Alternator Question (not charging the battery):

[Captain D]

Hello all,

First off, I should state that mine is a 69' Base Charger, 383 4rrl BB, non-A/C car using a 60 amp alternator(s). Basically, this is the 3rd alternator we've tried so far. The first two were from Summit Racing. The first Summit alternator wasn't re-charging the battery at all - thinking that it was defective, we exchanged it for another one with the same part number. The second one arrived from Summit and it registered too high amount of voltage to the battery (multimeter registered in the 15.1 to 15.8V range). While driving to my buddy's shop, the ammeter was bouncing all over the place. I'm assuming that since the second alternator from Summit was cranking out, perhaps, a little higher amps/volts to the battery, it tried to compensate for that lack of power somewhere on the car where the original problem exists...? After seeing the 15V range on the meter, however, we swapped out yet another alternator on the car today (from Advanced Auto) and it too wasn't charging the battery.

The one from Advance was my back-up and when I had it installed on the car several weeks ago, I had it tested twice with good numbers (in the 14V range) and it performed rather well. So, needless to say, I was more than a little surprised to see that my good 'back-up' alternator was not charging (re-charging) the battery, as well. All what is new under the hood includes: New Interstate battery, new voltage regulator for electronic ignition, coil, starter relay, bulkhead connectors cleaned, tune-up plugs & wires, electronic ignition, all with good grounds, etc.

I was able to drive the car home from a friend's shop, but the car was clearly running off the battery as its power source. I was told that it could run up to two hours off the battery, but I don't want to go too far from home to another shop. Any ideas what it could be and any tests that I could run at home myself before I have to take it somewhere altogether? I do have a spare electronic regulator. Worthwhile to swap it out? If so, what number should the regulator read at?  

Here was the alternator from Summit that I recently removed:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-812107

'Thank you' for any and all replies,
Aaron

[resq302]

Aaron,

What makes you think it is not charging the battery?  Are you getting below 13 volts at the battery with the engine running?

[Captain D]

Hi Brian,

Thank you for your reply. With having gone through a variety of alternators by this point, lol, we've noticed that whenever we put the car in gear (mostly reverse), the ammeter dips down to the - 20 region. Then, we'll do a test by removing the positive terminal on the battery and, within seconds, the car shuts itself off.

I did some searches and I read some material that stated an alternator that is too strong, (either with the amps/volts) it can exhaust the voltage regulator to the point that it fails - even in a brief amount of time. As a result, it will not allow the alternator to charge (re-charge) the battery properly. We knew that our back-up alternator functioned very well prior to putting on the chrome one from Summit., so with it being back on the car now - I thought that maybe I would put a new elect. regulator on to see if things can go back to normal as they were before the Summit alternator 'possibility' toasted our regulator,  .

Also, we tested the battery when the car was running and the multimeter registered a solid 12.6 volts. That was part of the reason why I felt that the battery wasn't being charged properly. The only thing that I can come up with at this point was that, since the Summit alternator was cranking out close to 16 volts, a toasted regulator could be the problem. But, I'll make the swap tomorrow and see what happens. I just hope that it didn't mess up my new battery too...

Just didn't know if anyone had any similar experiences or if I am off-track altogether...
Aaron

 

[Charger_Fan]

Alternators usually crank out near 14 volts at a given RPM (normally in the 13.5 range), it's the responsibility of the regulator to reign in the extra voltage & keep the charging system in check.
One small question, is your regulator getting a good ground to your firewall?
Reading your post, it sounds like your regulator may not be functioning properly.
Run a good ground wire from one of your regulator mounting bolts to a wiper motor mounting bolt, that may cure this problem.
From this pic, you can barely make out my grounding fix from what...132 years ago? Okay, maybe it was nearer to 1990, but still. Pardon my dirty engine bay.

The yellow 12 gauge (overkill) crimp connectors with black wire between was my "FIX" that day. Today I'd go more subtle with this fix. Gee, I see I even left a loop in the wire in case I needed extra slack one day to move it to where?? Whatever I was thinking that day, I'm sure it made sense at the time.

[Captain D]

Thank you for the reply. As for grounds, everything is good with very nice clean contacts plus I swapped out the electronic voltage regulator today with a new one. However, everything still seems to be about the same in that there is no charge of the battery. Just as it was yesterday; in the -20 region.

I had the car running for about 5 minutes today after I made the swap, but I'm thinking that perhaps it wasn't enough time to allow the alternator to recharge the battery seeing how I drove it home from the shop for about 30 minutes with the power source running off the battery. I wonder how long it takes an alternator, on average, to recharge a battery in this circumstance? Yesterday the multimeter read a solid 12.6 and today a solid 12.4 while the engine was running. I'll look into getting the battery fully charged and see if it makes any difference/change in the readings...    

[charger Downunder]

Put the battery on a charger to charge it not in a charger.

[flyinlow]

  Always best to slow charge the battery in your garage with a small battery charger, then with the alternator.

Sounds like a regulator problem or wiring. The isolated field (1970 &up) alternator has two wires for the field in the alternator. One provides system voltage to the field . the other returns the field current to the regulator where it varies the amount of current it lets go to ground, keeping the alternator voltage where it should be. For the regulator to do this it needs a source of system voltage which it gets thru the blue wire and a good ground to the chassie. It also needs good wires and clean terminal connections.  Could be the regulator.

[Captain D]

Hey all,

Thank you for the reply and good info on charging the battery, I'll definitely remember those tips,  .

On the topic of the battery - I was about to pick up a charger for the battery to do just what you guys suggested, and since I had some extra time today, I decided to simply take the battery with me to get tested. Since the Summit alternator was pushing into the 15V range, I was also curious to see if any damage had been done to the battery.   But. they came back with excellent readings and stated that there was no need to charge it as it was good to go (12.66V). Thinking too that there could be a wire(s) with an exposed area, I spent about two hours combing through all of the wires with a good flashlight (and electrical tape in hand), but everything seems to be very clean with no bare spots nor burn marks that needed attention as far as I could tell. I did make an appointment with a shop this Monday. So, if I can't find the culprit then I'll let them hook it up to a machine and see if something becomes evident that I wasn't able to find with the naked eye on any of the wires.

With all that being said (solid grounds, terminals, battery, bulkheads, and new electronic regulator installed), the only thing left for me to do at this point may be to possibly look into yet another alternator as my 'back-up' could have been faulty to begin with - even though it registered fine just 2 or 3 weeks ago  . Especially since if the engine is running and I'm only getting 12V (rather than in the 13V to 14V range), I don't know what else to look into other than a new alternator altogether. Anyone here ever use the name-brand, 'Tough-One,'  before just out of curiosity? Although I certainly realize it may not be needed at this point, I can always slowly charge the battery over time to see if it happens to make any difference with this current alternator as discussed already...?

Thank you again for the tips/suggestions,
Aaron

     

[myk]

Highly improbable that all three of those alternators are the problem here.  Besides, as others have said it's the regulator's job to decide how much voltage runs through the system.  Is that 2nd regulator new?  Sounds like it's used and it could be shot as well.  Also, I'd get those 'alts checked out; any parts store should be able to tell you if they're good or not...

[Pete in NH]

Hi Aaron,

Sounds like the alternator system in your Charger is still giving you a tough time as it was several weeks back.

I would suggest you still buy yourself a small battery charger in the 4 to 6 amp range and recharge your battery. Just measuring the battery terminal voltage is not a good indicator of the battery charge state unless it is almost completely discharged. A small battery charger is a very useful thing to have around and you can use it to keep your battery up during the winter months when the car is not driven often.

If you're measuring 12.4 to 12.6 volts across the battery with the engine running the battery is not being charged the voltage should be 13.8 to 14.4 volts. The Summit Alternator you referenced is a standard Chrysler two field wire unit and should be used with the Chrysler electronic regulator shown in Charger_Fan's post. Is this the regulator you have on your car? If so, this is a fairly simple system and rather than keep changing alternators and regulators some simple trouble shooting steps should lead to a solution to your problem. Let me know what regulator is on the car and I'll be happy to walk you though those steps. Your 69 did not come from the factory with a two field wire alternator so at some point it was upgraded.

[flyinlow]

 
Do you have a second voltmeter? compare them. If not, can you use your voltmeter to check a modern car's voltage. Roughly 12.2 -12.6 V engine off  14.0-14.8 running.

My sons '70 Charger idles at 13.4v , at 2500rpm 14.4v . 60 amp alternator and the ignition system was the only load besides charging the battery.


A 2 amp/ 10amp battery charger handles most jobs. Might look for a charger that can handle glass matt batteries if you ever want to use  a newer style battery like an Optima.

[Captain D]

Hello all and I appreciate the time in offering your input,  

Hi Pete, yes, we were about to install the regulator as pictured in Charger_Fan's post (when I initially began to have a charging problem), but everything seems to function perfectly fine there for several weeks. At the time, I had this regulator below and I was a little weary about moving anything around since things were good:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/181167146052?item=181167146052&viewitem=&vxp=mtr

I've read some good reviews on this regulator, and, since mine was already fitted to accommodate that set-up (plus, everything was working great with the alternator) I simply kept everything as is. Its just odd that by merely swapping out from a higher voltage alternator (15V) back to 14V would throw everything out of whack. I was hesitant to post this problem here yet again on account that I hate to waste everyone's time that could be spent helping someone else out. I suppose, I should just get the regulator as we discussed a few weeks back and call it done (hopefully),  .

Thank you again for your time,
Aaron

[flyinlow]

Guess I'm a little confused. You have a '69 (old regulator). The picture shows a newer style electronic regulator. I assume it was updated?

I think the regulator on ebay is an electronic replacement for the old mechanical regulator. Don't think it will work with out rewiring or changing to an old style alternator. 

[charger Downunder]

Guess I'm a little confused. You have a '69 (old regulator). The picture shows a newer style electronic regulator. I assume it was updated?

I think the regulator on ebay is an electronic replacement for the old mechanical regulator. Don't think it will work with out rewiring or changing to an old style alternator. 

The engine bay pic is the regulator he needs to buy for the two field alt

[y3chargerrt]

The E bay regulator will replace the old mechanical regulators without any wiring modifications.

[myk]

I've read some good reviews on this regulator, and, since mine was already fitted to accommodate that set-up (plus, everything was working great with the alternator) I simply kept everything as is. Its just odd that by merely swapping out from a higher voltage alternator (15V) back to 14V would throw everything out of whack. I was hesitant to post this problem here yet again on account that I hate to waste everyone's time that could be spent helping someone else out. I suppose, I should just get the regulator as we discussed a few weeks back and call it done (hopefully),  .

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but keep in mind that in setups like yours, where the 'alt is externally regulated, it doesn't matter what the advertised rating of the 'alt is because the voltage regulator is supposed to decide how many volts the 'alt will provide; doesn't matter if it's a stock 40 amp or a 130 amp aftermarket piece like in my car, the voltage should be the same. Now, as for having 15 volts run through the system, I'm not surpised if parts were damaged, especially if your car still has electrical pieces that are over 40 years old; there's no way those old parts could handle 15 volts and I'm sure there are new components that aren't designed to handle that many volts either...

[Pete in NH]

Hi Aaron,

I thought you might be still running that E bay regulator as you were when we last discussed this issue. For that regulator to work properly one of the field terminals must be connected to a good ground, the other field terminal connects to the regulator. To check this type of system put your voltmeter across the battery,start the engine and then briefly connect the two wires at the regulator together after unplugging them from the regulator. If the voltage goes up above 16 volts the alternator is good and the problem is a bad regulator. If the voltage across the battery does not go up the problem is a bad alternator or the wiring to the regulator.

The blue wire connected to the ING. terminal of the regulator should have battery voltage on it when the ignition switch is in the run position. The other regulator terminal, the one that goes to the alternator will have something less than battery voltage on it when the engine is running.

For my money I would change the system over to the Chrysler electronic regulator and be done with it. So much of this E bay stuff is cheap Chinese junk that works for a while and then self destructs. I would look at Chrysler P/N 4529794 for a good Mopar regulator that was meant to work with your alternator. Looking at the photos of the E bay regulator you can see the power transistor that does all the work and I'm not sure it is mounted in a way that will allow it to cool itself properly. It's the small black plastic block with three leads on the right hand side. Its job is to control the current to the alternator field and in doing so it burns up some power in the form of heat. If the heat has no where to go the transistor will fail.

[resq302]

Pete,

I have been running one like that is in the picture that Aaron posted in my charger for easily 10 years now and have had no issues so far.  Matter of fact, we just got one of those and put the original regulator cover on it for our GTX.  Love the versatility of stock appearing yet modern tech under a cover.  Similar to the Odyssey battery conversion.

[Captain D]

Hi all,

I was able to borrow a 12V battery charger today, and, after doing a quick test reading on the gauge meter - it showed that the battery is in need of a charging (due in part to my driving the car back home while running off the battery for 25-30 minutes).

I'll do a slow charge on it and see how things go. I realize that this 'may' not be the heart of the problem seeing how I drove the car almost 30 minutes to a friend's house and all the while that high output alternator from Summit (15V) would have been charging the battery, and, making the swap in alternators so soon afterward wouldn't have shown such a low battery reading when we pulled the positive terminal off the battery to see how well the new alternator is holding up; at least I wouldn't think so.

Not sure if this is relevant or not, but I did notice that when I first set out to drive up to his shop with the older Summit alternator in place (15V), when I put it in reverse/idle the ammeter did go slightly into the negative zone (to the left of the '0'), so maybe things weren't getting charged properly on the way up to his garage in the first place  . And, when the key is at the 'on' position just prior to firing it up, I tend to hear a single click noise (sounds like its from the upper firewall and/or alternator region). Just thought that I would throw that little bit of info out there to see if helps to zero in on anything specific...

Thank you Pete for the suggestion on testing whether the issue is with the alternator or regulator. Just so that I do it correctly, you're suggesting that I:

1.) Place the multimeter on the battery terminals in order to get a reading,
2.) Start up the car,
3.) disconnect the two wires on both sides of the regulator,
4.) Then, touch them together to see what the reading is on the multimeter.

If so, I'll get someone there as I may not have enough hands,  . If this is what you're recommending, I certainly will try it if it means getting to the bottom of the issue. However, the only problem that I foresee is that on the right-hand side of the regulator (where it slides onto a male stud, for lack of a better phrase) that female section has a hard plastic boot on it. So, I don't know how good of a reading that I could really get.

I'll take a better look at it tomorrow and in the meantime, I did find the regulator you noted, as well as the conversion wire kit. Summit doesn't have a picture, unfortunately, but I think that this might be it if this is something that I may need:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/dcc-4529794

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/pco-5329pt/overview/

Thank you again for your time and patience as I slowly acquire the tools, etc. in checking this stuff out,
Aaron


   

[myk]

Why don't you just take the 'alt, regulator and the battery to a parts store and have them all tested?

[MaximRecoil]

Why don't you just take the 'alt, regulator and the battery to a parts store and have them all tested?

Parts stores don't always know what they are doing when it comes to testing that stuff. It depends on how well-trained the employee that does the testing is I suppose. The alternator I've had in my Charger since 2011 is one from the junkyard that the local parts store said was no good, after all of the employees stood around the alternator testing machine trying to figure out how to hook it up properly. They tried a few different combinations of connections before declaring it was no good, but they were obviously wrong, seeing as how it charges at 14 - 14.4 volts, and has done so for 2 years now.

I've seen parts store employees fumble with battery tests too. Sometimes they just do a voltage test, and declare it good if it is in the 12.6 volt range, which isn't enough information to declare a battery good.

Also, to the OP, alternators don't do a good job recharging significantly discharged batteries, not even if you drive around for 30 minutes. That's a job for a dedicated battery charger. For example, I bought a new Mopar battery from the dealership a couple of years ago for my 2001 Dakota. That truck doesn't get driven much, and after about a year the battery seemed to be dying; cranking real weakly at times, and sometimes needing a boost from a jump pack to start at all. So I figured that since the battery was still under warranty, I'd take it back to the dealership, about a 30 minute drive. They tested the battery when I got there and it was partially discharged (despite 30 minutes worth of driving with my alternator putting out over 14 volts). So they had to recharge the battery before they could do their battery of tests on it (it took about an hour to recharge fully), and then it came back with a clean bill of health.

When I got back home I decided to do an amp draw test on the truck to see what was going on, and I found that it draws 40 milliamps when just sitting with everything off, which is a little high, but not too out of the ordinary for modern computer controlled vehicles (my '69 Charger has zero draw with everything off, which is as it should be for old vehicles). The problem was that it wasn't being driven enough for the alternator to keep up with the draw, and given enough time, it drained the battery. So I installed a battery disconnect switch, and every time I park it for the night I disconnect the juice. I haven't had any problems with the battery since.

Your first order of business is definitely to make sure your battery is in good health, as that is fundamental to a properly working electrical system.

[Pete in NH]

Hi Brian and Aaron,

Brian, I bet the regulator you put on your Charger ten years ago was still made in the USA. Today, you can't be sure of where things are made but, if it's kind of a low dollar item it's most likely China. The Chinese stuff can be a real crap shoot sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. I'm not saying it's definitely the problem here, but it could be.

Aaron, yes, the steps you listed are what you want to do. If you find the regulator is bad and want to convert it to the Chrysler system the Summit part numbers you listed are the ones you'll need. You can use a short length of wire stripped at both ends to touch the two disconnected regulator wires together.Don't worry about taking up anyones time. Your car isn't working right and we're here to help each other. It might take a few postings and some testing on your part but, we will get it sorted out and your car back on the road. Remember if you really don't know the answer there are no dumb questions. I've been working on these systems for 40 years so they are quite simple to me but, I realize to others they are a complete mystery.

[myk]

Why don't you just take the 'alt, regulator and the battery to a parts store and have them all tested?

Parts stores don't always know what they are doing when it comes to testing that stuff. It depends on how well-trained the employee that does the testing is I suppose. The alternator I've had in my Charger since 2011 is one from the junkyard that the local parts store said was no good, after all of the employees stood around the alternator testing machine trying to figure out how to hook it up properly. They tried a few different combinations of connections before declaring it was no good, but they were obviously wrong, seeing as how it charges at 14 - 14.4 volts, and has done so for 2 years now.

No, they don't, but it's not any worse than swapping out multiple pieces and hoping to see if "something works."

[Captain D]

Thank you Pete for your patience and understanding with everything, my friend  .

I had to put in some extra hours today at my work, so the only progress thus far was my charging up the battery (it only took 15 minutes to charge back up after my 25 minute drive home the other day), and, I did notice a wire that 'may' have been worthwhile swapping out. The wire that I addressed was the wire terminal that has a small screw on the left-hand side of the regulator - I believe it is the green positive wire that runs from the alternator. The old terminal had some slight/minor corrosion and build-up on it so it may not be the culprit, but it certainly looked dated and worthwhile replacing either way. 'If' it wasn't good, then it may explain why power was inhibited from the alternator to the regulator/battery perhaps,  .

I'll fire up the car tomorrow, but if nothing changes then I'll do the multimeter test that you recommended (since I'll have an extra pair of hands to help me) and see if anything becomes evident regarding if the problem is the regulator or alternator. I still have an appointment scheduled this Monday at a garage that is pretty good, so if all else fails - I'll just run off the battery again over to the shop and see if they can zero in on the issue. Hopefully, once they determine what it is, I'll get after those parts,  .

I'll post back again tomorrow on the latest findings, lol. 
Aaron 

[Captain D]

Hello Pete - I started up the car to see if the new terminal on the left-hand side of the regulator made any difference. Other than my seeing a brief puff of blue-like smoke out the back for a quick second; there still was no change.

My dad and I then proceeded to do the test you recommended (unplugging the two wires that run to the regulator and briefly touching them together to see if the readings went any higher on the battery/multimeter). Again, still nothing. In fact, when we did that, the car simply shut itself off. After reconnecting those two wires back onto the regulator, I then restarted the car again just to make sure that I didn't short anything out. Thankfully, everything seemed to be okay.

At this point, I'm not sure exactly what else to look into. It could be the regulator, but I've been replacing them and the problem still persists, so perhaps it is along a wire that I can't see or the alternator (odd as it may be) is need of replacing,  .

Thank you again for the guidance thus far with everything,
Aaron