power panel. So renting cost them $1200 per year more than their total nut now.

The younger daughter is in our old house and buying it from us in another year. They are renting that house from us now, but they are paying much less than market for that house. They are also paying mush less to us in rent than the house would bring.. It is much bigger than the house directly behind it and all updated everything. Plus once they buy it, they will have my old shop as well..

I remember all too well busting my ass to get ahead. No one lifted a finger for us.. BUT,,,, many more jobs were available to us.. I took on all kinds of work on the side of my regular job. Today that same side work is long gone as everyone under the sun is doing it for their FULL TIME ANY MONEY THEY CAN MAKE...

Maybe you have not seen car after car with lawnmowers hanging out of their trunks where you live.. We see it all day long.. These guys are undercutting the professionals. Taking their jobs.... Now how are they to support their homes and families and their workers?

We have pawn shop after pawn shop here now. Probably at least 3 per miles on US-19. I have seen people selling their own beds and dressers. For very little and that is to eat today!!! These people don't have a car or jewelry or fancy clothes and they damn sure are not eating out.. Out of dumpsters, yes!!!

I read that some garbage companies are having restaurants LOCK their dumpsters so they don't accidentally pick up PEOPLE..

I am far from saying that we all have to do what it takes, but the jobs out there today are very hard to actually make any money on..

I read that 24% of TEEN JOBS are just plain gone. Those are the summer jobs that people took to pay for college rooms and food and to live. 24% ... Those are the McDonalds and Walmart summer help jobs that are now filled by part time workers with college degrees and working behind a register or filling shelves..  I know personally a teacher who now works at Publix grocery store in the bakery. A TEACHER!!!!

As I said before, maybe where you live things are not so bad.. Florida is a right to work state and they damn sure let you know it.... 

[2Gunz]

The real issue is the lack of decent jobs.

Our country is pretty much all service industry.
The service industry is not a sustainable economic cycle.
Maybe sometime we will figure that out.

Until that happens...... we will just keep digging a hole to lay in.

[69finder]

The problem is 14 Trillion in debt.  And the Fed buying back treasuries (that are worthless, great plan!).

Once QE is over, then we (ie the rest of the world) is going to see a massive economic collapse.  You can already see the effect of free/cheap money on the world and the resulting pullback.

You think 2007-08 was bad?  The next 'dip' is going to be a good one.  AND the fed better stay the course and let it happen otherwise it just keeps getting worse and worse.

[JB400]

To answer your first question Steve, yes and no.  Some people are just a victim of circumstance and shouldn't have to suffer the way they do.  Those types of people need the help.  Others asked for this situation and they should get it and suffer the consequences.  Careless spending on their part just means they need to learn to respect money and how they get it.  If that means standing in line in a soup kitchen, then so be it. 

The problem is 14 Trillion in debt.  And the Fed buying back treasuries (that are worthless, great plan!).

Once QE is over, then we (ie the rest of the world) is going to see a massive economic collapse.  You can already see the effect of free/cheap money on the world and the resulting pullback.

You think 2007-08 was bad?  The next 'dip' is going to be a good one.  AND the fed better stay the course and let it happen otherwise it just keeps getting worse and worse.

The way to fix the debt is to sell bonds.  Quitting the wasteful spending would help as well, but good luck with that.  Let the people invest in the country instead of just borrowing more money and taxing everyone.

As far as creating jobs, we need to be more lenient on our taxes and policies.  The EPA and CAFE needs to back off tremendously.   Cutting the corporate tax would help out quite a bit as well.  But, no one is interested in doing any of these things. Big business needs to be a friend instead of the enemy that it has become.  Having money shouldn't be a crime.  Having bright ideas shouldn't be dismissed either.  (Crap, I said dismissed )

  Unfortunately, the people that complain about not having a job, or at least a decent one, don't realize this.  They're digging their own grave the way I see it.

[69finder]

The only solution as Cramer says is, PAIN!  But no one likes pain.  I'm an 80's kid, so I LOVE pain.  I love frugality, and saving, but in this inflationary/free money time, there's really no incentive to save.

It's stupid to save, just keep buying hard assets and keep borrowing (what's the drawback?). 

People won't work free/cheap up here, it's quite the opposite, oil money is flowing!  The problem is inflation creeping in, everyone wants $40 to change ONE tire.

The great news is that people are smiling all the way to oblivion.  I just have to smile and go along