CAM Questions for a 505 stroked 440

[john108]

I have been a member of this board for about 6 years since I started looking into restoring my charger.  I have followed most threads and asked my share of dumb questions while I was compiling a list for the engine parts, and purchasing many.  I am ready to execute now. (major components include: Edelbrock Performer RPM 440 Heads-60929; Holley Street Dominator  300-14; Proform 950  67202; MSD-6420 6AL with Rev Limiter.)

Based on the information I gathered and received, the recommended CAM for this build was a solid flat tappet COMP XS290S with a lesser performing XS282S as an alternate.

I have recently attended many custom car shows and talked with many people with high performance engines and practically everybody says go with a roller cam and if I limit the RPM below 6000-6500, go hydraulic. 
I thought I knew what I was going to do but now I think I should re-consider. 

I was just talking with a guy that has a 408 cu-in 630 HP engine in a Nova.  The engine sounded good and had no vibration that I could see.  He was running a Lunati hydraulic roller cam and has 15 in. of vacuum & doesn't ping (91 Octane) with 11 to 1 CR.

Was I going down the wrong path and is a hydraulic roller cam a better choice, as any racing I do will be rare and the RPM will be limited?  Although he didn't recommend it, Wayne Smothers, on his DVD, made a good case for this type of cam.

If you agree that a hydraulic roller cam would be a good option for me, please suggest cams that we can look at and possibly discuss.

Thank you, John

[Challenger340]

I agree that an HR profile...."may" be a viable option for you ?
that said,
Every time I look into them...I just have not personally run into any HR profile Data for BB Mopar applications, that I liked enough, or saw enough gains on my wave simulations to justify Dyno testing any, so I can't help with any Rec's.
I better bite the bullet and try one soon.....

I REALLY wish somebody would chime in with ACTUAL DYNO DATA on some BB Mopar HR profiles they have tried ??

Are your Eddy Heads "Ported" on the 505 ?
What Rod Length ?
How much Compression ?
How sloppy are your 40 year old BB Mopar Lifter Bores ?? Good shape or loose ??
...think "Oil Pressure" here... as what the HR Lifter DEPENDS upon for Valvetrain stability.... against the increased V/Spring Pressures & Rates with the HR ?

[john108]

Bob - The block hasn't been checked yet.  I picked up '11-30-76 440 block from a Chrysler Imperial engine and was told it had 73000 miles on it.  I tried to mike the piston bores and they didn't appear to have ware.

My e-heads haven't been touched yet.  I was looking at the kits with 7.100 rod length, compression 10.3 to 10.5. Melling High Vol Oil Pump   MELM63HV.

The following link discussed a comparison of solid vs roller cams.  You will understand it better than I did:
http://www.dragzine.com/tech-stories/engine/dyno-shootout-solid-roller-vs-hydraulic-roller/

[Cooter]

No rec.but, the way I understand it is it all depends on how much you Want to be going in the engine as to soild vs hydraulic rollers.
Solid rollers imo, are not for any serious street vehicle due to lifter problems from huge spring pressures.
I ran a bunch of different hyd. Rollers in the 5.0 Ford, but I didn't have to retro anything and was fine. A 650HP 408 is a fairly stout grind I'm sure. That's partially why it lives on pump fuel.

[john108]

Cooter - I am a little dense this morning.  I think that I am interpreting what you are telling me is that solid rollers require more maintenance than hydraulic rollers.  That follows with what I understood from Wayne Smother's DVD where he stated that a solid rollers may need replacement at about 3000 miles, for the reasons you stated, but the hydraulic rollers might last 20000 miles.  Cooter, am I understanding you correctly?  Wayne also indicated that springs would also wear out, for reasons you also stated (higher spring pressures due to the higher lift??  and/or does the hydraulics require using higher spring pressures also??).

As far as the 408, he told me that his VooDoo cam has 245 duration, .600 lift, and LSA 108.  I don't know the open/closing timings, but his engine runs smooth and claims to have 15 inches of vacuum.

[Cooter]

Well, it is my understnding that hydraulic roller lifters are heavy and require higher spring pressures to maintain valveetrain stability at all. Lift certainly plays a factor in how well your valvetrain wears on the street. I refuse to pay out the ass for roller stuff, only to have it wear out/break, etc. In less than a couple years which may or may not be 20k miles.

I can't figure out how my old white car with a wolverine WG1087 hyd. Roller lasted over 40k HARD miles and the stock roller lifters had over 100k on em when I put that cam in, and brand new roller stuff breaks on the street. Granted, it was only a .534 lift cam but still.

[Challenger340]

Bob - The block hasn't been checked yet.  I picked up '11-30-76 440 block from a Chrysler Imperial engine and was told it had 73000 miles on it.  I tried to mike the piston bores and they didn't appear to have ware.

My e-heads haven't been touched yet.  I was looking at the kits with 7.100 rod length, compression 10.3 to 10.5. Melling High Vol Oil Pump   MELM63HV.

The following link discussed a comparison of solid vs roller cams.  You will understand it better than I did:
http://www.dragzine.com/tech-stories/engine/dyno-shootout-solid-roller-vs-hydraulic-roller/

Geez, I'm getting old an grumpy.....that's why I hate reading those stupid SALES articles, nothing but PROPAGANDA designed to hype Hydraulic Roller Camshafts !

Of Course the damn thing made the same power with THAT  HR Roller Vrs the same size Solid Roller
because,
and here's the "switch" in the uptake that I think most reading the Article are missing....
BOTH Camshafts are too BIG for the Damn Engine/Cylinder Head/Dynamic C.R. Factor
which
causes the "mushier" Hydraulic Roller to run smaller, and with slower ramps anyways even on the same .050 duration... less overcamming the Combo=power "up"
compared to
The Solid Roller "stays" too Big, too fast ramps = Power "Down" in that combo !

But Yessiree Jimbob...UHUH lookee here Goober...the "HR" matched the "Solid" Roller.

Apologies, I shouldn't cloud the issue for you, I just haven't "seen" any HR's that got me puffy in a BB Mopar long Rod/small port combo, but nor have I tested any !

The one part of the Article I DID ENJOY, was them clearly outlining the distinction in Solid Rollers Camshafts between "STREET",  and "RACE" Profiles concerning reliability.
It's amazing how many people, with very limited skillsets that are out there, and do NOT realize the difference, and believe they are "good to go" with some pretty aggressive "Race" Solid Roller Profiles for "Street" use.....total Naïve regarding Thermally Stabilizing anything or Valve Lash........then at some point later on.....wonder why they have an Oil Pan full of Roller Lifter Trunions & " Needles".....  DUH ?? WUHAAPON ??
Not saying the more aggressive Race Roller Profile can NOT be run on the Street.....they can..and I have myself...just saying...the amount of Continuity, knowledge, and commitment to maintenance to do so is far beyond what, IMO, any "normal" Hotrodder is prepared to undertake in education & work, and still actually DRIVE his Street Car regularily.
Even WITH pressure fed Trunions !

Hey John,
pm Ron (Firefighter3931)here,  and get his take...if anybody knows he will.
or,
Maybe check out Moparts....some smart cookies over there.....see if anybody over there has some HARD DYNO DATA on some HR's they have tried ??

Bob out

[firefighter3931]

John,

Keep in mind that comparing a SB chevy to BB Chrysler is apples vs oranges. The key difference is the weight difference in the valvetrain. The lighter the components, the higher it will rev without valve float. A SB chevy has smaller/lighter diameter lifters, shorter/lighter pushrods, smaller/lighter valves and smaller/lighter rocker arms. All of these weights combined stack up to a big weight advantage and consequently increased stability at higher engine speeds. 

From the dyno data i've seen, the hyd roller starts to become unstable at 5500-5800 rpm with BB Chrysler stuff. The more agressive roller cam profiles require increased spring pressures to keep the valvetrain stable but that increased pressure combined with the added bulk of the valvetrain components limits the rpm capability.....it's a catch 22 scenario. 

A build like yours is a descent candidate for a hyd roller cam because it will be RPM limited due to the std port cylinder head with a 500in displacement. The smallish ports will make fantastic torque and it will have excellent throttle response but you won't be making any power above 6000 rpm so there will be no reason to rpm the engine any higher. In reality it's probably be closer to 5500 rpm due to the port dimensions and pump gas compression so the hyd roller is worth considering.

That being said, the solid flat tappet can make the same and in some cases more power for a lot less money. Personally, I prefer a solid lifter because they are much more stable and you never have to worry about lifter collapse. 


Ron