440 and Manual 4-Speed Trans Question.

[MxRacer855]

Hey guys, I'm Jeff and am completely new to this forum (any car forum in general).
I recently bought my dream car about six months ago, a '68 Charger. I've been around bikes all of my life and know my way around motors a bit, but I can honestly say that I'm in the initial stages of a crash course on cars right now, so bare with me! 
My '68 was originally a 383, The guy I purchased it from put a 440 from a '66 in it (date stamped on block/intake). With that being said, it's not an original R/T with a numbers matching Hemi, so I'm not that concerned with keeping everything original. Although the interior and body is in amazing shape, the motor and trans seem a little bit rough. There's a few questions I have regarding this setup. I would like to rebuild my motor and possibly get a new transmission (the stock one feels like it slips a little bit). So here we go:

1) I know that some years of 440's had more power than others. A '68 440 should have 375 hp, whereas a '72 440 only produced 335hp to comply with new standards. Does anyone know how much hp a '66 (the first year) 440 put out, and if it was a good year for that new engine?

2) Part two of that first question is: Roughly, how much would it cost to rebuild that motor from top to bottom making it reliable and putting out anything from 450-500 hp? That's kind of an oxy-moron.. reliable & powerful, but I just meant to rebuild it with all new gaskets, pistons, etc. No more oil leaks or anything with a good amount of power. Possibly Edelbrock aluminum heads, carb, etc.

3) Lastly, how much should I pay for a 4-speed manual transmission and everything needed to make it turn-key? I've always wanted a manual trans and it's very exciting to gather information that can allow me to set my eyes on the prize.

Thanks for any information you can share with me guys! Take care.

-Jeff

[myk]

I'm pretty sure the difference in power between a '68 and a '72 440 is the rating of the engine; that is, in the glory days of the 60's they measured horsepower by "gross," but in the 70's they started measuring power by "net."  There were also a variety of 440 applications such as motor homes that had less aggressive power potentials than the ones found in cars.  I wouldn't worry about what "year" 440 to have, as the power comes from the type of 'cam, valvetrain pieces, pistons and the intake/fuel management setup used to feed the engine.  In other words, you can build up an anemic '77 440 to be just as mean as anything from the 60's.  

Are you sure your motor is need of a rebuild?  If you haven't already, go through the engine's systems and make sure what you have is good and the motor is running as strong as it can; in other words, give it a solid tuneup.  A badly tuned car will run like a dog-it doesn't matter what year or what trick power pieces are on the car.  Also, if you're unsure about the motor's condition you can have a compression and/or a leak-down test performed so you can see if the engine is still making good compression.  If the motor doesn't do well in those tests, THEN start thinking about a rebuild.  As for cost, are you doing the work yourself?  I haven't had my 440 rebuilt for years, but I'm guessing a typical rebuild will cost $4-5K?  Someone correct me if I'm wrong.  The cost will be less, if you are doing the assembly and are just farming out the machine work.  Keep in mind that trick parts like 'Eddy heads are great, but I think they're about $1500 or so.  

I don't know the cost of an 833 parts set up, but there're a lot of threads with 727 to 833 swaps so I'm sure the cost will come up in there somewhere.  Good luck and post pictures of your car!

[six-tee-nine]

Check this link out.

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,9234.0.html

A good 4 speed setup will cost you some coin, for extra info :

http://www.brewersperformance.com/
https://www.passonperformance.com/

About 440's : you can find so much info about it that you wont know what to believe. But if you wan to re build it from schratch it does'nt really matter what year it is.
The power ratio's vary mostly due to a change in compression ratio's.

[Troy]

I don't have time to write a lot of details BUT...

If you're building a 440 from the ground up it doesn't much matter which block you start with.

Where do you live? (Looks like Illinois.) Machine shops on either coast are waaaaay more expensive than here in the Midwest. It's almost cheaper to send your block here, have it built, then ship it back. OR, order a proven combo crate motor from a place like Muscle motors and sell your non-matching engine to someone locally.

You'll need to do a little welding to convert to a 4-speed. Expect the mechanical parts to cost $2,500-4,500 - depending on whether you scour for deals on individual parts or just order a kit from a vendor. You can save a little money by going with a somewhat weaker 23 spline transmission instead of the so-called "Hemi" 18 spline version. All the rest of the parts (except clutch disc) are the same between them. Of course, if you build a big motor AND get it to hook up you'll likely break the weaker input shaft so it's better to start with the beefier version.

Troy

[68CoronetRT]

I kinda just went through a motor rebuild and I'll throw in a little input.

Dont use the 73+ blocks, they are cast crank and externally balanced. Real pain to deal with. I spent around 4,000$ to do a complete rebuild with almost all new parts except pistons/block/cam/timing chain. I went with 440 source aluminum heads and I'd say i'm in the 450ish range.

If you have any specific questions PM me.

[Scaregrabber]

The 66 440 has a forged crankshaft but the block does not have the stiffening ribs on the side of it so the block is slightly weaker than a block with the stiffening ribs. I would not let that slow me down on a street rebuild. The cost of a rebuild depends on your local machine shop costs. I would use Edelbrock heads and lightweight forged pistons along with a 500ish lift hydraulic cam for a street rebuild this will put out around 450HP and be fun to drive.
It would be best to try to find a complete 4 speed changeover with all the required parts such as clutch linkage, flywheel, shifter etc. Costs are again all over the place but if you were to gather all the parts for less than $2k you would have to consider yourself lucky.

Sheldon

[A383Wing]

decide which way you want to go first...automatic & 4spd crankshafts are different in the trans end. If you build a motor with an automatic crankshaft, then decide to go with 4spd trans, well, you get the idea. Best bet is to put a 4spd crank in the engine and then decide on auto trans or not

Bryan

[Homerr]

I thought the end of an auto crankshaft just needs to be bored out a bit?

[A383Wing]

depth for input shaft is also not finished.....I had to cut some off the end of my input shaft to get trans bolted up to my bellhousing

[Cooter]

One more thing to remember is when using an auto crank [Forged], SOME, NOT ALL, are not bored to the correct size for pilot bushing [stock].

Some require what I refer to as a "Conversion" bushing. So, there's about .030 difference between them. If you cannot get a stock bushing in the crank, then you will need the .030 under bushing (Conversion). I have only ran up on this twice in 15 years, but it DOES happen, along with the above mentioned drilling depth thing.

[A383Wing]

yea..I thought that I had said that, but guess I didn't...the meds are taking their toll

[Supercharged Riot]

well for starters, Rolling_Thunder has an A833 transmission for sale. Fully rebuild and ready to install. Look

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,104002.0.html

[Cooter]

yea..I thought that I had said that, but guess I didn't...the meds are taking their toll

At least you didn't dismiss out of hand...

[cjw916]

I just post a classified with pedals & many extras you could use if doing an auto to manual conversion, IJS.

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,104082.msg1235792.html#msg1235792

Christopher

[MxRacer855]

Thanks for all of the information guys! That was very helpful and has now left me with some direction to go. I apologize for the late response, I went out of town immediately following my post, unaware of the difficulties I would have with internet in the days to come.

I'll definitely take what all of you said as my best option since you've all been there and know what you're talking about. I'll keep you updated with what I end up doing and I'm sure I'll have many more questions/comments/posts! Thanks again everyone!

Here's my car and I! 

[ws23rt]

I just post a classified with pedals & many extras you could use if doing an auto to manual conversion, IJS.

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,104082.msg1235792.html#msg1235792

Christopher

In your add I don't see a bracket for the over center spring & pin or the spring & pin and a stud plate for the firewall connection.  
Are those available?  If so I know a member that may need them.
Sorry I couldn't post this question in your add

[cjw916]

ws23rt,

Yeah, I don't know why but you cannot REPLY to classified ads on the forum, so you hafta PM a member to ask questions that might be relevant to others. Moderators prolly did that to keep trolls from leaving annoying comments about price, etc. I wish you could REPLY to ads so all can get questions answered. . .

My assembly never had the overcenter spring & pin? I never knew there was such a thing until I was looking at Brewer's for a friend who is doing a '69 Coronet auto to 4-speed swap. I ran my car for 20 years without it? My clutch pedal had the botton on the LH side of the pedal for the spring, I always wondered what that button was for, lol, as the mechanical linkage mounted to the button on the RH (brake pedal) side.

Pin:
http://www.brewersperformance.com/proddetail.asp?prod=OCP236

Spring:
http://www.brewersperformance.com/proddetail.asp?prod=OCS936

I think the firewall plate is present in my assembly, it is black & sandwiched between the pedal assembly & the booster, has a wiring loom retainer mounted to it on the engine side, is that the plate you were referring to?

Christopher.

[cjw916]

Brewer's says the overcenter spring, pin & bracket is only necessary on 3 finger pressure plates, I remember I installed a more modern multi-finger PP (had like close to 20?) so maybe that's why I never missed not having it? They repro it, here:

http://www.brewersperformance.com/proddetail.asp?prod=CPK-E

Christopher

[ws23rt]

Brewer's says the overcenter spring, pin & bracket is only necessary on 3 finger pressure plates, I remember I installed a more modern multi-finger PP (had like close to 20?) so maybe that's why I never missed not having it? They repro it, here:

http://www.brewersperformance.com/proddetail.asp?prod=CPK-E

Christopher

The plate by the booster is the one I was asking about.
Thanks for the info. I can sill learn new things

OOps edit--- The plate I was referring to is a narrow plate About 1in by 3in with two studs in it.
It mounts on the fire wall from the engine side next to the fender. It's for the bracket that holds the over center spring & pin. The bracket I am talking about is also missing from your pic.

[Troy]

I think you're referring to the firewall reinforcement plate. It's available as a reproduction. I don't think they're any more than $20 and you should be able to find them just about anywhere.

Troy

[Joshua]

If you keep a sharp eye out for deals and van do the work yourself...you should be able to round up all the 4 speed stuff for under $1500. I converted my R/T for half that..as I made parts that most people would buy.

[BrianShaughnessy]

If you're going to put out $$$ to convert to 4 speed you might want to consider a 5 speed conversion.....    because doing 80 in the left lane is better than being passed by doing 60 in the right lane

[MxRacer855]

$1,500 is definitely cheaper than the price I originally had in mind. That would be an amazing build for me in that price range. It's still up in the air what I'm going to do. I have a little bit before I can completely purge my bank account on this car, haha. I know now that I would like to build the motor to put out roughly 600-700 hp. I think that would entail buying a stroker kit, aluminum heads, the whole 9...

If I can't find a 4-speed (or want to use 5 speed), I might just have my 727 rebuilt with a shift kit able to hold the motors power. I would also like to throw in a Dana 60 rear end at the same time. I'm hoping to have all of this done by the spring. I asked my boss to just load me up with work so I can make it happen. If I could pull that off for under 10K, I would be very happy.