Alternator Question (not charging the battery):

[Pete in NH]

Hi Aaron,

Something really strange is going on here! This is going to take some more investigating to find out what it is. Does your multimeter have an R X 1 scale on it so we can do some basic continuity tests. Also, please confirm that of the two connection on the alternator field terminal one goes to ground and the other goes to the voltage regulator.

A puff of smoke no matter how small is never a good thing when talking about electrical items. Also, the car should not have quit running when you connected those two wires at the regulator. Would it be possible to take some pictures of the back of the alternator and the regulator wiring.A picture is always worth a thousand words.

[Captain D]

Hi there Pete,

I agree, if you guys are stumped; I'm even more so,  . But just to clarify, the little puff of smoke was not in or around the engine bay, but out of the exhaust tips but still - I had never seen that before. But yes, just to clarify, one short blue wire goes onto a ground to the back of the alternator and the longer green wire runs to the left-hand side of the voltage regulator. This was the end wire-terminal that I replaced last night after work (the terminal that connects to the left-hand side of the regulator with the small screw connection). But, I didn't see any RX1 scale reading option on the multimeter. 

I will be happy to try to take a few pics for you, but I've never posted pics and reduced their size on the forum before so I will try. But, in the meantime, would you be willing to lend me your email address and I can simply forward you some pictures so that I can get them to you faster (if that is an option)...?

Thank you again and I was going to drive the car to the garage on Monday, but I'll wait to get your take on it first.
Aaron

[Pete in NH]

Hi Aaron,

I'm not stumped yet, just don't have enough information to see what's going on! Check your private messages, I'll send you my email address for those photos. Send a photo of your multimeter too.

[Captain D]

Hi there Pete,

Just emailed a few pics to your address. If are in need of any more, please let me know and I realize that you guys are pretty good here; I have total faith you guys! 
High regards,
Aaron

[flyinlow]

My dad and I then proceeded to do the test you recommended (unplugging the two wires that run to the regulator and briefly touching them together to see if the readings went any higher on the battery/multimeter). Again, still nothing. In fact, when we did that, the car simply shut itself off. After reconnecting those two wires back onto the regulator, I then restarted the car again just to make sure that I didn't short anything out. Thankfully, everything seemed to be okay.

Originally I thought you had the more modern alternator due to the summit reference picture. You have the older style single wire from the alternator to mechanical regulator.
You said  that when you connected  the blue power to the regulator wire and the green (I think) wire that feeds the alternator field circuit, there was no change in system voltage. With the regulator leads connected together the alternator should go to full charge. At idle stock alternators are probably charging close to fully anyway. As you increase rpm the regulator will reduce current to the alternator field circuit to regulate output. You also said the engine quit , I am guessing because you shorted the ignition out. This should not of happened. The blue wire to the regulator is spiced to the blue wire to your ignition ballast resistor.  Is the green wire from the regulator to the alternator field grounded somehow?

[resq302]

Hi Aaron,

Here are the pics you sent me to resize and post for you.  I will try and clean up the old alternator that I have and see if it is good or not.

[resq302]

pic of Aarons regulator on the firewall.

[Pete in NH]

Aaron,

Thanks for sending the pictures, very nice GL by the way!

Okay, lets do some troubleshooting with your meter. First, set the meter to the 200 ohm range. The ohms section of the meter is marked with the symbol that sort of looks like an upside down U. Next touch the two meter leads together and the meter should read zero or very close to it, a couple of tenths of an ohm max.

Now, with the ignition key in the off position, and disconnect the negative battery cable just to be safe, disconnect the green field wire from the regulator on the back of the alternator. Place one meter lead on the field connection where the green wire went and the other meter lead to ground on the alternator case. you should read something between 4 and 8 ohms or so. You should NOT read zero or a few tenths of an ohm. Next, disconnect the other field terminal from ground and measure again from the alternator case to this field terminal. You should not get any ohms reading. Finally, measure between the two field terminals and you should see 4 to 8 ohms.

Next, measure between the green wire from the regulator and ground and let me know what reading you get.

I think there is a possibility that one of the field terminalshas already been grounded internally in the alternator by the alternator re-builder if you specified an alternator for a 69 model car. If that is so you had a 50-50 chance when you installed the alternator of connecting your regulator output to ground. Anyway, these measurements will comfirm what's going on.

[Captain D]

Hi guys,

Thank you for posting the pics and thank you Pete for the compliment, my friend  .

I just got back from the garage. Now, I may have to alter my thread to read: "Alternator Question (Charging the battery too much)."

As for the grounding issue, you're absolutely right - the grounding wire configuration was incorrectly installed on the car and the diodes registered as "failed" when they did the alternator test. They altered the wiring that runs from a newly installed 60 amp alternator to the regulator and the amperage is registering just fine now (57 amps) and it is finally recharging the battery.

However, now the battery is getting too much voltage charge in that it was reading 16V and the ammeter was reading +20 to +40 range (even after they recharged the battery since I essentially ran off of it in order to drive it to the garage). It was dang near pegged to the right when given higher RPMs. Seeing how I didn't want to blow either my new battery or alternator, we simply unhooked the new line (from the alternator to the regulator) and I drove back home off my battery again since they couldn't do anymore for it).

The only thing that we could come up with was for me to recharge the battery after driving the car back home, try another voltage regulator, and see if there is any change on the multimeter across the battery after starting the car. If the regulators are good, we were thinking as to what else could be a problem in limiting that much voltage to the battery now. Its trying to find that happy medium in before we had no power going to the battery, now we have too much,  .

Thank you again for your time and input in this circus,  
Aaron
     

[Pete in NH]

Aaron,

Well, it sounds like you're making some progress. If indeed the regulator output was grounded due to the alternator hook up on the field terminals there is a good chance the regulator got blown in the process. I would bet the output transistor in the regulator got fried and shorted putting the full battery voltage on the field. That would give you the 16 volts and above you are seeing across the battery. And, yes you don't want to run it that way you will cook your new battery.

Sorry to say it, but I think your going to need another regulator. You can try putting your ohm meter across the two regulator terminals with the car off and the regulator wire to the field disconnected as it is now. Zero ohms or a real low ohm reading would mean the regulator output is likely shorted.

[Captain D]

Hi Pete - I put another regulator on there (my older one) but it too may have been toasted as its not 'regulating' anything either. Since both were used to see if they helped to make a difference, you could be right; it may be worthwhile to start fresh and see what happens. Other than that, we're unsure what else to look for regarding the wires. While I'm at it, it may be worthwhile to finally get one of those Mopar regulators we've been talking about,  .

Thank you again and I look forward to keeping in touch,
Aaron

[Dino]

$27 and they even ship it for free.  Mine will arrive sometime today.

http://www.jegs.com/i/Mopar+Performance/312/P4529794/10002/-1

[Captain D]

Hi guys,

If I did go with one of the Mopar regulators and pig-tail conversion units, since I've never done something like this before, is there a tutorial on here that you know of or would you be willing to walk me through how to do it so that I can learn how to do it myself? I'm curious to see what all is involved...

Thank you again for the time and input,
Aaron

[myk]

15, 16 volts?  Let's take a moment to take a look at something else here. 

Are you still running the factory setup with the charging system directly connected to the ammeter gauge?  Do you still have the factory wiring as well?  Even when these charging systems worked properly there was always the chance of the ammeter melting and an electrical fire ensuing.  If you're truly running 15, 16 volts through your electrical system that could be a a real hazard for your car; this problem could be even worse when you consider that the factory wiring is over 40 years old-it's a fire waiting to happen.  For safety's sake, take the time to perform the ammeter bypass 'mod; our cars aren't designed to take that kind of voltage...

[Pete in NH]

Hi Aaron,

The conversion to the newer regulator is an easy one. First though, with the alternator issues you've had I would first make sure one of the field terminals is not internally grounded in the alternator. The mopar electronic regulator requires a true floating field two wire alternator. Take you ohm meter and set it to the 200 ohm range. disconnect both field wire connections  and measure between the alternator case and each field terminal connection on the alternator. You should not get a reading in either position.

To add the newer regulator you have to add one wire. Wire the blue wire on the pig tail connector for the new regulator to the blue wires on the existing regulator connector and also add a new blue wire from this point to one of the alternator field terminals. Then wire the green pigtail connector wire to the existing green wire to the other alternator field connection. When you mount the new regulator make sure the case is grounded well.

That's all there is to it.

[Captain D]

Hi guys,

Yeah, the name of the game is to definitely get the voltage between the 13V and 14V, for sure,  .

Hi Pete - thank you for the tutorial on the conversion steps - I wrote them down  . As a side note, I did contact the ebay seller that sells the electronic regulator a few days back (that I had posted earlier under my thread) and he was kind enough to send me another one free of charge. In the meantime, while I am waiting for it to arrive, I did find a points-style regulator and installed it. Everything was hooked up right, but when I turned the key onto the 'on' position the ammeter needle completely pegged to the left and stayed there (in the -40 region). Since I was unfamiliar with that reading, as I've never seen that before, I decided to play it safe and not try to turn the engine over. On my alternator, there is a green wire that runs from one of the field terminals (on the alternator) to the "field connection" on the regualtor. On the other field terminal on the alternator, the shop just installed a new line (and clip) that runs from it to the ignition/blue wire just off the regulator.

I was hoping to try out the points style to see if it was a regulator issue before the new electronic unit arrived (probably on Thursday), but I didn't know what to make of that pegging needle on the ammeter,  . I'm concerned that even when the new electronic regulator arrives, things may still not be right. Is there anything that I can check, alter, etc. to see if I can get a head-start on this issue before the appropriate regulator arrives? If you would like more pics, just let me know and I will be happy to provide them.

Thank you again for the guidance in this circus,
Aaron  

[resq302]

Aaron,

Sounds like you have a direct short somewhere since my ammeter on my charger only goes to something like -20 when I have the key in the "on" position and not running.  I also notice that it goes even more to the left should I step on the brakes or have my lights on.  But it should not go all the way to the left of the neg. range just with the key in the on position and not running.

[Captain D]

Hi Brian,

In running a ground wire for my new alternator; which only has one bolt stud at the bottom - would you feel that I could simply run a ground wire from this main bolt (at the bottom of the alternator that shares both the purple and black wires in the pictures) to any close bolt within the range of the alternator? If so, what size wire gauge would you recommend for this new ground wire that I'm about to make, if I may ask further please?

Thank you again (and everyone) for your time and putting up with my many annoyances as we try to wrap this situation up,
Aaron

[Dino]

Aaron, there's plenty annoyances on this site, you are not one of them.  Ask away, as much as you want.

[resq302]

Hi Brian,

In running a ground wire for my new alternator; which only has one bolt stud at the bottom - would you feel that I could simply run a ground wire from this main bolt (at the bottom of the alternator that shares both the purple and black wires in the pictures) to any close bolt within the range of the alternator? If so, what size wire gauge would you recommend for this new ground wire that I'm about to make, if I may ask further please?

Thank you again (and everyone) for your time and putting up with my many annoyances as we try to wrap this situation up,
Aaron

Aaron,

Do NOT connect a ground wire or that wire from the other field to the stud where that purple and black wire is.  That is the hot / pos. wire for the alternator and you will likely do some major damage if you do not blow the fuseable link first.  On the round back alternators, the other alternator brush (the one that does not have the green wire going to it) had gotten attached directly to the alternator casing which was ground.

[Pete in NH]

Aaron,

As Brian said DO NOT connect a ground wire to the stud with the black and violet wire on it. You mentioned the shop installed yet another new alternator on Monday, is it the same type as shown in your earlier picture? You also posted that the shop added a wire from the blue ignition terminal on the regulator to one of the alternator field connections, if so that wire is NOT correct for the older points style regulator or the EBay type regulator and is very likely the reason you are seeing the amp meter peg at -40. Maybe the clearest thing to do is post or send me a picture of the new alternator and wiring.

It's tough to read some of your posts and hear you are going through alternators, regulators and I'm sure money at an alarming rate. I'm not trying to be critical of anyone here but, I'm not sure the shop you are dealing with knows very much about these old Chrysler systems. So, please before you go through any more parts or money- disconnect both field terminals and use your ohm meter to see if one of them is internally grounded as I have outlined above. If your alternator is a true 69 round back one of the field brush connections will be internally grounded. The other field connection will go to your green wire and the regulator field connection. This will be true for both the EBay regulator and the old points type regulator. Once we know if one of the field connections in internally grounded or not it will be easy to get this thing hooked up correctly and working.

[resq302]

Pete,

I was talking with Aaron on the phone last night and he said that the shop hooked up the second field wire to the blue wire on the IGN side of the voltage regulator.  I am willing to lay money that is the cause of the -40 amp gauge draw as that would essentially be almost a direct ground.  Without seeing the back of the alternator it is hard to say how they (rebuild company) did the two brushes.  I have seen where rebuild kits that I get when I rebuild my alternator has the two plastic insulators in the kit where as only one is needed.  If the rebuild company added the insulator to the second field wire that should be direct grounded to the casing, then either Aaron will need to remove that insulator or hook that second field wire to a ground such as a bolt on the engine or other place which would act as a ground.  Back when I first got my charger, I had an incorrectly rebuilt alt on there and had the two field connectors.  One with the green wire that went to the regulator and the other basically had a jumper wire that went from the second connector to a solderless connector that went through the alt. pivot bolt which acted as a ground.

[Captain D]

Hi Pete and Brian,

I emailed you guys two recent pics of the new (red) wire that runs to the 'ignition' side of the regulator (that the shop installed on my car this past Monday), as well as the newly installed alternator. I greatly appreciate your letting me know about the stud where the black and purple wires connect to - I wouldn't run a ground without double-checking with you guys first, hands-down,  .

As you can see in the pics that I had sent to your emails, the new red wire is disconnected from the alternator field terminal (with electrical tape secured at the end) and I've never ran the car with it installed so as to protect both my new alternator and battery. Brian's statement of, "the second field wire that should be direct grounded to the casing," was exactly how my old alternator was set-up (the one with the fried diodes) but the one installed on my car now doesn't have that extra bolt stud so that I could simply run a short wire from onto a field terminal - as it is pictured above in this thread of my old alternator set-up. In that particular pic, you can clearly see the short blue wire for my ground going from that small bolt onto a field terminal, but with the new alternator - there is no such bolt (only two field terminals and the stud for the battery).

Although I sent a few pics of the alternator as it is installed in my car, I realize that it can be a little hard to see of the back so I found the part number online; which has some good pics of the back:

http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/buy/products/34637-alternator-remanufactured-60-amps-by-toughone-part-p7001-alternators.html#

Just so that we're on the same page...you guys feel that I should remove that new red wire altogether that the shop recently put on, run a short ground wire from that field terminal (where the new red wire would have ran to), and have this new ground wire that we're about to make go to a dead bolt within the engine bay. Is that correct? If so, what size ground wire would you suggest that I use and how best to remove that blue clip that adjoins both the new red wire and small blue wire up near the regulator (the one that the shop recently installed)? I think it just opens up, but I just like to double-check with you guys first before I tackle anything. As a side note, if this is what needs to be done, this basically puts me back to the original set-up as before I went to the garage on Monday and when the car wasn't getting any charge to the battery. But, I realize that the difference now is that we changed out an alternator with bad diodes and a poorly functioning regulator combo. But, like you noted Pete, before we go any further, we'll do a test to see if it is internally grounded... 


Thank you again for your time and guidance,
Aaron

 

[Pete in NH]

Brian and Aaron,

Brian, Aaron sent me some photos of the new alternator and a web link to the Advanced Auto Parts unit he has on the car. The web link clearly shows one brush holder connected to ground through a metal clip and from Aaron's photo it appears to be the brush holder the shop chose to run the red wire they added from the ignition run circuit to. So, as you said they had a direct short to ground.

Aaron, with that alternator you need to remove that red wire! Again, please use your ohm meter to confirm that connector tab is really grounded.  If it is grounded, don't connect anything to it. Then use only the green wire to your new EBay regulator when you get it to the other field terminal. You don't need to add any additional ground wires if that brush holder is already grounded.

That new blue connector that the shop added looks like a type that should just unsnap and open up, you can then remove it.

[Captain D]

Hi there Pete,

Thank you for taking the time to check out the pics that I had sent. For the multimeter, I looked for an upside down 'U' - the only thing that I had seen that was close was the battery cable symbol and the numbers ending in the letter 'K.' I put it on the 200K setting, which read:

1.) Touching the two leads together: 00.0 (then, I went over to disconnect the negative battery cable),
2.)  Disconnected the green wire at the alternator terminal. Put one lead onto that alternator terminal and one to the casing of the alternator for a ground: it read: 00.0.
3.) I then repeated the same steps with the second terminal where the new red wire was intended to go, and, it too was: 00.0.
4.) I then put one lead on one terminal and the other lead on the second terminal across each other. Again, 00.0.
5.) I then had the green wire re-installed at the regulator point and found a ground just to see if anything different would show by chance, and it too was 00.0.

So, in a nutshell, everything was 00.0 all around. If you guys need me to do any more tests/readings, please let me know and what you may think based on these numbers. Based on this info; it looks like I may have to make a ground/jumper wire to run off of the second field terminal (where they had the red wire intended to go) onto a dead bolt...

Best regards,
Aaron