Old question needs new guesses...

[myk]

Took the car out today and couldn't stop thinking about a problem that's been with the car for a long time now:

I didn't know anything about cars when I bought the Charger.  In fact, I was so clueless I didn't know that the 727 only had its first two gears, and no 3rd gear.  Other than the missing gear, the car ran very well though.   

So, I took the car to a shop and spent the customary $2500 to get the 727 fixed; obviously the car drove like a completely different vehicle with three gears and it was great, BUT....the car developed a really bad off-idle hesitation/stumble/bog just as soon as you started to give the car gas.  I asked the shop about the problem but naturally they claimed their work had nothing to do with the engine or any of its components, just the 727. 

Over the next 16 years the Charger saw two different engines, another 727 rebuild, a new ignition system, a complete re-wire and more carburetors, intakes and more component changes than I can even begin to remember, but through it all that off-idle bog/hesitation/stumble is still there! 

So my question to you guys is this: what could be causing that hesitation?  Keep in mind that the car didn't hesitate or show any other drivability problems until the day I got the car back from the transmission shop.  I'm no ASE Master 'Tech but that tells me that something to happened to the car while it was getting the 727 fixed.  But what?  I don't see how transmission work could ever cause a car to develop a hesitation.  Additionally, there have been so many mechanical changes to the car over the years that I can't believe the hesitiation is still there.  Do you guys have any ideas?  This has stumped me for almost 20 years so any suggestions would be greatly appreciated...

[redgum78]

Over the next 16 years the Charger saw two different engines, another 727 rebuild, a new ignition system, a complete re-wire and more carburetors, intakes and more component changes than I can even begin to remember, but through it all that off-idle bog/hesitation/stumble is still there! 

Still there after all that! Have you replaced your shoes? Your RH one might have a flat spot on it!

Sorry for that. Someone here will chime in. Good luck with it!

[charger Downunder]

If you have replaced the engine and carbs you would of replaced the fuel pump as well. So i would drop the fuel tank clean it out and clean all the fuel lines and put a new sock on the pick up. I assume you are running a stock engine. From your posts you have changed everything else.

[myk]

New tank, new lines, I've gone through my share of fuel pumps as well.  Currently, I run an electric fuel pump.  I don't think there's a mechanical piece on this car that hasn't been changed; some more than once.  Well, except for maybe the headlight doors and those pieces...

[green69rt]

Did the transmission kick down linkage ever get reset??  If they had the tranny out they may have screwed it up

[myk]

Oh I'm sure they didn't bother to adjust it properly.  But I'm trying to think how the kickdown linkage would cause a hesitation issue?

[green69rt]

Just guessing.  I like to find the simplest answer to a problem first and this seems like an easy check.  When you said it started after the tranny rebuild it seemed like a good place to start.  Really reaching here but the linkage is easy to check so why not??

[cdr]

more than likely it is an accelerator pump problem,or initial timing.

[John_Kunkel]

It's unlikely the trans would contribute to off-idle stumbling unless the converter was replaced with a much tighter unit. Even then, you should be able to tune around it with carb adjustments/timing.

Even if the pump shot is adequate, and there is still a stumble, richening the idle mixture can help.

[myk]

It's unlikely the trans would contribute to off-idle stumbling unless the converter was replaced with a much tighter unit. Even then, you should be able to tune around it with carb adjustments/timing.

Even if the pump shot is adequate, and there is still a stumble, richening the idle mixture can help.

You know, someone else mentioned a "tight" torque converter but what does that mean, exactly? 

As for my pump shot, I'm currently using an Edelbrock 750CFM and it's set for the maximum shot of fuel at the accelerator pump.  As for my idle, it's running a bit rich as of now, I was thinking of turning it down some more.  The torque converter theory interests me though; it's probably the only mechanical part that hasn't been swapped out since the first rebuild, and when the off-idle stumble started...

[Dino]

Badly adjusted linkage 'can' give that hesitation effect but seeing you had all these changes done, it's highly unlikely the culprit.  That said, make sure the linkage is correct and set to specs.  I ran the same carb until recently and it's a finicky feller. 

Those 1407's always run rich at idle.  I used a vacuum gauge to get the highest possible reading, then dropped the idle screws a half turn each and that was as good as it ever was.  Edelbrock does sell a tuning kit for around $45 if you're dedicated to keeping the carb.

[myk]

Badly adjusted linkage 'can' give that hesitation effect but seeing you had all these changes done, it's highly unlikely the culprit.  That said, make sure the linkage is correct and set to specs.  I ran the same carb until recently and it's a finicky feller. 

Those 1407's always run rich at idle.  I used a vacuum gauge to get the highest possible reading, then dropped the idle screws a half turn each and that was as good as it ever was.  Edelbrock does sell a tuning kit for around $45 if you're dedicated to keeping the carb.

Well I haven't changed the linkage, so is there a possibility that the linkage has something to do with the off-idle bog?  If so, how does that work?  As for the 'carb, I've decided that a Holley will replace the Edelbrock-not much a fan of that 'carb...

[Dino]

Badly adjusted linkage 'can' give that hesitation effect but seeing you had all these changes done, it's highly unlikely the culprit.  That said, make sure the linkage is correct and set to specs.  I ran the same carb until recently and it's a finicky feller. 

Those 1407's always run rich at idle.  I used a vacuum gauge to get the highest possible reading, then dropped the idle screws a half turn each and that was as good as it ever was.  Edelbrock does sell a tuning kit for around $45 if you're dedicated to keeping the carb.

Well I haven't changed the linkage, so is there a possibility that the linkage has something to do with the off-idle bog?  If so, how does that work?  As for the 'carb, I've decided that a Holley will replace the Edelbrock-not much a fan of that 'carb...

Since you've had different carbs on there and the same bog, it's a slim chance the linkage is the issue, just something that needs attention.

The linkage needs a specific amount of play in its parts to work properly.  Too much more or less and you're not getting your money's worth.  Nowadays a computer tells the components how much gas to give it but in these dinosaurs it's a few rods that control the flow.  Sloppy linkage can make your car run like a dog so definitely check it out and set it to specs.  Got the FSM?

[Cooter]

Opinions will vary on converters, but typically a 'tighter'converter doesn't have stall speed that a'looser'converter will..
This could very well be your problem as the carb might not like the engines torque band moved that far down in the rpm band.
383?
3.23 gear?
Not much stroke so might need a little higher stall speed.

[myk]

Huh. You know I never thought of it that way.  Someone once suggested that the shop may have erroneously installed a "truck" converter; I didn't really know if they knew what they were talking about, but I got the idea that maybe the new torque converter they installed may have been the problem.  Again, NOTHING was wrong with the car until I got it back from the transmission shop.  The problem has to lie in the 727, converter, or as someone else has suggested, the linkage; anything that the transmission people might have changed.  Question is, how do I go about troubleshooting this problem?  Install another converter?

BTW I'm running a stock 440, 750CFM 'carb, and.........I believe it's a 2.76 ratio (car used to be a 383 2V)?  Definitely not lower than a 3.23...

[Cooter]

Myk, bout the only way to know for sure is try one of those 2500 stall converters which ain't much higher than stock as you don't want/need a high stall racing converter, and see what it feels like.

[myk]

Got it.  Any particular unit or brand you guys recommend? 

[Cooter]

As with anything else I'm sure you know. There's "cheap" converters, and "good" converters...

A GOOD Stall converter usually (depending on stall speed) ranges from $300-$1000.00

I run a G.E.R. (Used to be George E. Reynolds), now it's
GER Precision Convertor & Transmission
PO Box 40
Oxford PA 19363
800-233-3188
610-932-5377 fax
610-932-5353

Also, http://www.patsperformanceconverters.com/

Some say they have had problems with TCI. I haven't yet. B&M as well.
A&A Transmissions
PA transmissions
Coan Racing converters
Turbo Action

Plenty to chose from out there.

[A383Wing]

in my opinion, I don't see how a converter will cause this...

are you sure the accelerator cable is adjusted correctly? There might be too much slack in the cable and it's not moving the carb lever when you move the pedal

Bryan

[mickelsdogs]

Every thing under hood a ok fine. K SO just another  dumb blind guess? Is the gas pedal  cable working off the ramp at the top of pedal where ramp is starting at ? Sure seemed to me that mine was KINDA REALLY FLAT__________ TILL I BENT THE GAS PEDAL    twards me. Keeping the throttle cable at the IDLE possition  I  THEN SPOT WELDED  PLACE .  The way the come is PRESS FIT The arm inside  of car where pedal  and cable meet. The ramp on the top of gas pedal sure seems to HAVE a DIRECT CONNECTION  2 accelerator pump N dist. advance AND makes me  hang on for dear life  when  I CHOOSE  OK so u never tryed to make the dent DEEPER In The floorboard. Its A MOPAR like u B the first 1, 2 do that.  Also what is the condition of you ORIGINAL THROTTLE CABLE. Mine was 1966 till problem.  Now can and will sign in  with SURE GRIPAS I CHOOSE

[myk]

in my opinion, I don't see how a converter will cause this...

are you sure the accelerator cable is adjusted correctly? There might be too much slack in the cable and it's not moving the carb lever when you move the pedal

Bryan

I can't explain it either but I "think" I get the gist of it: a torque converter designed for lower power, low RPM applications would drag on the engine before it could get enough power to overcome the converter itself; therefore the engine gets "held back" for a brief moment (hesitation/bog) until the RPM's overcome the converter?  I don't know if that makes any sense-I don't get converters at all.

Good idea on the throttle cable though, I'll definitely look for slack tomorrow morning.  Off hand, would the throttle cable be disturbed by work done on the 727?  I can't picture the setup in the engine bay right now...

[John_Kunkel]

Keep this in mind, the "tightest" converter ever installed in a Mopar was at one time coupled to the wildest of Mopar engines and they didn't stumble.

Your problem is in the carb, the Carter/Edelbrock carbs are notorious for having lazy pump shots; again, try richening the idle mixture.

[myk]

Keep this in mind, the "tightest" converter ever installed in a Mopar was at one time coupled to the wildest of Mopar engines and they didn't stumble.

Your problem is in the carb, the Carter/Edelbrock carbs are notorious for having lazy pump shots; again, try richening the idle mixture.

I have the pump shot adjusted to its maximum and I'm certain the car is too rich as it is.  In your opinion is the converter even a remote possibility?  Again this problem didn't exist until I took the car back from the 727's rebuild.  I find it difficult to understand why the Edelbrock was adequate one day and then not so much the next.  Regardless, thank you everyone for trying to give me ideas...

[green69rt]

Just one more thought.  When the transmission was rebuilt the shop may have screwed something else up in the area.  I wonder how they took it out because you need to get at all the bell housing bolts.  Since you said the car has gone thru many mods since then it doesn't seem likely but.... have all the vacuum lines been inspected, for breaks, going to the right ports, are they all there??  I'm still looking for the simple answer.

[74Rallye]

Set the Edelbrock carb linkage for the max pump shot.
Look for anything that could allow a vacuum leak.
Is the distributor connected to the correct vacuum source?
Look at how your distributor's vacuum advance and mechanical advance are coming in.
Try disconnecting and plugging the vacuum advance line and re-adjusting the distributor timing.
The Edelbrock carb adjusting kit can be helpful to.
   

[Ghoste]

Put a Holley on it?

[myk]

1 Set the Edelbrock carb linkage for the max pump shot.
2 Look for anything that could allow a vacuum leak.
3 Is the distributor connected to the correct vacuum source?
4 Look at how your distributor's vacuum advance and mechanical advance are coming in.
5 Try disconnecting and plugging the vacuum advance line and re-adjusting the distributor timing.
6 The Edelbrock carb adjusting kit can be helpful to.
 

1. Done.  Maybe I can 'fab something to give it a bigger stroke/shot?
2. Checked everywhere.  And with all of the intakes and 'carbs I've swapped out over the years you'd think the problem would've been fixed or gotten worse, but it remains the same.
3. Yes
4. How so?
5. Tried that a few years ago, and like Ron says, some cars like the vacuum line connected, some don't; mine doesn't like it as much and the hesitation actually gets worse.
6. Tried just about every needle, jet and spring combination as well as idle screw settings.

Like Ghoste says, I'd like to try a Holley 'carb and try tuning it, but I've already tried different 'carbs including a Holley in the past; the problem always remained...

I'd also like to look into the kickdown linkage, for all the good that may or may not do for me...

[green69rt]

 

[myk]

Checked the throttle linkage for "play" as I started to push the gas pedal but no-the linkage starts to move no matter how lightly I push the gas pedal.  Shift points are within 'spec during part and full throttle.  

The only thing that remains is the "tight converter" theory that some of you guys have mentioned.  I wish I had asked what sort of converter they installed during the 727's rebuild all those years ago...

[green69rt]

Ok, so you've eliminated some items.  Seeing all the replies, I would also look at the converter.  Tough road to go down.  Keep us up to date.  Does anyone know of any method to test the converter without taking the car apart??  Is there a way of looking at the thing through the bell housing shield??  Anything???

[Ghoste]

Do an old fashioned brakes on stall check?